This merely indicative and not binding right, and if Boris as promised wants to a no deal Brexit do or die as he claims then he just proceeds without a new deal, and we leave on 31st October regardless, as that is the default position enshrined in Law?
Cancelling Brexit will not happen the Tories aren't that stupid, it would decimate their party for a generation.
Heh - Parliament getting out its Black Rod and jamming it firmly up Boris' arse there. Nice work, ladies and gents (and persons of non-binary and indeterminate gender choice, theys, theirs and itses).
Cancelling Brexit will not happen the Tories aren't that stupid, it would decimate their party for a generation.
So will leaving with no deal. The Tories have fooked themselves good and proper, and good fooking riddance. I hope someone marks a grave somewhere so I can dance on it.
I bet the police of Guildford are crapping themselves right now at the prospect of you shouting a slogan or two. Or at least thinking them in a very loud voice in your head. Whilst sitting in your house.
Although I've vehemently opposed the EU since Maastricht, more and more my driving force for wanting to see us leave (or a "no deal" Brexit as they call it now) is to annoy the smug cnuts on this thread and their friends in high places.
Surprising to see f*cking weapons like Gyimah and Djanogly voting alongside the same ones. No surprise not to see Hammond there, the worm, after all his posturing in the media.
It's an important moment for several reasons. Firstly and most importantly, it blocks off the attempt to cancel parliament. Secondly, it shows the institution is ready to stand up for itself in the battles to come with the executive. And there is a third part, which hasn't been properly recognised yet but could prove crucial to the entire Brexit process. The amendment provides usable vehicles for MPs to prevent no-deal.
The Lords amendment, which was bolstered by the anti-prorogation amendment in the Commons, demanded that a minister put down each Northern Ireland report and then allow "a motion in neutral terms" on it.
Back in the day, those neutral motions couldn't be amended, so they were effectively meaningless. MPs need to be able to amend them so they can issue a command to the government.
There was an awful lot of toing and froing over that in the last bout of fighting over May's deal. But then MPs won. They voted to temporarily suspend the Commons rules - called standing orders - preventing amendments on neutral motions. And then they were able to take charge and force the government to do their bidding.
That set-up is now in place in the days leading up to the October 31st deadline. There are now vehicles for MPs to potentially stop no-deal.
This is theoretical. They'd still need to win a vote suspending the standing orders again, for a start. But it has been done before and can be done again. The slow chiselling away of the government advantage has begun. Johnson's ability force through no-deal is significantly diminished.
He hasn't even made it to No.10 yet and already his hasty, foolish promises are starting to fall apart around him. British constitutional democracy is fighting back.
Again, I'm not sure that's right. The rules suggest that Parliament "may" be prorogued before dissolution, and that's what usually happens, but I don't think it's a requirement.
Except, Laz, that, aside from anything else, the majority of Parliament campaigned the 2017 election on manifestos promising to uphold the referendum result.
"spoiled twots who didn't work hard enough at school"
I'm not sure what working hard at school has to do with it, but I certainly didn't. There were much better things to be doing than swotting in the library, thanks.
One thing for which there is certainly no precedent in constitutional law is a LOL as big as the one there's gonna be when Johnson gets no-confed in his first week in the job he's wanted his whole life.
That made no sense (and not just because of the grammatical errors). The clear and overwhelming majority of Parliament was elected on manifestos promising to uphold the referendum.
“He hasn't even made it to No.10 yet and already his hasty, foolish promises are starting to fall apart around him.”
I’m still in the camp that thinks Boris would love to be blocked from a no-deal Brexit.
A chance to go out for the next GE and campaign to “drain the swamp” and get rid of all the “traitors”.
Short of actually delivering Brexit, goading Parliament into actually blocking it has to be his bet chance for a GE victory (without all the nasty consequences).
Parliament isn't going to "block" Brexit is it, it's going to call another vote on it. The most sensible would be an STV referendum between no deal, the May Withdrawal Agreement and remaining in the EU. That may be too sensible and orderly for this Parliament, however, so it might be a GE. V difficult what the outcome of either such vote would be.
a perfectly normal human being, why should May's deal be on the ballot? That can't get through Parliament, she's tried and failed several times, once with the biggest government defeat in history.
Because Parliament isn't making the decision in this scenario, the people are. It's one of the three options that could be delivered immediately upon the result being announced, so it's on the slate. It would be STV so there would be no splitting of the Leave vote, save to the extent it wants to be split (and it does - there are loads of Leavers who'd rather Remain than suffer the chaos of no deal).
Except, Laz, that, aside from anything else, the majority of Parliament campaigned the 2017 election on manifestos promising to uphold the referendum result.
Then let's hope all the Conservative MPs who voted against the withdrawal agreement lose their seats for failing to uphold the referendum result.
Unless your dictionary has the words ‘6 foot 1, 14 stone, life long participant in contact sports, beer drinking bloke’ next to the word ‘effete’ I would suggest you may be wrong.
Short of actually delivering Brexit, goading Parliament into actually blocking it has to be his bet chance for a GE victory (without all the nasty consequences).
OK, so explain how this works.
Parliament blocks no deal. A general election is called. Boris wins a thumping majority. (Lol, yeah, right, but let's just pretend he does.) Boris then has to put his money where his mouth is and take us out with no deal, which he can now do because he's got the numbers.
2nd ref question is obvious: Customs Union or "No Deal" Brexit?
We've already voted to leave the EU so no point asking that one again.
But that was three years ago, when leaving the EU was sold to the people as a magical unicorn deal which would make us better off out than in.
Now it's clear that none of the possible versions of Brexit are better than the deal we already have, the people should be allowed to choose to keep the deal we already have. Denying them that choice would be profoundly undemocratic.
The Ingerland gammon mob, who make up the Brexit Sturmabteilung, are a major security threat. Upper-class clowns like BJ and their lower-middle class running dogs such as the ex-Obersturmfuhrer Francois will be calling for the SA (directly or indirectly) to commit violence.
After leaving on 31 Oct, let's see if there will be a massive hike in inflation and a collapse in the currency.
All of this happened in another European country not so long ago.
Although I've vehemently opposed the EU since Maastricht, more and more my driving force for wanting to see us leave (or a "no deal" Brexit as they call it now) is to annoy the smug cnuts on this thread and their friends in high places.
y do some brexters think no deal will annoy us proud remoaners? as we have been told repeatedly, it’s the default. to the extent any remoaners would be annoyed by no deal (which they of course would be) that’s already happened. ship’s sailed
at the mo all the high places are occupied by brexters
"Parliament blocks no deal. A general election is called. Boris wins a thumping majority. (Lol, yeah, right, but let's just pretend he does.) Boris then has to put his money where his mouth is and take us out with no deal, which he can now do because he's got the numbers.
No?"
Yes. But if he does no deal now he has a minority government, time against him etc. and a risk that we're already seeing the impacts of no deal when the GE vote happens.
If he can call a GE first having somehow managed to spin getting the Brexiters back on board:
1. There is at least a vague chance he might get a negotiated deal (assuming he doesn't have to stand on a no deal basis). One thing today's decision does is give the EU 100% confidence that they don't have to back down from their current position to avoid a no deal brexit as Parliament will do that for them. I'm certainly not saying they would ever ditch the backstop - but they are definitely never going to do it whilst no deal isn't a genuine threat (delaying the pain of a hard border is the only logical reason for them to delay albeit I'm well aware there are a bunch of political concerns that mean they'd probably rather take the pain now).
2. He has (in our imaginary world where he gets a decent majority) a stable majority from which to govern through no deal with a few years of his term left for people to forget about the immediate aftermath (on the basis that a lot of the pain is going to be immediate so things will probably be improving, albeit worse than they would otherwise be, by the time the next election comes round).
No, it's not. But whether we leave with no deal is not going to be determined by whether Parliament is prorogued or not. All the EU has to do is refuse us an extension, then boom! The whole country goes to shit, and I make a shitload of money sweeping up the mess and turning off the lights.
No, but if there is a vote of no confidence and a consequent general election the EU will clearly be willing to put the brakes on until we have figured out who the fook is running the country.
Ray - I'm not disputing that and agree that it is hardly unknown for political parties not to follow through on manifesto promises. I was responding to the very specific point that Laz made about the referendum result carrying "no weight" with Parliament.
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And the riots and civil disorder which will inevitably follow.
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Splendid - some common sense at last
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Oh you and the other armchair activists threatening violence can pipe the fook down.
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(@ Dux, obvs)
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This merely indicative and not binding right, and if Boris as promised wants to a no deal Brexit do or die as he claims then he just proceeds without a new deal, and we leave on 31st October regardless, as that is the default position enshrined in Law?
Cancelling Brexit will not happen the Tories aren't that stupid, it would decimate their party for a generation.
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Come the revolution, m8s...
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I look forward to seeing dux watercannoned live on Channel 4 news.
Finally something we can thank Boris for.
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Here we go with the riots rubbish again.
Check out who riots - is it the old or the young?
Now check out the age groups that most strongly support brexit.
Then be quiet.
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Bring it on.
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Heh - Parliament getting out its Black Rod and jamming it firmly up Boris' arse there. Nice work, ladies and gents (and persons of non-binary and indeterminate gender choice, theys, theirs and itses).
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So will leaving with no deal. The Tories have fooked themselves good and proper, and good fooking riddance. I hope someone marks a grave somewhere so I can dance on it.
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I bet the police of Guildford are crapping themselves right now at the prospect of you shouting a slogan or two. Or at least thinking them in a very loud voice in your head. Whilst sitting in your house.
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Oh no! Not the Brexiteers rioting!
How very terrifying.
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Although I've vehemently opposed the EU since Maastricht, more and more my driving force for wanting to see us leave (or a "no deal" Brexit as they call it now) is to annoy the smug cnuts on this thread and their friends in high places.
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ministerial resignation already, and 4 cabinet ministers abstained, not a good look already for Boris
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Strutter, I hardly think you're in a position to imply that others are effete! Lol.
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Tbf, that's probably as logical a reason as any for wanting to leave.
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Suits me, I've always supported a United Ireland.
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Surprising to see f*cking weapons like Gyimah and Djanogly voting alongside the same ones. No surprise not to see Hammond there, the worm, after all his posturing in the media.
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*Sane ones
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3dux in Gtown
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Why? Gyimah openly supported a second referendum in his leadership bid, so no surprise really. He's a massive Europhile.
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heh @ Fosco
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Sam Gyimah has been consistently anti no deal. I wouldn't say his vote is surprising.
He can be a bit batshit about other issues but is quite sane on Brexit.
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Lol @ Brexit being cancelled. Dream on.
Strap in - we are hurtling toward that cliff. And I for one can't bloody wait.
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(or what Dux said)
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Looks like parliament doesn't want to hurtle off that cliff, LA.
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I would enjoy being a copper in full riot pilling into some brexiteer gammons.
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Until there is a General Election or 2nd Referendum, nothing changes. No Brexit.
As Theresa says 'nothing has changed, nothing has changed.'
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Boris lives in terror of getting what he says he wants, and having to temporarily own it
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Err dux, i’m not quite sure that ‘effete’ means what you think it means.
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Brexit was about one thing and one thing only. Getting rid of the darkies.
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And stopping Johnny Foreigner from telling us we couldn't do so.
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How so ????
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I, for one, am outrage.
It is an outright assault on democracy to block a government from suspending democracy so they can get what they want.
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It really doesn't.
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There can be a general election without Boris needing to call one, and there probably will be at this rate.
The EU will offer a further extension in those circumstances.
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I'm not sure that that's right, ???, as prorogation and dissolution of parliament are not the same thing.
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But yeah, the only way he could call an election would be with Corbyn's support.
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"And the riots and civil disorder which will inevitably follow."
Nobody gives a toss about spoiled twots who didn't work hard enough at school agitating because their undeliverable unicorn hasn't been delivered.
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There is highly likely to be a vote of no confidence in the government.
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Interesting from the ever-fantastic Ian Dunt:
It's an important moment for several reasons. Firstly and most importantly, it blocks off the attempt to cancel parliament. Secondly, it shows the institution is ready to stand up for itself in the battles to come with the executive. And there is a third part, which hasn't been properly recognised yet but could prove crucial to the entire Brexit process. The amendment provides usable vehicles for MPs to prevent no-deal.
The Lords amendment, which was bolstered by the anti-prorogation amendment in the Commons, demanded that a minister put down each Northern Ireland report and then allow "a motion in neutral terms" on it.
Back in the day, those neutral motions couldn't be amended, so they were effectively meaningless. MPs need to be able to amend them so they can issue a command to the government.
There was an awful lot of toing and froing over that in the last bout of fighting over May's deal. But then MPs won. They voted to temporarily suspend the Commons rules - called standing orders - preventing amendments on neutral motions. And then they were able to take charge and force the government to do their bidding.
That set-up is now in place in the days leading up to the October 31st deadline. There are now vehicles for MPs to potentially stop no-deal.
This is theoretical. They'd still need to win a vote suspending the standing orders again, for a start. But it has been done before and can be done again. The slow chiselling away of the government advantage has begun. Johnson's ability force through no-deal is significantly diminished.
He hasn't even made it to No.10 yet and already his hasty, foolish promises are starting to fall apart around him. British constitutional democracy is fighting back.
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No Deal isnn't happening either. Parliamennt's gonnna veto that too.
This parliament was elected after the referendum. The referendum carries no weight against it.
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Again, I'm not sure that's right. The rules suggest that Parliament "may" be prorogued before dissolution, and that's what usually happens, but I don't think it's a requirement.
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“No Spotty, not the same but you must prorogue parliament before you dissolve it.”
I don’t think so, now we have the FTPA dissolution is an automatic process.
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If Parliament votes to say it ain't being prorogued, then it ain't being prorogued, because what Parliament says goes.
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Also, urgent confirmation needed whether "prorogue" is actually a word tx
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Except, Laz, that, aside from anything else, the majority of Parliament campaigned the 2017 election on manifestos promising to uphold the referendum result.
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I trust that any civil disorder would be dealt with in the traditional way.. Best of British and all that. Peterloo, Bloody Sunday etc.
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and the majority's parties were not successful in said campaigns
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I'm not sure what working hard at school has to do with it, but I certainly didn't. There were much better things to be doing than swotting in the library, thanks.
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One thing for which there is certainly no precedent in constitutional law is a LOL as big as the one there's gonna be when Johnson gets no-confed in his first week in the job he's wanted his whole life.
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No party that campaigned to uphold the referendum secured a majority.
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That made no sense (and not just because of the grammatical errors). The clear and overwhelming majority of Parliament was elected on manifestos promising to uphold the referendum.
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*looks up word in dictionary*
Uh-huh. It's just as I thought. Thanks for checking though.
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@Threeepwood, btw
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“He hasn't even made it to No.10 yet and already his hasty, foolish promises are starting to fall apart around him.”
I’m still in the camp that thinks Boris would love to be blocked from a no-deal Brexit.
A chance to go out for the next GE and campaign to “drain the swamp” and get rid of all the “traitors”.
Short of actually delivering Brexit, goading Parliament into actually blocking it has to be his bet chance for a GE victory (without all the nasty consequences).
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Parliament isn't going to "block" Brexit is it, it's going to call another vote on it. The most sensible would be an STV referendum between no deal, the May Withdrawal Agreement and remaining in the EU. That may be too sensible and orderly for this Parliament, however, so it might be a GE. V difficult what the outcome of either such vote would be.
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A chance to go out for the next GE and campaign to “drain the swamp” and get rid of all the “traitors”.
--
He is positively salivating at the chance.
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a perfectly normal human being, why should May's deal be on the ballot? That can't get through Parliament, she's tried and failed several times, once with the biggest government defeat in history.
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Lol @ May's deal. Is that still a thing? Really??
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Because Parliament isn't making the decision in this scenario, the people are. It's one of the three options that could be delivered immediately upon the result being announced, so it's on the slate. It would be STV so there would be no splitting of the Leave vote, save to the extent it wants to be split (and it does - there are loads of Leavers who'd rather Remain than suffer the chaos of no deal).
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2nd ref question is obvious: Customs Union or "No Deal" Brexit?
We've already voted to leave the EU so no point asking that one again.
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If you lose a general election, like Labour did, your party's manifesto has no meaning
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Then let's hope all the Conservative MPs who voted against the withdrawal agreement lose their seats for failing to uphold the referendum result.
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Unless your dictionary has the words ‘6 foot 1, 14 stone, life long participant in contact sports, beer drinking bloke’ next to the word ‘effete’ I would suggest you may be wrong.
Yet again.
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We've already voted to leave the EU so no point asking that one again.
and to think you didn't work hard in school!
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Stop waving your willy please, it's most unseemly.
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OK, so explain how this works.
Parliament blocks no deal. A general election is called. Boris wins a thumping majority. (Lol, yeah, right, but let's just pretend he does.) Boris then has to put his money where his mouth is and take us out with no deal, which he can now do because he's got the numbers.
No?
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Suspect his face would be similar to how it was after "winning" the 2016 opinion poll
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But that was three years ago, when leaving the EU was sold to the people as a magical unicorn deal which would make us better off out than in.
Now it's clear that none of the possible versions of Brexit are better than the deal we already have, the people should be allowed to choose to keep the deal we already have. Denying them that choice would be profoundly undemocratic.
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By ‘willy waving’ I assume you mean ‘showing you up for a raging halfwit’.
Yet again.
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No. That was quite clearly not what I meant.
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Then stop talking bollocks. Pretty simple really.
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So how long do you reckon befre Boris calls a a GC, or has a vote of no confidence against him?
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It would be great if a VNC is called next week, just before recess.
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6 foot 1 = SMS = effete
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6 foot 1 = SMS = effete
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SMS?
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Small man syndrome
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Yeah, right you are
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The Ingerland gammon mob, who make up the Brexit Sturmabteilung, are a major security threat. Upper-class clowns like BJ and their lower-middle class running dogs such as the ex-Obersturmfuhrer Francois will be calling for the SA (directly or indirectly) to commit violence.
After leaving on 31 Oct, let's see if there will be a massive hike in inflation and a collapse in the currency.
All of this happened in another European country not so long ago.
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y do some brexters think no deal will annoy us proud remoaners? as we have been told repeatedly, it’s the default. to the extent any remoaners would be annoyed by no deal (which they of course would be) that’s already happened. ship’s sailed
at the mo all the high places are occupied by brexters
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Hmm. I thought you were as tall as me strutts and I’m definitely 6’2”.
Hasn’t corbs already said he plans a VNC immediately? I thought he did, but it may have been more speculative than I remember.
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Lol Jeremy hunt forgot to vote
https://twitter.com/jeremy_hunt/status/1151853221461286914?s=21
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Teclis is clearly desperate to give you one strutter
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He’s only human
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It’s his bum. Like a perfect peach.
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"Parliament blocks no deal. A general election is called. Boris wins a thumping majority. (Lol, yeah, right, but let's just pretend he does.) Boris then has to put his money where his mouth is and take us out with no deal, which he can now do because he's got the numbers.
No?"
Yes. But if he does no deal now he has a minority government, time against him etc. and a risk that we're already seeing the impacts of no deal when the GE vote happens.
If he can call a GE first having somehow managed to spin getting the Brexiters back on board:
1. There is at least a vague chance he might get a negotiated deal (assuming he doesn't have to stand on a no deal basis). One thing today's decision does is give the EU 100% confidence that they don't have to back down from their current position to avoid a no deal brexit as Parliament will do that for them. I'm certainly not saying they would ever ditch the backstop - but they are definitely never going to do it whilst no deal isn't a genuine threat (delaying the pain of a hard border is the only logical reason for them to delay albeit I'm well aware there are a bunch of political concerns that mean they'd probably rather take the pain now).
2. He has (in our imaginary world where he gets a decent majority) a stable majority from which to govern through no deal with a few years of his term left for people to forget about the immediate aftermath (on the basis that a lot of the pain is going to be immediate so things will probably be improving, albeit worse than they would otherwise be, by the time the next election comes round).
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Yes but Boris getting a better deal from the EU is not something which is actually going to happen.
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No, it's not. But whether we leave with no deal is not going to be determined by whether Parliament is prorogued or not. All the EU has to do is refuse us an extension, then boom! The whole country goes to shit, and I make a shitload of money sweeping up the mess and turning off the lights.
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No, but if there is a vote of no confidence and a consequent general election the EU will clearly be willing to put the brakes on until we have figured out who the fook is running the country.
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Don't bank on it.
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Assumption is the mother of all fook-ups.
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I think they would. Every time we ask for another extension we look weaker. The best PR for the EU is for us to say "actually we'd like to stay".
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Ray - I'm not disputing that and agree that it is hardly unknown for political parties not to follow through on manifesto promises. I was responding to the very specific point that Laz made about the referendum result carrying "no weight" with Parliament.
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laz is of course correct that the referendum result carries no weight with parliament
parliament is sovereign
the only weight the referendum carries, if any, is moral. and that weight is rapidly disappearing if it has not already
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No weight. The only weight. FFS
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no weight with parliament
only weight [with anyone else]
FFS
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Moral considerations somehow apply less to parliament than they do to [anyone else], then, do they?
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