But is the situation not such that there is opportunity for a (new) party to put together a more tolerable manifesto for all concerned? A party that covers the middle ground. I cannot think why this hasn't happened yet.
maybe Labour and Conservative are now so polarised that there is space for a new pragmatic centrist party. doesn’t really work with first past post system though.
The Tories are now the party of the respectable working classes.
Labour are fully of sneery woke metro types who are more interested in virtue signalling for the latest woke cause than actually understanding the people they are trying to get to vote for them.
unless they pick another corbyn type leader, labour will win the GE after next on 'time for a change'
as Jonatton says, media folks love to talk about realignments bla bla bla end of parties bla bla bla. but labour will undoubtedly come again. people will get fed up with the Conservatives and happily the minor parties are kept out under fptp.
labour are not finished just as Conservatives were not finished in 1997 or 2001
wilfred I think you mistake a small forum of mostly liberal lawyers for the real world. BrexitBrexit just takes the piss literally. Not sure he/she is a political thing.
Yes, of course we will. Labour just needs to decide what it is first. And not have a colourless, not very good at politics, lawyer in charge. A new model Tony Blair?
Do you think the Northern WC will go back to Labour? Seems the old intertia of voting Labour has gone. I suppose it depends what the Tories give them. The problem I see for the Tories is they could start losing support in the South in time. Not for a while, but London has effectively left them now. The big cities are Tory free zones.
Was just thinking what Pinkus said. I despise Boris and his crowd, brexit still makes me livid.
I am sad to say I am glad not to live in the UK anymore and am sick to death of having to explain it and make excuses for the UK to my friends here in Europe.
Was just thinking what Pinkus said. I despise Boris and his crowd, brexit still makes me livid.
I am sad to say I am glad not to live in the UK anymore and am sick to death of having to explain it and make excuses for the UK to my friends here in Europe.
Maybe not the 'working class' as such T Pot but there are classes even if one describes them by a different name. The UK is still very much defined by class still. As someone who came from a 'working class' background I see it everyday. I still have certain attitudes even though now I would be described based on income as very middle class. Also based on how I speak I still get the odd perceived put down, real or imagined by me.
Personally, I think Labour’s perennial problem is that a lot of people don’t actually want a fairer society, they want a society that’s unfair on other people, not them.
Politics is a pretty crappy career. Crap salary, in the public eye, journos everywhere trying to out you for claiming a bottle of plonk on the Thursday train home. About half the Tory front bench has some talent. The rest of parliament is devoid of talent, including Starmer. Labour need to do their dredging for candidates elsewhere or nothing will change
I do find it amusing how money obsessed lawyers are always banging on about politicians salaries. They find it so hard to conceive that many people are not money motivated.
Normally at this point in the electoral cycle, people would be annoyed with and sick of the incumbent government. But really, at the moment, the only thing people in Britain are annoyed about is covid, and they don't really blame the government for that. The government could be blamed for the initial response and the fact that deaths were perhaps higher than they needed to be, but (1) the dead don't vote and (2) most people have got behind the government's subsequent vaccination campaign. It's somewhat analogous to a wartime situation.
In that context it's difficult for Labour to score middle-ground voter points points off the Tories on covid, and there isn't much else voters care about right now. Labour generally looking a bit like twots doesn't help but in other circumstances I think they'd be making progress regardless.
It will be interesting to see what happens when covid is no longer a political issue, and we're less than a year from that point, I think.
We are 11 years into a long period of dominant party rule. Like 1847 to 1874 or 1918 to 1945. We have not had 11 years of government by the same Tory party, we have had 4 very different Tory governments.
Saying it is "time for a change" won't work for another 3 general elections at least, and Bozza will be gone after his 2nd win. The Tory party is packed with thirsty young talent just itching for Ministerial office. By 1997 everyone was knackered.
"Red Wall" people who voted Tory in 2019 GE are probably going to be reluctant to admit their mistake- certainly not in just over a year.
The sad fact is that Labour's only, current, path to victory is to appeal to more stupid, racist people whilst not losing its metropolitan base. Difficult.
Maybe create a new scapegoat that retards can latch onto other than immigrants and the woke.
Labour moved to ‘professionalize’ their ranks away from the ‘working man’ but all they seem to have achieved is to replace them with student politicos/the workers of the woke, neither of whom have appeal either
The problem is encapsulated by BS2020 who persists in claiming that the reason the Tories are winning is because Brits are racist. Weird how racist attitudes in the UK continue to decline yet the same old shite is being trotted out.
Decline in racism and xenophobia in leave voting areas? Really Wilf?
Tories are winning because they cynically and effectively play to the baser instincts of ppl with shit lives who want someone/something to blame it on. These people aren't even bright enough to blame the party in power for 11 years.
This coupled with vested interests in media and their traditional blue rinse base (also racist and xenophobic).
I ALSO HATE OUR RACIST VOTERS WHO STAND IN THE WAY OF A FREE, PROGRESSIVE, AND DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT. HALF OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED PROBABLY DIDN’T EVEN KNEEL LAST SUMMER. IMAGINE!
WHY ARE RACISTS ALLOWED TO VOTE ANYWAY? WE SHOULD SO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.
Grou as a statement of fact the below is true. Just wondering why you posted it apart from the 'I won' and projecting yourself onto the Tory Party again. There has been quite an interesting discussion on here about what is happening in politics at the moment, care to join in?
BS2020 yes I do think that Britain is less racist now than it was in 2000, 1980, 1960 etc. Just as it's also more tolerant of different sexualities and more in favour of gender equality. The polls on whether people would object to their children marrying another ethnicity, would vote for an ethnic minority candidate etc all show significant movement in the last 10, 20 years etc.
Why is what I am doing sneering and what you say about people you consider too “woke” not? I am not sneering I am opposing. I find the values of Brexit utterly abhorrent.
FFS stop it Guy. This obsessive, lazy desperation to label the white working class as racist homophobes is embarrassing. Every social poll suggests Britain is becoming less racist and homophobic across the board.
There is a difference between liking the rough status quo, liking your country, liking local traditions etc etc and being a fooking racist reactionary. The working class in many countries, the UK included, are very often conservative with a small c.
I am not talking about the working class I am talking about Brexit supporters and the current iteration of the Tory party i don’t care what class they are in
Any view has to have a majority in a particular class so what? That doesn’t meant that in criticising that view you are targeting a particular class. 52% of the population did not vote for Brexit btw
Surely the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result. Which is precisely what labour and it supporters have been doing since Gordon brown inadvertently told us what they think of their core vote.
Not JUST the last Labour Govt there have been many,with the Tories ALWAYS having to bail them out, it became tedious and the majority of the country dont want more of the same.
LEST WE FORGET, LABOUR CAUSED THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS
OH YES THEY DID
THANK GOD THAT THE TORIES RODE IN AND SAVED THE DAY BY DELIVERING A RIP-ROARING RECOVERY WITH AUSTERITY WHICH EVERYONE AGREES IN HINDSIGHT WAS ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT THING TO DO
Every time a Labour politician highlights something like BLM and/or transphobia, someone in Hartlepool goes hmmm I'm not black or trans, why are they focusing on this and not on me or people in my community like me? The Tories exploit this relentlessy. Like shooting ducks in a barrel.
It's not racism or homophobia, it's just politics. Labour need to focus on how to build and maintain communities. Do you think Boris understands communities? He went to Eton and then Oxford and the journalism. He has no clue - he only knows how to exploit Labours fvck ups. Once Labour stop fvcking up, he is toast and his successor (if from a similar background) will be toast.
Yes austerity was necessary because there is no such thing as a magic money tree and borrowing money to prime a depressed economy would be a disaster. Oh hang on...
If Joe Biden can build an electoral coalition from ultra-liberals in Palo Alto, to parts of the Deep South to the Rust Belt, it isn't impossible that the Labour party can do it, in a country that is far more united.
Step 1 of Biden building his coalition wasn't attempting to expel the majority of the core party membership and telling a third of his voters to fook off.
Agree with Sumo. Despite my hugely negative view of the current Labour Party I wouldn't for a second think that this is the end - it never is.
If Labour brought in a charismatic leader who could bring some populism into a left wing approach they could carry an election. It's not so long ago that IDS's Tories looked like they'd be out of government for years.
The Biden comparison is harder though. He was up against Trump who never even convinced many Republican supporters. And the US is about 50% minority voters (though including many Hispanics who can't be deemed resolutely Dem) vs. 14% in the UK.
Guy - comparing Johnson to Trump is silly as you know full well. Johnson is ridiculous but he's not a complete moron, he's not pumping out divisive tweets every 5 minutes and he's not wildly unpopular. Biden was up against the least popular US President for two generations.
The problem is that the Liberal Left are to some extent correct - by ‘metropolitan’ standards a lot of people are racist etc. But generally in a pretty mild way - a subtle subconscious prejudice that doesn’t really recognise itself as being racism (etc), because, like most people, these people are ordinary pleasant human beings who are nice to those around them, or try to be, and treat people as they find them. They will have many friends colleagues and acquaintances who are from different races, sexualities etc. They don’t see themselves as some wicked evil “Racist”.
This is part of the structural and institutional racism that the Left complains of - although in practice the vast majority of these “little r” racists would probably never deliberately discriminate and may well be aware of their own biases etc and try to work against them.
It is no great surprise that such people are completely turned off by the Liberal Left obsession with identity politics. Firstly, their lives are hard enough - and they want to hear politicians talking about looking after them, not specific needy groups that they are not a part of (even though that need may be genuine). Secondly, a great deal of the Liberal Left ID politics narrative is perceived as (and to be frank IS) a direct attack on them and their attitudes personally. They see people expressing views that may have run through their own heads (or simply making linguistic slip ups that they barely understand the significance of) and being attacked/cancelled for it - and they rightly feel personally under attack.
They can see who is on their side and who is attacking them and it’s no surprise they vote accordingly.
Just look at this or any other Rof thread - a bunch of probably quite well off city dwelling lawyers slagging off “xenophobes” “racists” etc. In some mild way they may be. So what? There’s a big difference between that and acting on it. These sort of people are probably a majority and they will be for a while yet and that is why Labour will be out of power. There’s not much Labour can do to change this as it’s supporters world view is unchangeable and it’s their supporters (or people like them) that voters here and it turns them off anything to the Left if the Tories.
Nobody is going to vote for someone who seems to thinks they are evil and clearly has no intention of putting their desires/problems at the top of the agenda.
"It is no great surprise that such people are completely turned off by the Liberal Left obsession with identity politics".
Err, the right is far more obsessed with identity politics than the left. Brexit was all about identity politics. All that citizens of somewhere v citizens of nowhere stuff etc.
Guy - I agree the Right are just as bad. To a very large extent however they feed off each other. Excessive ID politics was a large part of the reason for Brexit in the first place. Metropolitans and elites repeatedly refused to listen to people who wanted to restrict immigration and have spent decades talking about special interest groups rather than the obvious problems with deprived and declining areas of the UK (which negatively affected all groups in those places; not just particular races).
Most prejudice in the UK had been reduced to dramatically under New Labour (from an already very low level in comparative terms). If you compared us internationally , it was about as low as it could be (and probably still is tbh). It may currently be getting worse because the Left refuses to move on to bigger issues affecting everyone, and people are reacting to that. Not saying the basic messaging should be abandoned. But it needs to be toned down as its taking a disproportionate part of our national debate and turning many voters towards the Tories. Unfortunately for Labour it is being led by special interest groups and the media but is culturally associates with Labour and the Left - so Im not sure that theres much it can do tbh.
Labour seem to put their fingers in their ears, listen to know one and tell working people they are stupid or wrong. If this means 2005 was Labour's last ever election victory that's good.
Yes. I voted for Mr Rose for London mayor this time as he was second favourite for a time. I have problems with the current Tory party as it is middle ground, high spend, big tax which is why it won in 2019. I would prefer a Tory party which is for a much smaller state and lower taxes and more freedom. At the moment the only party with any chance of inching towards that is the Tory party but I am not holding my breath.
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But is the situation not such that there is opportunity for a (new) party to put together a more tolerable manifesto for all concerned? A party that covers the middle ground. I cannot think why this hasn't happened yet.
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I remember people saying similar things about the tories less than 15 years ago
’events’ and all that...
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SDP, Lib Dems, Change
past performance no indicator of future
maybe Labour and Conservative are now so polarised that there is space for a new pragmatic centrist party. doesn’t really work with first past post system though.
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The Tories are now the party of the respectable working classes.
Labour are fully of sneery woke metro types who are more interested in virtue signalling for the latest woke cause than actually understanding the people they are trying to get to vote for them.
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2028 will be Labour.
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unless they pick another corbyn type leader, labour will win the GE after next on 'time for a change'
as Jonatton says, media folks love to talk about realignments bla bla bla end of parties bla bla bla. but labour will undoubtedly come again. people will get fed up with the Conservatives and happily the minor parties are kept out under fptp.
labour are not finished just as Conservatives were not finished in 1997 or 2001
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THANK GOD FOR FIRST PAST THE POST: I SHUDDER TO THINK WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IF A PROPORTIONATE MAJORITY OF BRITISH VOTERS GOT TO HAVE THEIR WAY...
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I agree with EP. Whether or not that is the actual case, at the moment northern voters certainly feel that way about labour.
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BREXITBREXIT is the embodiment of why Labour are fooked. Sneery, preachy and annoying.
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I'm a traditional Labour voter and have no idea what Labour stand for or who they represent any more.
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JY is right. Events dear boy events.
I can remember 1992 then it was will Labour ever win another election. As JY same said of the Tories under Blair. The wheel turns.
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wilfred I think you mistake a small forum of mostly liberal lawyers for the real world. BrexitBrexit just takes the piss literally. Not sure he/she is a political thing.
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What pinkus said
This doesn't lead me to vote Tory. It just means I don't vote
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almost certainly yes
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what pinkus said. Although I'd go one further and state that they probably despise me.
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Yes we will as JY and Mr C says
Boris is inexplicably popular but he won’t be around for ever.
the northern vote will go back to Labour eventually
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Yes, of course we will. Labour just needs to decide what it is first. And not have a colourless, not very good at politics, lawyer in charge. A new model Tony Blair?
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Do you think the Northern WC will go back to Labour? Seems the old intertia of voting Labour has gone. I suppose it depends what the Tories give them. The problem I see for the Tories is they could start losing support in the South in time. Not for a while, but London has effectively left them now. The big cities are Tory free zones.
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Was just thinking what Pinkus said. I despise Boris and his crowd, brexit still makes me livid.
I am sad to say I am glad not to live in the UK anymore and am sick to death of having to explain it and make excuses for the UK to my friends here in Europe.
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Was just thinking what Pinkus said. I despise Boris and his crowd, brexit still makes me livid.
I am sad to say I am glad not to live in the UK anymore and am sick to death of having to explain it and make excuses for the UK to my friends here in Europe.
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"Do you think the Northern WC will go back to Labour? "
Yes
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The whole WC concept is out dated. I think it may be time to say the same about the Labour Party.
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nandy will probably become leader after starmer and she’ll pull it back
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Nandy will never get the sane Labour vote though, the thick brexiteer w@nker
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Maybe not the 'working class' as such T Pot but there are classes even if one describes them by a different name. The UK is still very much defined by class still. As someone who came from a 'working class' background I see it everyday. I still have certain attitudes even though now I would be described based on income as very middle class. Also based on how I speak I still get the odd perceived put down, real or imagined by me.
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BREXITBREXIT is the embodiment of why Labour are fooked. Sneery, preachy and annoying.
No, Labour are fooked because we live on a khunty little island full of khunts
@PaulbernalUK ·2h
Personally, I think Labour’s perennial problem is that a lot of people don’t actually want a fairer society, they want a society that’s unfair on other people, not them.
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The best hope is a Labour Liberal electoral pact followed by the introduction of PR. The majority of the country still vote left/liberal.
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@PaulbernalUK you have a point to a degree.
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Politics is a pretty crappy career. Crap salary, in the public eye, journos everywhere trying to out you for claiming a bottle of plonk on the Thursday train home. About half the Tory front bench has some talent. The rest of parliament is devoid of talent, including Starmer. Labour need to do their dredging for candidates elsewhere or nothing will change
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I do find it amusing how money obsessed lawyers are always banging on about politicians salaries. They find it so hard to conceive that many people are not money motivated.
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Normally at this point in the electoral cycle, people would be annoyed with and sick of the incumbent government. But really, at the moment, the only thing people in Britain are annoyed about is covid, and they don't really blame the government for that. The government could be blamed for the initial response and the fact that deaths were perhaps higher than they needed to be, but (1) the dead don't vote and (2) most people have got behind the government's subsequent vaccination campaign. It's somewhat analogous to a wartime situation.
In that context it's difficult for Labour to score middle-ground voter points points off the Tories on covid, and there isn't much else voters care about right now. Labour generally looking a bit like twots doesn't help but in other circumstances I think they'd be making progress regardless.
It will be interesting to see what happens when covid is no longer a political issue, and we're less than a year from that point, I think.
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We are 11 years into a long period of dominant party rule. Like 1847 to 1874 or 1918 to 1945. We have not had 11 years of government by the same Tory party, we have had 4 very different Tory governments.
Saying it is "time for a change" won't work for another 3 general elections at least, and Bozza will be gone after his 2nd win. The Tory party is packed with thirsty young talent just itching for Ministerial office. By 1997 everyone was knackered.
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"Red Wall" people who voted Tory in 2019 GE are probably going to be reluctant to admit their mistake- certainly not in just over a year.
The sad fact is that Labour's only, current, path to victory is to appeal to more stupid, racist people whilst not losing its metropolitan base. Difficult.
Maybe create a new scapegoat that retards can latch onto other than immigrants and the woke.
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Labour moved to ‘professionalize’ their ranks away from the ‘working man’ but all they seem to have achieved is to replace them with student politicos/the workers of the woke, neither of whom have appeal either
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The problem is encapsulated by BS2020 who persists in claiming that the reason the Tories are winning is because Brits are racist. Weird how racist attitudes in the UK continue to decline yet the same old shite is being trotted out.
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"The Tory party is packed with thirsty young talent"
ABSOLUTELY MASSIVE 100 CARAT LOL
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How do you know whether they’re thirsty or not laz?
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Decline in racism and xenophobia in leave voting areas? Really Wilf?
Tories are winning because they cynically and effectively play to the baser instincts of ppl with shit lives who want someone/something to blame it on. These people aren't even bright enough to blame the party in power for 11 years.
This coupled with vested interests in media and their traditional blue rinse base (also racist and xenophobic).
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I ALSO HATE OUR RACIST VOTERS WHO STAND IN THE WAY OF A FREE, PROGRESSIVE, AND DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT. HALF OF THE PEOPLE WHO VOTED PROBABLY DIDN’T EVEN KNEEL LAST SUMMER. IMAGINE!
WHY ARE RACISTS ALLOWED TO VOTE ANYWAY? WE SHOULD SO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT.
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"Britain is shit, you people are scum"
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BremainBremain not up to the standard of the original. Tbf right wing "comedy" is a tough gig.
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Why won’t you vote for us?!
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LOL Ben Houchen, the most popular mayor in the country, is 34 years old.
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Grou as a statement of fact the below is true. Just wondering why you posted it apart from the 'I won' and projecting yourself onto the Tory Party again. There has been quite an interesting discussion on here about what is happening in politics at the moment, care to join in?
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Yes mr c here are two great takes (one picture and one from marina hyde) which sum up labour’s problem
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And don’t you think lord Mandelson’s views are relevant?
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"Yes mr c here are two great takes (one picture and one from marina hyde) which sum up labour’s problem "
Not sure I understand I was referring to posters contributions on here. Seem to be different from different people with different political outlooks.
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Mandy was just stating a fact. I might be wrong but you seem to be posting as some sort of football chant for yourself. I won I won.
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I’m addressing the thread topic mr c. Not sure why you’re doing/on about
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Yes I am trying to analyse you Grou (wrongly maybe)
I look forward to your contributions. :-)
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has anyone mentioned photo ID at polling stations yet?
Labour will never be in govt again
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BS2020 yes I do think that Britain is less racist now than it was in 2000, 1980, 1960 etc. Just as it's also more tolerant of different sexualities and more in favour of gender equality. The polls on whether people would object to their children marrying another ethnicity, would vote for an ethnic minority candidate etc all show significant movement in the last 10, 20 years etc.
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BS2020 doesn’t like racism - good - but thinks “retard” is still an acceptable term?
Care for minorities very much skin deep here methinks
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WE NEED THIS.
PARTICULARLY IN URBAN AREAS.
BECAUSE OF ALL THE VOTER FRAUD.
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Mr c, I agree with the views in these two tweets:
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What exactly are these “values”? Xenophobia racism and homophobia? What a depressing country this is becoming.
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nope
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You fit right in in sir keir’s sneery party guy
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Why is what I am doing sneering and what you say about people you consider too “woke” not? I am not sneering I am opposing. I find the values of Brexit utterly abhorrent.
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FFS stop it Guy. This obsessive, lazy desperation to label the white working class as racist homophobes is embarrassing. Every social poll suggests Britain is becoming less racist and homophobic across the board.
There is a difference between liking the rough status quo, liking your country, liking local traditions etc etc and being a fooking racist reactionary. The working class in many countries, the UK included, are very often conservative with a small c.
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Very well guy. You’ve picked your side.
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I am not talking about the working class I am talking about Brexit supporters and the current iteration of the Tory party i don’t care what class they are in
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100% wot Wilf said.
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So you're talking about 52% of the country, the majority of whom are working class? OK then.
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Any view has to have a majority in a particular class so what? That doesn’t meant that in criticising that view you are targeting a particular class. 52% of the population did not vote for Brexit btw
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Hopefully not, the country has to start building again because of the pandemic, the last thing on earth we need is ANOTHER dire Labour Gov
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If you believe the last Labour government was dire and Johnson’s government is not you are either irredeemably stupid or wilfully blind.
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Good point
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I agree it has to be introduced.
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Surely the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing again and again expecting a different result. Which is precisely what labour and it supporters have been doing since Gordon brown inadvertently told us what they think of their core vote.
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Not JUST the last Labour Govt there have been many,with the Tories ALWAYS having to bail them out, it became tedious and the majority of the country dont want more of the same.
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Yeah that`l appen lol
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People???? would that be you ?
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LEST WE FORGET, LABOUR CAUSED THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL CRISIS
OH YES THEY DID
THANK GOD THAT THE TORIES RODE IN AND SAVED THE DAY BY DELIVERING A RIP-ROARING RECOVERY WITH AUSTERITY WHICH EVERYONE AGREES IN HINDSIGHT WAS ABSOLUTELY THE RIGHT THING TO DO
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Every time a Labour politician highlights something like BLM and/or transphobia, someone in Hartlepool goes hmmm I'm not black or trans, why are they focusing on this and not on me or people in my community like me? The Tories exploit this relentlessy. Like shooting ducks in a barrel.
It's not racism or homophobia, it's just politics. Labour need to focus on how to build and maintain communities. Do you think Boris understands communities? He went to Eton and then Oxford and the journalism. He has no clue - he only knows how to exploit Labours fvck ups. Once Labour stop fvcking up, he is toast and his successor (if from a similar background) will be toast.
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aka stop being woke
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Yes austerity was necessary because there is no such thing as a magic money tree and borrowing money to prime a depressed economy would be a disaster. Oh hang on...
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REMEMBER THE BOND VIGILANTES?!?
THEY WERE SO FRIGHTENING I PEED MY PANTS BUT THANKFULLY AUSTERITY KEPT IS SAFE!!
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Scouse.
Yes, I think "retard" is an acceptable term to use on an anonymous forum. Pejorative but acceptable.
Also I didn't express any particular concerns for minorities. I just stated that most leave voters are probably racist, or perhaps more accurately:
"Not all leave voters are racist but all racists are leave voters".
Hope that answers your questions?
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If Joe Biden can build an electoral coalition from ultra-liberals in Palo Alto, to parts of the Deep South to the Rust Belt, it isn't impossible that the Labour party can do it, in a country that is far more united.
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Step 1 of Biden building his coalition wasn't attempting to expel the majority of the core party membership and telling a third of his voters to fook off.
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Agree with Sumo. Despite my hugely negative view of the current Labour Party I wouldn't for a second think that this is the end - it never is.
If Labour brought in a charismatic leader who could bring some populism into a left wing approach they could carry an election. It's not so long ago that IDS's Tories looked like they'd be out of government for years.
The Biden comparison is harder though. He was up against Trump who never even convinced many Republican supporters. And the US is about 50% minority voters (though including many Hispanics who can't be deemed resolutely Dem) vs. 14% in the UK.
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BS2020 what a fcukwit
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APPAZ Labour have done well in wales - esp relative to cons - so narrative might shift to 'green shoots for labour in wales and london' ! :)
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He was up against Trump who never even convinced many Republican supporters
I am pretty sure many Tory supporters, particularly those with a few brain cells to rub together, are not convinced by Johnson.
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I AM VERY AND SINCERELY OFFENDED BY THE USE OF THE WORD “RETARD”
IT SOUNDS LIKE THE KIND OF THING A WOKETARD OR A LIBTARD MIGHT SAY
OR A PICANINNY
#PRINCIPLEDSTANCE
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Guy - comparing Johnson to Trump is silly as you know full well. Johnson is ridiculous but he's not a complete moron, he's not pumping out divisive tweets every 5 minutes and he's not wildly unpopular. Biden was up against the least popular US President for two generations.
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The problem is that the Liberal Left are to some extent correct - by ‘metropolitan’ standards a lot of people are racist etc. But generally in a pretty mild way - a subtle subconscious prejudice that doesn’t really recognise itself as being racism (etc), because, like most people, these people are ordinary pleasant human beings who are nice to those around them, or try to be, and treat people as they find them. They will have many friends colleagues and acquaintances who are from different races, sexualities etc. They don’t see themselves as some wicked evil “Racist”.
This is part of the structural and institutional racism that the Left complains of - although in practice the vast majority of these “little r” racists would probably never deliberately discriminate and may well be aware of their own biases etc and try to work against them.
It is no great surprise that such people are completely turned off by the Liberal Left obsession with identity politics. Firstly, their lives are hard enough - and they want to hear politicians talking about looking after them, not specific needy groups that they are not a part of (even though that need may be genuine). Secondly, a great deal of the Liberal Left ID politics narrative is perceived as (and to be frank IS) a direct attack on them and their attitudes personally. They see people expressing views that may have run through their own heads (or simply making linguistic slip ups that they barely understand the significance of) and being attacked/cancelled for it - and they rightly feel personally under attack.
They can see who is on their side and who is attacking them and it’s no surprise they vote accordingly.
Just look at this or any other Rof thread - a bunch of probably quite well off city dwelling lawyers slagging off “xenophobes” “racists” etc. In some mild way they may be. So what? There’s a big difference between that and acting on it. These sort of people are probably a majority and they will be for a while yet and that is why Labour will be out of power. There’s not much Labour can do to change this as it’s supporters world view is unchangeable and it’s their supporters (or people like them) that voters here and it turns them off anything to the Left if the Tories.
Nobody is going to vote for someone who seems to thinks they are evil and clearly has no intention of putting their desires/problems at the top of the agenda.
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"It is no great surprise that such people are completely turned off by the Liberal Left obsession with identity politics".
Err, the right is far more obsessed with identity politics than the left. Brexit was all about identity politics. All that citizens of somewhere v citizens of nowhere stuff etc.
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Guy - I agree the Right are just as bad. To a very large extent however they feed off each other. Excessive ID politics was a large part of the reason for Brexit in the first place. Metropolitans and elites repeatedly refused to listen to people who wanted to restrict immigration and have spent decades talking about special interest groups rather than the obvious problems with deprived and declining areas of the UK (which negatively affected all groups in those places; not just particular races).
Most prejudice in the UK had been reduced to dramatically under New Labour (from an already very low level in comparative terms). If you compared us internationally , it was about as low as it could be (and probably still is tbh). It may currently be getting worse because the Left refuses to move on to bigger issues affecting everyone, and people are reacting to that. Not saying the basic messaging should be abandoned. But it needs to be toned down as its taking a disproportionate part of our national debate and turning many voters towards the Tories. Unfortunately for Labour it is being led by special interest groups and the media but is culturally associates with Labour and the Left - so Im not sure that theres much it can do tbh.
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Labour seem to put their fingers in their ears, listen to know one and tell working people they are stupid or wrong. If this means 2005 was Labour's last ever election victory that's good.
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Out of interest Lydia would you ever consider an alternative to the Tories? Or just want them in power for ever.
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I.E. THE IMMIGRANTS! GET RID OF THEM AND YOU MAKE IT ALL BETTER!!
IT’S GOOD TO KNOW WHO’S TO BLAME FOR ALL THE PROBLEMS
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Yes. I voted for Mr Rose for London mayor this time as he was second favourite for a time. I have problems with the current Tory party as it is middle ground, high spend, big tax which is why it won in 2019. I would prefer a Tory party which is for a much smaller state and lower taxes and more freedom. At the moment the only party with any chance of inching towards that is the Tory party but I am not holding my breath.
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What CW said. V good summary.
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Grouville- I will be sure to use the boomer approved term "fookwit" from now on, rather than "retard". Apologies for offence caused.
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