Bumped as a serious q. Why would anyone bother slaving in a UK firm after xPQE - i.e.c.130k at 5PQE as silver; 165k at magic, just so you can make 180k-230k (if that is the case which i would love confirmed)...and then work for years and years to try to make it to the bottom of the equity, and not just go in-house at 5PQE on 140-150k at a somewhat acceptable enterprise, and try to make GC on a little bit more.
Biggie , you do know when you go in house there is only 1 GC role. Chances are between slim and zero. Slaving away as you put it in PP, there will be numerous vacancies foe SP and EP's. You should know this , you have repeatedly said your an EP on 100k net PCM, remember
A v rare what ebitda said. Love how people think you just go inhouse, make GC and get on the board. Inhouse is generally not for people who want to get rich or swing dicks though of course there are outliers but they are just that. You do it if you want to earn reasonable money with predictable hours so that you can actually do it until 60, which you will need to do while being treated like a human being.
Love how people think you just go inhouse, make GC and get on the board
That reminds me of a "Managing Associate" I knew who said he planned to go straight from senior associate to GC at a bank, somehow under the illusion that MC senior associates aren't a dime a dozen.
You can get the P title at a fourth tier firm above a fried chicken shop.
You can get it by going to some awful "dynamic mid tier" that basically franchises the letterhead to a bunch of khuntish sole practitioners who fight like cats in a duffle bag (I'm looking at you HWLE).
If you want it anywhere actually worthwhile, you've got to be good, very lucky and vey willing to suck cock. And really, really lucky.
How long is a piece of string? There are lots of different types of counsel roles. Are you specifically talking about "partner waiting room" type counsel?
Some US firms use counsel as the salaried partner designation.
I do not know how SC/MC firms work. Whatever comes after managing associate. Whatever the fake partner salary is until the bottom of equity which is probably often about 500-600k. Just hit me with data.
At some US firms, counsel is synonymous with salaried partner.
Thanks Threeepwood. Helpful. However I understood the range differently: i.e. last year counsel being 140-180k odd at silver, and salaried partner being 160-200k+. Your numbers are significantly higher.
Yes, I have those numbers. So basically everyone is saying that being 20PQE as counsel or salaried partner is normal being either c.160k (low end counsel SC) or c.240-300k (MC salaried partner).
I don't think PQE matters once you hit counsel level ie a 10 pqe counsel probably earns similar to a 20 pqe counsel. If the firm sees counsel as somebody who doesn't want or isn't good for partnership it's sort of a dead end and a bit of a nightmare as you still beasted/don't have autonomy over your workload versus clients and partners and you don't get to sit in or get involved in anything meaningful in terms of management so you're basically just a senior associate with a title
Counsel is an absolute awful role to have unless you're absolutely assured that it's a gong to keep you happy for a couple of years. Most of the downside of being a partner, including partners delegating their shit management roles, and none of the upside.
A few of my m7s have been made counsel recently and have reported minimal if any pay rise.
I don't think I'm necessarily alone in finding some of these helpful contributions as shocking. From the above, it appears;
(1) some firms use the counsel title as an alternative partner track, for those who don't want or can't become partner; except there is no track. It's senior associate in all but name with no salary differential designed to protect someone's career stagnation from being made public knowledge.
(2) in some firms, counsel is just another step from senior associate before salaried partner, introducing yet another bunch of years and pushing back equity progression for longer.
(3) a SC associate will earn 100-140+ over c.8 years (which is virtually no differential) and then, using let lurk's numbers, make 160+ as counsel. An MC associate it looking at 125-175k and then 200k as counsel in the same manner.
Minimal progression given tax and the number of years experience in relation to an NQ/junior who can't do anything.
I don't know about MC salaried partner as the forms I know don't have them. At a US firm, I'm aware of one person on 220K at salaried partner. At another US form, I know counsel gets 350K.
Not sure if Reed Smith etc counts as a US firm, but understand what you mean. At Akin, it's about that for counsel.
In-house options for a 9-7 are 150-200k at some places. If you're counsel at Travers making 160k at 10PQE and some NQ is making more than you, or you could lateral for an in house role for the same money doing less hours, I don't get it. But maybe I'm missing something.
This thread seems to be Biggie asking for numbers. Then getting numbers. Then saying the numbers are wrong and posting some IH numbers which are totally made up.
Not all MC firms have salaried (meaning fixed EQT) partners. In some of them you go straight into the good stuff. In the ones that do, rule of thumb is around 60-70 (ish) % of the bottom of the ladder. So depends on what the EQT spread is for the office - e.g. London might have a higher ladder than some of the random less profitable offices. Legal Business did an article on the EQT spreads of the top UK firms a couple of years ago, so take that and go from there.
If you get the nominal self employed badge still as salaried you could in theory lose out due to no pension contribution but generally law firm pensions are pretty w**k so you’d have to be getting barely any pay bump for partnership
“You can get the P title at a fourth tier firm above a fried chicken shop.
You can get it by going to some awful "dynamic mid tier" that basically franchises the letterhead to a bunch of khuntish sole practitioners who fight like cats in a duffle bag (I'm looking at you HWLE).”
Either of these options is fine. No law firm really has a “brand” worth the name - once you got the P badge, wherever you got the P badge, you’ve got a licence to go out and build a business. And yeah, that does mean, you could just start your own shop, although it’s nice to find someone who’ll pay you a stipend while you’re out hawking.
Of course, at some large firms what happens when you make partner is you succeed to, or effectively inherit, a bit of a profitable business that someone else has built in the past. But who seriously wants that? Life’s about what you build with your own hands.
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Airfix models.
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Bloody clever clogs.
I knew I should have proofed this.
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Bumped as a serious q. Why would anyone bother slaving in a UK firm after xPQE - i.e.c.130k at 5PQE as silver; 165k at magic, just so you can make 180k-230k (if that is the case which i would love confirmed)...and then work for years and years to try to make it to the bottom of the equity, and not just go in-house at 5PQE on 140-150k at a somewhat acceptable enterprise, and try to make GC on a little bit more.
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Not everyone wants to be a partner; personally, I’m very happy as counsel (now that the firm has sort of worked out what it wants that role to be).
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Biggie are you referring to counsel or non equity partner?
Very different roles but appreciate many juniors can't see much difference day to day
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Getting equity is based on performance not time.
I think it’s more like £250 at the silver circle- and £400 at the mc. But
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Parsnip are those figures for bottom of equity? Or salary partners?
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Biggie , you do know when you go in house there is only 1 GC role. Chances are between slim and zero. Slaving away as you put it in PP, there will be numerous vacancies foe SP and EP's. You should know this , you have repeatedly said your an EP on 100k net PCM, remember
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A v rare what ebitda said. Love how people think you just go inhouse, make GC and get on the board. Inhouse is generally not for people who want to get rich or swing dicks though of course there are outliers but they are just that. You do it if you want to earn reasonable money with predictable hours so that you can actually do it until 60, which you will need to do while being treated like a human being.
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Entry level to partnership
whatever you want to call it - in most larger firms this isn’t ‘salary’ technically
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That reminds me of a "Managing Associate" I knew who said he planned to go straight from senior associate to GC at a bank, somehow under the illusion that MC senior associates aren't a dime a dozen.
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Biggie's recruiting for in-house roles now?
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nearly everyone who wants partnership in PP and seriously commits to it gets it, somewhere, eventually
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Heh @ Laz.
What a stupid thing to say.
You can get the P title at a fourth tier firm above a fried chicken shop.
You can get it by going to some awful "dynamic mid tier" that basically franchises the letterhead to a bunch of khuntish sole practitioners who fight like cats in a duffle bag (I'm looking at you HWLE).
If you want it anywhere actually worthwhile, you've got to be good, very lucky and vey willing to suck cock. And really, really lucky.
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Simple thread on compensation for counsel and salaried partner at two types of firm. I see no numbers or confirmations.
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How long is a piece of string? There are lots of different types of counsel roles. Are you specifically talking about "partner waiting room" type counsel?
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LOL, I haven't been here in years at it's still groundhog day here. I love you guys
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Some US firms use counsel as the salaried partner designation.
I do not know how SC/MC firms work. Whatever comes after managing associate. Whatever the fake partner salary is until the bottom of equity which is probably often about 500-600k. Just hit me with data.
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As I said, there are lots of different types of Counsel, and some go from senior associate straight to partner so its not a rung.
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SC: counsel £180k-200k, first/second year partner £250k-£300k
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At some US firms, counsel is synonymous with salaried partner.
Thanks Threeepwood. Helpful. However I understood the range differently: i.e. last year counsel being 140-180k odd at silver, and salaried partner being 160-200k+. Your numbers are significantly higher.
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Counsel @ large city/SC = £160-185k
Counsel @ MC = £200k ish
Counsel at US firm = £320k + but depends on business case
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Yes, I have those numbers. So basically everyone is saying that being 20PQE as counsel or salaried partner is normal being either c.160k (low end counsel SC) or c.240-300k (MC salaried partner).
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I don't think PQE matters once you hit counsel level ie a 10 pqe counsel probably earns similar to a 20 pqe counsel. If the firm sees counsel as somebody who doesn't want or isn't good for partnership it's sort of a dead end and a bit of a nightmare as you still beasted/don't have autonomy over your workload versus clients and partners and you don't get to sit in or get involved in anything meaningful in terms of management so you're basically just a senior associate with a title
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I know counsel on £160k at MC firms. Depends on the role.
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My old shop made most do counsel for a couple of years before partner. It was a step, not a dead end
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Counsel is an absolute awful role to have unless you're absolutely assured that it's a gong to keep you happy for a couple of years. Most of the downside of being a partner, including partners delegating their shit management roles, and none of the upside.
A few of my m7s have been made counsel recently and have reported minimal if any pay rise.
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I don't think I'm necessarily alone in finding some of these helpful contributions as shocking. From the above, it appears;
(1) some firms use the counsel title as an alternative partner track, for those who don't want or can't become partner; except there is no track. It's senior associate in all but name with no salary differential designed to protect someone's career stagnation from being made public knowledge.
(2) in some firms, counsel is just another step from senior associate before salaried partner, introducing yet another bunch of years and pushing back equity progression for longer.
(3) a SC associate will earn 100-140+ over c.8 years (which is virtually no differential) and then, using let lurk's numbers, make 160+ as counsel. An MC associate it looking at 125-175k and then 200k as counsel in the same manner.
Minimal progression given tax and the number of years experience in relation to an NQ/junior who can't do anything.
Salary partner numbers haven't been forthcoming.
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I don't know about MC salaried partner as the forms I know don't have them. At a US firm, I'm aware of one person on 220K at salaried partner. At another US form, I know counsel gets 350K.
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*firm
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*firm
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Not sure if Reed Smith etc counts as a US firm, but understand what you mean. At Akin, it's about that for counsel.
In-house options for a 9-7 are 150-200k at some places. If you're counsel at Travers making 160k at 10PQE and some NQ is making more than you, or you could lateral for an in house role for the same money doing less hours, I don't get it. But maybe I'm missing something.
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Which NQ roles in-house pay 160K?
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At my, MC, shop. Counsel start at £210k. but some are on more than £300k. bonus is up to 50 percent.
I don’t really recognise the MC data on this thread
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You can also be a non-equity partner and earn £500k easily
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This thread seems to be Biggie asking for numbers. Then getting numbers. Then saying the numbers are wrong and posting some IH numbers which are totally made up.
Classic ROF.
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Not all MC firms have salaried (meaning fixed EQT) partners. In some of them you go straight into the good stuff. In the ones that do, rule of thumb is around 60-70 (ish) % of the bottom of the ladder. So depends on what the EQT spread is for the office - e.g. London might have a higher ladder than some of the random less profitable offices. Legal Business did an article on the EQT spreads of the top UK firms a couple of years ago, so take that and go from there.
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I remember a rumour years ago that salaried partners/fixed equity partners were on less than senior associates.
I didn't think it was true.
It wasn't. The base was about the same (and no pension etc) but you could make it up with points.
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Where you have capital contributions to make you could end up being worse off for a period initially?
But I think circumstances like that are relatively rare these days.
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Very rare I think m7
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If you get the nominal self employed badge still as salaried you could in theory lose out due to no pension contribution but generally law firm pensions are pretty w**k so you’d have to be getting barely any pay bump for partnership
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“You can get the P title at a fourth tier firm above a fried chicken shop.
You can get it by going to some awful "dynamic mid tier" that basically franchises the letterhead to a bunch of khuntish sole practitioners who fight like cats in a duffle bag (I'm looking at you HWLE).”
Either of these options is fine. No law firm really has a “brand” worth the name - once you got the P badge, wherever you got the P badge, you’ve got a licence to go out and build a business. And yeah, that does mean, you could just start your own shop, although it’s nice to find someone who’ll pay you a stipend while you’re out hawking.
Of course, at some large firms what happens when you make partner is you succeed to, or effectively inherit, a bit of a profitable business that someone else has built in the past. But who seriously wants that? Life’s about what you build with your own hands.
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MC numbers on here are very 2016ish.
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lollers at your average inhouser making dubtun - most will be lucky not be tunstrugglas.
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