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Richard Sanders interview on 7 October documentary

The entire interview is worth listening to but, in particular, from 8mins until 18m 30s is on the exact same point that was being discussed here over the last few days.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArZ60k9EEo

Curious to know whether people now consider Richard Sanders to be a Hamas supporter/rape apologist/apathetic/sh1tty/repugnant and/or a "grotesque spectacle of a person casually shrugging off his humanity"

 

The evidence is increasingly showing that although rapes and sexual assaults were committed by Hamas, it wasn’t as widespread or systematic in the way it was initially reported. This is problematic for a lot of people who simply view this conflict as good v evil or whatever, and simply can’t abide the thought of it being anything but. 

Thus anyone who tries to form a  more “true” picture of the conflict has infantile accusations of “rape apologist” etc thrown their way. It will be interesting to read the Human Rights Watch report when it’s released but it won’t make a difference to playftse and Amit etc because they aren’t interested in the truth.

Cue the accusations.

No one is denying Hamas didn’t commit atrocities. I think you’ve missed the point.

But ok- to speak your language, there is also plenty of evidence that the IDF has committed rapes and sexual assaults of Palestinians over the decades and continues to do so in the present day. So where does that leave us then?

Back to the basic point that nothing Hamas did on October 7 could ever justify the collective punishment and killings of tens of thousands of innocent men, women, children, babies. You’re sadistic, psychotic, insane, if you think otherwise.

 

And Hamas haven't stopped these violations yet, even this month. These are the words of the United Nations from last week.

the mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.  

The United Nations received clear and convincing information that sexual violence occurred against women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing.  

 

Why can't you condemn these disgusting animals instead of apologising for them?

The evidence is increasingly showing that although rapes and sexual assaults were committed by Hamas, it wasn’t as widespread or systematic in the way it was initially reported. This is problematic for a lot of people who simply view this conflict as good v evil or whatever, and simply can’t abide the thought of it being anything but. 

Honeybun - fully agree with this but would add that what makes it even more problematic for those who are starting to realise that they may have been lied to about the extent of the horrors is that it went a long way to justifying Israel’s response And the West’s support for it. Once you start viewing the mainstream media’s coverage and Western government responses to this with a reasonable degree of skepticism, it starts to leave you in a very disillusioned mental state.  We don’t live up to the values we impose upon others. We don’t hold our allies and close partners to those standards, and we ignore the laws and systems that were designed in the aftermath of some of the worst mass-killling of civilians in human history. And the entire time that we’re doing these things, we use the media to control the masses into silently going along with it.

 

Yes exactly Gorlami, that’s more eloquently put than I could have. It was the same dishonest tactics used after 9/11 and the whole WMD fear-mongering which led us into Iraq etc.

The conflict on the ground has been covered extensively and brought to our screens in a way no other conflict in recent times has- from both sides. It is so depressing that in the face of such coverage, proofs, evidence, reports, coverage etc- all of which is readily available- people are disinterested in examining their position, or wilfully blind, or just hell-bent in sticking to the “self-defence” narrative they’ve probably heard all their lives even when such “self defence” is effectively crushing children in their homes.

And in two decades the narrative will have long shifted and it will be generally accepted that yes there was distortion by the media and yes Israel’s response was unjustified, but it will of course be too late for many by then.

The evidence is increasingly showing that although rapes and sexual assaults were committed by Hamas, it wasn’t as widespread or systematic in the way it was initially reported. This is problematic for a lot of people who simply view this conflict as good v evil or whatever, and simply can’t abide the thought of it being anything but. 

Not sure why this is relevant.  Hamas could have done all the rapes in the world or none at all, they're still a terrorist organisation which needs to be removed, and the Israeli's are entirely justified in using force to do so.  I wish the IDF all the best in their military operations against Hamas, their victory is our victory. 

Equally, Hamas could have done all the rapes in the world or none at all, the people of Gaza are still non-combatant civilians, and collective punishment, overly aggressive military operations designed to displace and unnecessarily harm residents, and the widespread wanton destruction of civilian infrastructure with the aim of inducing a mass migration of people from Gaza so it can be annexed by Israel are still war crimes and crimes against international law.  I hope that not one of the current Right-wing leadership of Israel escape prison for their crimes, the proud state of Israel desperately needs to be saved from the poisonous evil they represent 

From a purely theoretical perspective Warren, I’d agree with aspects of that. But it ignores the reality of a more complex, multidimensional situation that we’re faced with here.  Your post fails to address any of the historical nuances (including the failure of leaders on both sides and from both the current and previous governments to find a peaceful solution) and at least two key aspects of the recent escalations:

  1. why should we all unquestioningly follow the West’s approach of labelling any organisation as terrorists? The US invaded Iraq based on what was subsequently proven to be lies not to mention running the extraterritorial rendition program (I.e. outsourced torture). Who or what gives them moral authority to label others terrorists?
  2. the role of the media cannot be overlooked. It’s naive to say that it doesn’t matter whether there were any rapes or atrocities of the worst kind described in the aftermath of 7/10. It was these stories that fuelled support for Israel’s subsequent “defence” but has now gone way, way beyond that. 

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