and as i’m sure you’re aware “fights in a bar” isn’t the most common cause of violence, it’s people you know including relatives that cause the most violence
i dunno why they’d choose to wait until their significant other or child or sibling was presenting as their true gender to attack them?
No, i'm talking about the point (I thought) you were making about the inherent unreliability of trans related stats because some trans people might have been in the closet at the time of their assault or death. What am I missing?
ah sorry cru - i don’t believe the police are able to reliably record, when presented with a victim, what their gender identity was when they are alive
this is imo true in the uk but more so in southern us states or the favelas of brazil
it’s not about “transphobic” attacks, it’s about real numbers of trans murder victims
whereas rumpole is comparing it to real numbers of female victims (which are obviously much easier to record)
(and fwiw i feel the same from an evidential perspective on trans suicide rates which are routinely used by trans-affirmative groups - i don’t trust those either)
"and as i’m sure you’re aware “fights in a bar” isn’t the most common cause of violence, it’s people you know including relatives that cause the most violence"
False. You're deliberately misleading, by taking the male-pattern violence towards females trends and applying them to males.
"In the year ending March 2022, female victims were more commonly killed by a partner or ex-partner (33%) or a family member (13%). For males the suspected killer was more commonly a friend or acquaintance (18%), stranger (15%) or other known person (9%)."
Stranger on stranger is very much a trend in male-pattern violence towards males.
it’s not about “transphobic” attacks, it’s about real numbers of trans murder victims
whereas rumpole is comparing it to real numbers of female victims (which are obviously much easier to record)
Published female murder figures are often “femicide” which is a narrower definition, where a woman is known to have been killed by one or more men. So often this femicide figure is the one that gets compared to the trans identified male one, not the true number of female homicides. I’ve seen this many times.
So often this femicide figure is the one that gets compared to the trans identified male one, not the true number of female homicides. I’ve seen this many times.
sorry kati - are you saying rumpole’s figures are incorrect?
I’m just pointing out something to be aware of. I can’t think of a specific example offhand, often these claims are asserted without a source. But I have done the number crunching myself in many cases. I don’t believe a comparison with women is the fairest one, as the overwhelming majority of murdered trans people are male and men are killed more. But in any case it varies hugely by country, and from year to year depending on the murder rate. I’ve never seen a higher rate of trans murder than that of men, anywhere. Or the general population in every case I can think of.
If you provide an example for a country which cites its source I will tell you which figure for women is being used though.
I’m just pointing out something to be aware of. I can’t think of a specific example offhand, often these claims are asserted without a source. But I have done the number crunching myself in many cases
seriously kati?
you’re going with i have the numbers but they go to another school?
Who do you imagine you're kidding with this act, Chill? Why won't you condemn Warren's lies? Why won't you admit the significant problem of violence females face from males is in no way comparable with the problem of violence males face from males?
The problem was, and remains, your pal Warren and this lie he told (which he goes to great pains to tell often):
Warren: "trans women, already a highly vulnerable minority facing far higher levels of violence than non-trans women"
you’re going with i have the numbers but they go to another school?
I wasn’t making a case for any specific set of numbers, I was pointing out something to be aware of. For instance we know that in the U.K. there is less than one known trans murder a year. Until the murder of Brianna Ghey this year there hasn’t actually been one since January 2019. So whichever of the two figures you use for female homicides this doesn’t make so much of a difference. Obviously it also depends how you define “trans”. The figures make much more of a difference in other countries with higher murder rates of both trans people and women, such as US or Brazil.
If they make it unisex then fvck it, it’s up to the scotch although it’s patently a stupid law. And if it’s passed then yes, it should apply to committing against trans people whatever ill against women it thinks it is addressing.
Passing a law that criminalises only men can fvck off, though. If they proposed this in england it might actually be enough to get me on the streets in protest.
Which raises the Q of what has happened to formerly sensible and small-c conservative nation, Scotland. When did scots, or their politicians, all become fringe-issue loons? You’d think the ludicrously good deal that Scotland gets from membership of the U.K. (which membership is faod a question settled for ten generations by the 2014 referendum) would have les ecossais is kicking back in quiet contentment.
violence against trans women is not restricted to male perpetrators, as recent events have shown.
And even if men are the majority of direct perpetrators of the violence - not proven, but ai would hypothesise it is the case - our legion of vocal anti-trans women - from the middle class mumsnet khunts dressing up their hate as feminism to the eeeeeee he’s just not right is ‘e? grannies on the tills at Londis - are all playing a significant and knowing, often calculated role in creating the climate of hate that provides moral sponsorship for anti-trans violence.
So like people from the Celtic home nations trying to opt out of their forebears’ role in the supposedly English haunts or empire and colonialism, people trying to make transphobia a male thing can get right back up the road and g o f u c k t h e m s e l v e s.
the left is not in an manner captured by woke loons and is going to take a 250 seat majority in the U.K. Parliament after the next election, and I am going to print a picture of your election night sadface and frame it on the wall.
violence against trans women is not restricted to male perpetrators, as recent events have shown.
The vast majority of murders are committed by male people, including both by and to “trans women”. As Rumpole said, violence towards men is a male problem, and violence towards women is also a male problem.
You’re a moron. The 16 year old trans identified child killed this year was likely killed by two younger children at their school, do you think they followed the Maya Forstater case? You’re just as responsible for “sponsoring the conditions” women are raped and murdered in, with your grim, laddish misogyny.
Globally, an estimated 736 million women—almost one in three—have been subjected to physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence, non-partner sexual violence, or both at least once in their life (30 per cent of women aged 15 and older). This figure does not include sexual harassment. The rates of depression, anxiety disorders, unplanned pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections and HIV are higher in women who have experienced violence compared to women who have not, as well as many other health problems that can last even after the violence has ended.
Less than 40 per cent of the women who experience violence seek help of any sort. In the majority of countries with available data on this issue, among women who do seek help, most look to family and friends and very few look to formal institutions, such as police and health services. Less than 10 per cent of those seeking help appealed to the police.
Globally, 6 per cent of women report they have been subjected to sexual violence from someone other than their husband or partner.However, the true prevalence of non-partner sexual violence is likely to be much higher, considering the particular stigma related to this form of violence.
15 million adolescent girls worldwide, aged 15–19 years, have experienced forced sex.In the vast majority of countries, adolescent girls are most at risk of forced sex (forced sexual intercourse or other sexual acts) by a current or former husband, partner, or boyfriend. Based on data from 30 countries, only one per cent have ever sought professional help.
In the Middle East and North Africa, 40–60 per cent of women have experienced street-based sexual harassment.In the multi-country study, women said the harassment was mainly sexual comments, stalking or following, or staring or ogling. Between 31 and 64 per cent of men said they had carried out such acts. Younger men, men with more education, and men who experienced violence as children were more likely to engage in street sexual harassment.
In 2018, for every 10 victims of human trafficking detected globally, 7 were female (five were adult women and two were girls).
Most of the detected victims of trafficking for sexual exploitation (92 per cent) are female.
At least 200 million women and girls, aged 15–49 years, have undergone female genital mutilation in 31 countries where the practice is concentrated.
One in 10 women in the European Union report having experienced cyber-harassment since the age of 15.
In the U.S., two out of every ten young women, aged 18–29, have been sexually harassed online and one in two say they were sent unwarranted explicit images.
In Pakistan, 40 per cent of women had faced various forms of harassment on the internet.
Across five regions, 82 per cent of women parliamentarians reported having experienced some form of psychological violence while serving their terms.This included remarks, gestures, and images of a sexist or humiliating sexual nature, threats, and mobbing. Women cited social media as the main channel of this type of violence, and nearly half (44 per cent) reported receiving death, rape, assault, or abduction threats towards them or their families. Sixty-five per cent had been subjected to sexist remarks, primarily by male colleagues in parliament.
I apologise to the board’s men, btw, for using the misandrist term ”mansplaining”, although perhaps men should own it the way other oppressed groups (eg Spurs fans) have adopted slurs.
You get off on forcing unconsenting strangers on an internet chat forum to endure posts about your sexual proclivities, which nobody wants to read, and it delights you even more when they express that your antisocial behaviour revolts them.
the very point of my post was to differentiate the middle class pretend feminist transphobia or mumsnet from the reflexive misdirected homophobia of the female lumpenproletariat
“You get off on forcing unconsenting strangers on an internet chat forum to endure posts about your sexual proclivities, which nobody wants to read, and it delights you even more when they express that your antisocial behaviour revolts them.”
Many gender critical women, including those who post on Mumsnet, are gay or bisexual themselves. The LGB Alliance was set up because there are people in the LGB community who don’t like the direction of travel. A lot of gender rhetoric is extremely homophobic.
In 2014, more than 73% of those arrested in the US were males.[58] Men accounted for 80.4 percent of persons arrested for violent crime and 62.9 percent of those arrested for property crime.
Even men’s equality advocates like me wouldn’t dispute that men commit crime more frequently than women. But we don’t have a law which says only men (and not women) can commit burglary, or fraud, or speeding offences, although I don’t doubt men are the majority offenders.
now the unasked (by misandrists) question is ‘why’ do men commit more crime? But y’all ain’t ready for that conversation.
Who is y'all? Why not name names if you're so sure of what you assert? There's already a reason on this very thread mentioned by me. There is a risk factor based on biology that males will be violent and antisocial. With that in mind, you assertion is false, as I raised 1 such reason. Should you wish to discuss such a topic, and mindful it's a complex topic to discuss with a lot of different contributing factors, plenty of us would be interested in discussing it.
Anything to say about this lie that the Warrens post time and time again?
Warren: "trans women, already a highly vulnerable minority facing far higher levels of violence than non-trans women"
Anything to say about the above male poster forcing non-consenting others on here to read posts about his sexual proclivities regularly on threads, despite it having been made clear that nobody wants to read such posts from him?
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And tun
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and as i’m sure you’re aware “fights in a bar” isn’t the most common cause of violence, it’s people you know including relatives that cause the most violence
i dunno why they’d choose to wait until their significant other or child or sibling was presenting as their true gender to attack them?
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ah sorry cru - i don’t believe the police are able to reliably record, when presented with a victim, what their gender identity was when they are alive
this is imo true in the uk but more so in southern us states or the favelas of brazil
it’s not about “transphobic” attacks, it’s about real numbers of trans murder victims
whereas rumpole is comparing it to real numbers of female victims (which are obviously much easier to record)
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(and fwiw i feel the same from an evidential perspective on trans suicide rates which are routinely used by trans-affirmative groups - i don’t trust those either)
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"and as i’m sure you’re aware “fights in a bar” isn’t the most common cause of violence, it’s people you know including relatives that cause the most violence"
False. You're deliberately misleading, by taking the male-pattern violence towards females trends and applying them to males.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/art…
"In the year ending March 2022, female victims were more commonly killed by a partner or ex-partner (33%) or a family member (13%). For males the suspected killer was more commonly a friend or acquaintance (18%), stranger (15%) or other known person (9%)."
Stranger on stranger is very much a trend in male-pattern violence towards males.
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How’s the seacret invetigation going Rummers?
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Published female murder figures are often “femicide” which is a narrower definition, where a woman is known to have been killed by one or more men. So often this femicide figure is the one that gets compared to the trans identified male one, not the true number of female homicides. I’ve seen this many times.
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sorry kati - are you saying rumpole’s figures are incorrect?
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or - to be fair - are you saying you’ve seen those figures compared somewhere else (many times ofc)
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(fwiw i agree as i said above that trans murder rates are unreliable so not necessarily disagreeing with you on this!)
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I’m not referring to Rumpole’s post, but other comparisons.
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so hang on
tbis will be a criminal offence that can be committed by a man?
a woman talking graphically about a man she shagged won’t be vulnerable to prosecution?
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can you share them?
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I’m just pointing out something to be aware of. I can’t think of a specific example offhand, often these claims are asserted without a source. But I have done the number crunching myself in many cases. I don’t believe a comparison with women is the fairest one, as the overwhelming majority of murdered trans people are male and men are killed more. But in any case it varies hugely by country, and from year to year depending on the murder rate. I’ve never seen a higher rate of trans murder than that of men, anywhere. Or the general population in every case I can think of.
If you provide an example for a country which cites its source I will tell you which figure for women is being used though.
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don’t be a misogynist Laz. Laws which criminalise men but not women are definitely the best way to make society a fairer place.
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seriously kati?
you’re going with i have the numbers but they go to another school?
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Who do you imagine you're kidding with this act, Chill? Why won't you condemn Warren's lies? Why won't you admit the significant problem of violence females face from males is in no way comparable with the problem of violence males face from males?
The problem was, and remains, your pal Warren and this lie he told (which he goes to great pains to tell often):
Warren: "trans women, already a highly vulnerable minority facing far higher levels of violence than non-trans women"
The risk to females is males
The risk to males is males
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I wasn’t making a case for any specific set of numbers, I was pointing out something to be aware of. For instance we know that in the U.K. there is less than one known trans murder a year. Until the murder of Brianna Ghey this year there hasn’t actually been one since January 2019. So whichever of the two figures you use for female homicides this doesn’t make so much of a difference. Obviously it also depends how you define “trans”. The figures make much more of a difference in other countries with higher murder rates of both trans people and women, such as US or Brazil.
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Just trying to help you assess these types of figures so you can be sure of their veracity, Chill, I’m sure we all want to be accurate, don’t we?
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If they make it unisex then fvck it, it’s up to the scotch although it’s patently a stupid law. And if it’s passed then yes, it should apply to committing against trans people whatever ill against women it thinks it is addressing.
Passing a law that criminalises only men can fvck off, though. If they proposed this in england it might actually be enough to get me on the streets in protest.
Which raises the Q of what has happened to formerly sensible and small-c conservative nation, Scotland. When did scots, or their politicians, all become fringe-issue loons? You’d think the ludicrously good deal that Scotland gets from membership of the U.K. (which membership is faod a question settled for ten generations by the 2014 referendum) would have les ecossais is kicking back in quiet contentment.
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The scots kept voting for the left; the left has been captured by woke loons. No different than in england
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violence against trans women is not restricted to male perpetrators, as recent events have shown.
And even if men are the majority of direct perpetrators of the violence - not proven, but ai would hypothesise it is the case - our legion of vocal anti-trans women - from the middle class mumsnet khunts dressing up their hate as feminism to the eeeeeee he’s just not right is ‘e? grannies on the tills at Londis - are all playing a significant and knowing, often calculated role in creating the climate of hate that provides moral sponsorship for anti-trans violence.
So like people from the Celtic home nations trying to opt out of their forebears’ role in the supposedly English haunts or empire and colonialism, people trying to make transphobia a male thing can get right back up the road and g o f u c k t h e m s e l v e s.
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the left is not in an manner captured by woke loons and is going to take a 250 seat majority in the U.K. Parliament after the next election, and I am going to print a picture of your election night sadface and frame it on the wall.
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The vast majority of murders are committed by male people, including both by and to “trans women”. As Rumpole said, violence towards men is a male problem, and violence towards women is also a male problem.
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nope
there is an active body of anti trans women who very much sponsor and create the conditions for violence against them
sorry if this obvious truth grenade has spattered your cornflake milk all over your face
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You’re a moron. The 16 year old trans identified child killed this year was likely killed by two younger children at their school, do you think they followed the Maya Forstater case? You’re just as responsible for “sponsoring the conditions” women are raped and murdered in, with your grim, laddish misogyny.
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https://www.unwomen.org/en/what-we-do/ending-violence-against-women/fac…
Globally, an estimated 736 million women—almost one in three—have been subjected to physical and/or sexual intimate partner violence, non-partner sexual violence, or both at least once in their life (30 per cent of women aged 15 and older). This figure does not include sexual harassment. The rates of depression, anxiety disorders, unplanned pregnancies, sexually transmitted infections and HIV are higher in women who have experienced violence compared to women who have not, as well as many other health problems that can last even after the violence has ended.
Less than 40 per cent of the women who experience violence seek help of any sort. In the majority of countries with available data on this issue, among women who do seek help, most look to family and friends and very few look to formal institutions, such as police and health services. Less than 10 per cent of those seeking help appealed to the police.
Globally, 6 per cent of women report they have been subjected to sexual violence from someone other than their husband or partner.However, the true prevalence of non-partner sexual violence is likely to be much higher, considering the particular stigma related to this form of violence.
15 million adolescent girls worldwide, aged 15–19 years, have experienced forced sex.In the vast majority of countries, adolescent girls are most at risk of forced sex (forced sexual intercourse or other sexual acts) by a current or former husband, partner, or boyfriend. Based on data from 30 countries, only one per cent have ever sought professional help.
In the Middle East and North Africa, 40–60 per cent of women have experienced street-based sexual harassment.In the multi-country study, women said the harassment was mainly sexual comments, stalking or following, or staring or ogling. Between 31 and 64 per cent of men said they had carried out such acts. Younger men, men with more education, and men who experienced violence as children were more likely to engage in street sexual harassment.
In 2018, for every 10 victims of human trafficking detected globally, 7 were female (five were adult women and two were girls).
Most of the detected victims of trafficking for sexual exploitation (92 per cent) are female.
At least 200 million women and girls, aged 15–49 years, have undergone female genital mutilation in 31 countries where the practice is concentrated.
One in 10 women in the European Union report having experienced cyber-harassment since the age of 15.
In the U.S., two out of every ten young women, aged 18–29, have been sexually harassed online and one in two say they were sent unwarranted explicit images.
In Pakistan, 40 per cent of women had faced various forms of harassment on the internet.
Across five regions, 82 per cent of women parliamentarians reported having experienced some form of psychological violence while serving their terms.This included remarks, gestures, and images of a sexist or humiliating sexual nature, threats, and mobbing. Women cited social media as the main channel of this type of violence, and nearly half (44 per cent) reported receiving death, rape, assault, or abduction threats towards them or their families. Sixty-five per cent had been subjected to sexist remarks, primarily by male colleagues in parliament.
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An example of this would be...?
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KatiB: still nope, sorry
Rumpole - TLDR
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That was to Laz, obviously.
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oh right I see the point of rumpole’s post is that men commit violence against women
nobody’s disputing that men do that. individual men, I mean - we are not a Borg-like gestalt organism with a single guiding brain
this silly law should still apply equally to both sexes if it is to be passed at all HTH, which ofc it will not actually be
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mumsnet TERFism
council estate fishwife comingled transphobia/homophobia (trans and gay being the same thing in the under-schooled mind)
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Being male is a risk factor for being violent
Being male is a risk factor for being antisocial
The risk to males is males
The risk to females is males
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I hate to mansplain this to you but correlation =/= causation
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I apologise to the board’s men, btw, for using the misandrist term ”mansplaining”, although perhaps men should own it the way other oppressed groups (eg Spurs fans) have adopted slurs.
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You don't seem to understand what risk factor means.
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being you seems to be a risk factor for typing a lot of word soup drivel on the internet
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Hilarious ignorance. Have you ever been on Mumsnet? It’s very middle class, rather like this site, but mostly women.
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You get off on forcing unconsenting strangers on an internet chat forum to endure posts about your sexual proclivities, which nobody wants to read, and it delights you even more when they express that your antisocial behaviour revolts them.
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There’s a lot of that about, Rumpole. But of course it’s women’s talkboards which should be censored, definitely.
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the very point of my post was to differentiate the middle class pretend feminist transphobia or mumsnet from the reflexive misdirected homophobia of the female lumpenproletariat
u berk
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Parklife
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“You get off on forcing unconsenting strangers on an internet chat forum to endure posts about your sexual proclivities, which nobody wants to read, and it delights you even more when they express that your antisocial behaviour revolts them.”
heh!
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Is it any surprise that I couldn’t parse your gibbering idiocy?
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no, not parklife
you’re dumb as shit and can’t read life
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have u a sympathy like
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Many gender critical women, including those who post on Mumsnet, are gay or bisexual themselves. The LGB Alliance was set up because there are people in the LGB community who don’t like the direction of travel. A lot of gender rhetoric is extremely homophobic.
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all true
back to the point tho
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Kudos to this brave lady for speaking out against Jeffrey Marsh
https://twitter.com/shumirunnessa
Predictably, she's now being subject to abuse for her religion, hijab, sex, and her car has been damaged.
Predictably, she has been called x-phobic.
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Julie Bindel - lesbian
Kathleen Stock - lesbian
Allison Bailey - lesbian
Jane Clare Jones - lesbian
and countless women I can’t name for privacy reasons, who you wouldn’t have heard of.
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oh, the world contains some people I haven’t heard of? well that totally wins you the point
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From Wikipedia :
Even men’s equality advocates like me wouldn’t dispute that men commit crime more frequently than women. But we don’t have a law which says only men (and not women) can commit burglary, or fraud, or speeding offences, although I don’t doubt men are the majority offenders.
now the unasked (by misandrists) question is ‘why’ do men commit more crime? But y’all ain’t ready for that conversation.
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I once again refer you to the first sentence of my 9.45 post this morning, which covers everything I wish to add.
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Does it say that you are a dribbling bigot that hates men?
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"But y’all ain’t ready for that conversation."
Who is y'all? Why not name names if you're so sure of what you assert? There's already a reason on this very thread mentioned by me. There is a risk factor based on biology that males will be violent and antisocial. With that in mind, you assertion is false, as I raised 1 such reason. Should you wish to discuss such a topic, and mindful it's a complex topic to discuss with a lot of different contributing factors, plenty of us would be interested in discussing it.
Anything to say about this lie that the Warrens post time and time again?
Warren: "trans women, already a highly vulnerable minority facing far higher levels of violence than non-trans women"
Anything to say about the above male poster forcing non-consenting others on here to read posts about his sexual proclivities regularly on threads, despite it having been made clear that nobody wants to read such posts from him?
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“nobody’s disputing that men do that. individual men, I mean - we are not a Borg-like gestalt organism with a single guiding brain”
I do think a lot of people think this, you know
not just about gender - about politics generally
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No, it’s actually applicable to you too. Take a look.
Join the discussion