In the race to make billions as a founder the pressures are immense and as a result time and time again we see some founders taking short cuts (whether that’s lying to banks, misusing funds or just cutting corners with compliance). Have no ideas what happened here but the process in the aftermath is familiar
To the founders it’s all-in so plenty will take those risks as only a few make it to unicorn status.
When it goes tits up the banks and investors crawl all over the carcass to find someone to blame. That’s when these founders become unstuck or not. We’ll see.
I think Laz is suggesting it's fine for us all to take client money to buy houses and yachts. That's going to massively accelerate my retirement plans.
He was wrapped up in the effective altruism cult which seems to imbue members with the belief that anything they do is worthy because they are doing it in the name of effective altruism.
They have gone from "I am working out how much I need to live per annum and giving every extra cent I earn to mosquito net and clean water charities" to "I am going to talk about giving money away while actually spending all my time and money on AI instead of doing any good at all for people suffering now".
Totally bananas and he was right in the thick of it.
He was also arrogantly dismissive of simple principles of business accountability which he also put in the "yeah but this is different and that's where you old dudes have been getting this all wrong" bucket. That's wound the enforcement world up bigly.
He blatantly is a fraudster. He used money from customers' accounts as a personal slush fund.
What's more interesting to me is how his mum and dad (both Stanford professors) were equally in on the grift.
Hope he gets a long time in the slammer.
I think he will but his disciples who also eschew business norms in the name of radical free thinking will maintain the narrative that he is the victim of conformist thinking and entirely innocent. The crypto bollox will continue with a large slice of people saying "yeah but it goes up to 11" and staring blankly at the unbelievers. He's the Messiah, you know.
It’s difficult to know if, at first, he knew how illegal his activities were (crypto is the “Wild West”, no team experience with compliance, or any work at all really). But there was certainly a point at which he became aware, and kept going anyway. Too much power and money at that point. Hard to say with certainty that any of us would act different at that point. We all like to think we would, but in the event it would be very difficult.
I think it's fair to say that at Jane Street where he worked initially he would have felt like a god but he had people around him to check his worst excesses. He moved into an environment where those checks were gone and failed to adapt his behaviour accordingly.
It’s difficult to know if, at first, he knew how illegal his activities were (crypto is the “Wild West”, no team experience with compliance, or any work at all really). But there was certainly a point at which he became aware, and kept going anyway.
indeed. and after the event he made statements about that conduct which pretty much slams the prison bars on his wiener.
The cynic in me says every tech bro is like this some degree (be it lying about product or market, treating investors as second rate citizens and consumers as a fleecing opportunity). But he had all the flaws running at 110% and no restraining mechanism or, after the event, sense of having done anything wrong.
FTX did work and was not a con so it is not an Elizabeth Holmes situation. However it does seem that he had no problems with using the client money at FTX for the other company AR never mind the massive spending - I just don;'t understand why his parents thought it fine to have a £16m house put in their name (now apparently about to be given back) even though is father had started at FTX by then on 200k a year and was asking for more.
SBF says he relied on lawyers' advice but I am not so sure.
I think it was obviously fraud but I also think that he probably didnt regard it as such. He may well have been a brilliant maths guy but had no business experience and was suddenly worth billions and just rode the wave.
It is a very good lesson to others about the importance of corp governance, but the problem is as always , founders particularly in new high tech or fintech start ups dont want to hear about and are often not prepared to invest in it at the start and then the chickens come home.
Ime start uos are riddled with fraud. Often this is accidental because people set up companies without changing their sole trader/family business mentality.
Sometimes these businesses grow into absokute behemoths and it becomes the devils own job to unpick it all.
This is the one benefit if private equity in my opinion - they at least tidy up most of this sort mess before the group goes bust
Everyone gets found guilty in trials like this because of jury nullification.
American popular culture lionises startups, risk-taking and the rich, but political populists are always ready to snap their jackboot down on the neck of risk takers if they get their calculation wrong. And juries their willing dopes. Because of course, America being one of the biggest social justice vacuums in the world, hatred of the supposed American Dream rich lurks everywhere just below the surface.
In Britain, supposed hive of leftist scum and villainy in the minds of its own native rightist liars, the rich are in fact loathed much less.
the other thing people don’t realise is that loads of other people all over the shop are running today exactly the kind of business FTX was running
crypto brokerage is big business and pretty soon the full range of investment, brokerage and banking services will be available in crypto as in other investment classes and with fiat currencies.
What’s interesting is that, like fellow tech robin hood Kim Dotcom before him, SBF was based for quite some time in Hong Kong. He and I walked the same streets for some time. Wonder if our paths crossed before he was famous enough for me to note. I knew a few crypto heads there including an ex bulge bracket trading MD who founded a crypto fund and took up permanent residency at Burning Man
At one point, SBF reportedly offered to personally pay off the national debt of the Bahamas in return for the government contractually delegating to him the power to set infrastructure investment priorities and set policy. BALLER MOVE! Awesome
So when you say ‘The Narrative’ does that mean you are still maintaining he wasn’t frauding or are you trying to shift this conversation away from that particular claim you made?
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tbh anyone with a haircut like that is totes a fraudster
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Exactly, and he has a stupid face! I rest my case YOUR HONOUR!!!
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If he broke the rules he’s a fraudster. Hth.
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‘I rest my case YOUR HONOUR!!!’
heh
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all that bloody red tape and the blob no doubt
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Based on my extensive watching of Billions, I agree
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In the race to make billions as a founder the pressures are immense and as a result time and time again we see some founders taking short cuts (whether that’s lying to banks, misusing funds or just cutting corners with compliance). Have no ideas what happened here but the process in the aftermath is familiar
To the founders it’s all-in so plenty will take those risks as only a few make it to unicorn status.
When it goes tits up the banks and investors crawl all over the carcass to find someone to blame. That’s when these founders become unstuck or not. We’ll see.
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I think Laz is suggesting it's fine for us all to take client money to buy houses and yachts. That's going to massively accelerate my retirement plans.
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Well, that seemed to work fine for Axiom, so why not?
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Don't know enough about the situation but I'm skeptical that he's obviously not a fraudster, since he's on trial for fraud.
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He blatantly is a fraudster. He used money from customers' accounts as a personal slush fund.
What's more interesting to me is how his mum and dad (both Stanford professors) were equally in on the grift.
Hope he gets a long time in the slammer.
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He was wrapped up in the effective altruism cult which seems to imbue members with the belief that anything they do is worthy because they are doing it in the name of effective altruism.
They have gone from "I am working out how much I need to live per annum and giving every extra cent I earn to mosquito net and clean water charities" to "I am going to talk about giving money away while actually spending all my time and money on AI instead of doing any good at all for people suffering now".
Totally bananas and he was right in the thick of it.
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He was also arrogantly dismissive of simple principles of business accountability which he also put in the "yeah but this is different and that's where you old dudes have been getting this all wrong" bucket. That's wound the enforcement world up bigly.
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throwthedice05 Oct 23 10:43
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He blatantly is a fraudster. He used money from customers' accounts as a personal slush fund.
What's more interesting to me is how his mum and dad (both Stanford professors) were equally in on the grift.
Hope he gets a long time in the slammer.
I think he will but his disciples who also eschew business norms in the name of radical free thinking will maintain the narrative that he is the victim of conformist thinking and entirely innocent. The crypto bollox will continue with a large slice of people saying "yeah but it goes up to 11" and staring blankly at the unbelievers. He's the Messiah, you know.
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I'm not sure that deciding that the company needs to spend a few million on an apartment in the Bahamas is really radical new business thinking.
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The money moves to his gfs hedge fund were highly dodge no??
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Mottled, he's not the Messiah, he's alleged to have been a very naughty boy.
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Muttley, FFS. Apologies
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It’s difficult to know if, at first, he knew how illegal his activities were (crypto is the “Wild West”, no team experience with compliance, or any work at all really). But there was certainly a point at which he became aware, and kept going anyway. Too much power and money at that point. Hard to say with certainty that any of us would act different at that point. We all like to think we would, but in the event it would be very difficult.
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I would expect my board to ask me very carefully if I really thought the company needed a jet.
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I think it's fair to say that at Jane Street where he worked initially he would have felt like a god but he had people around him to check his worst excesses. He moved into an environment where those checks were gone and failed to adapt his behaviour accordingly.
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HighJinx05 Oct 23 14:48
Reply | Report
It’s difficult to know if, at first, he knew how illegal his activities were (crypto is the “Wild West”, no team experience with compliance, or any work at all really). But there was certainly a point at which he became aware, and kept going anyway.
indeed. and after the event he made statements about that conduct which pretty much slams the prison bars on his wiener.
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The cynic in me says every tech bro is like this some degree (be it lying about product or market, treating investors as second rate citizens and consumers as a fleecing opportunity). But he had all the flaws running at 110% and no restraining mechanism or, after the event, sense of having done anything wrong.
Most techbros get away with this though.
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FTX did work and was not a con so it is not an Elizabeth Holmes situation. However it does seem that he had no problems with using the client money at FTX for the other company AR never mind the massive spending - I just don;'t understand why his parents thought it fine to have a £16m house put in their name (now apparently about to be given back) even though is father had started at FTX by then on 200k a year and was asking for more.
SBF says he relied on lawyers' advice but I am not so sure.
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spending all your money on AI is good because AI is cool and is going to own everything
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Aged well.
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BBC (and others) reporting that SBF is likely to be sent to jail for decades.
The US's insane sentencing practices aside, wonder if this will put the wind up other tech bro/ wild west cryto types who fly close to the sun.
At least Madoff could take comfort from the fact that he was 70s when he went to the slammer and had largely lived his life (and lived it large).
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One can but hope. Not going to save us from Anal Mask though, is it?
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this did indeed age well yes
certainly, nothing has emerged to refute what I said above
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Other than the fact that you said he was blatantly not a fraudster but it took a jury only 4 hours to find that he was?
On all 7 counts.
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I think it was obviously fraud but I also think that he probably didnt regard it as such. He may well have been a brilliant maths guy but had no business experience and was suddenly worth billions and just rode the wave.
It is a very good lesson to others about the importance of corp governance, but the problem is as always , founders particularly in new high tech or fintech start ups dont want to hear about and are often not prepared to invest in it at the start and then the chickens come home.
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juries talk shite
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it’s been presented as fraud that he took customer deposits and lent them out, like crypto prime brokerage
that was the very point of the business - crypto banking - and was set out in the terms and conditions
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Ime start uos are riddled with fraud. Often this is accidental because people set up companies without changing their sole trader/family business mentality.
Sometimes these businesses grow into absokute behemoths and it becomes the devils own job to unpick it all.
This is the one benefit if private equity in my opinion - they at least tidy up most of this sort mess before the group goes bust
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Everyone gets found guilty in trials like this because of jury nullification.
American popular culture lionises startups, risk-taking and the rich, but political populists are always ready to snap their jackboot down on the neck of risk takers if they get their calculation wrong. And juries their willing dopes. Because of course, America being one of the biggest social justice vacuums in the world, hatred of the supposed American Dream rich lurks everywhere just below the surface.
In Britain, supposed hive of leftist scum and villainy in the minds of its own native rightist liars, the rich are in fact loathed much less.
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You mean the funds he loaned to a firm of which he was 90% owner in contravention of FTX’s terms of service?
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that may be the case but it was reported as if the very concept of prime brokerage is fraud
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I thought laz had a proven track record of startups all leading to IPOs?
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did you?
the other thing people don’t realise is that loads of other people all over the shop are running today exactly the kind of business FTX was running
crypto brokerage is big business and pretty soon the full range of investment, brokerage and banking services will be available in crypto as in other investment classes and with fiat currencies.
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Crypto is arrant bollocks. As the fate of this joker demonstrates. Hth
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heh ok grandad
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+1 for jailing him for his stupid face
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yes, even if not strictly guilty he should still be imprisoned simply for being an annoying little twerp
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What’s interesting is that, like fellow tech robin hood Kim Dotcom before him, SBF was based for quite some time in Hong Kong. He and I walked the same streets for some time. Wonder if our paths crossed before he was famous enough for me to note. I knew a few crypto heads there including an ex bulge bracket trading MD who founded a crypto fund and took up permanent residency at Burning Man
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anyone else reading the Michael Lewis book about SBF?
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So just to be clear laz, you’ve now shifted from ‘he clearly isn’t guilty’ to ‘the press aren’t very good at explaining crypto brokerage’?
That is a fair summary, yes?
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The Zeke Fault book is much better than the Lewis book. The Lewis book is good except the final chapter which is absurd.
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*Faul. It also has a much better title!
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The bloke obviously did some frauding, but this is one of laz's regular boredom busting blusterings so I'm shrugging.
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It was robbing clients money but cleverly dressed up as a fund that was allowed to short as much as it wanted on margin.
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heh @ u guys chugging The Narrative down like a bus stop hooker
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At one point, SBF reportedly offered to personally pay off the national debt of the Bahamas in return for the government contractually delegating to him the power to set infrastructure investment priorities and set policy. BALLER MOVE! Awesome
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“a fund that was allowed to short as much as it wanted on margin”
siri, write me a nonsense poem using financial language
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Heh. Your are Michael Lewis AICM 5 FTT
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laz re lewis what is new book pls?
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The Contrarian is genuinely in the crucible of humiliation.
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It’s called Going Infinite
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Heh! Marshall’s here! When old guys attack
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Fcking lol @ the OP
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So when you say ‘The Narrative’ does that mean you are still maintaining he wasn’t frauding or are you trying to shift this conversation away from that particular claim you made?
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The Lewis book contains this excellent job spec for the role of crypto saleswoman in China, from 2019:
Requirements: pretty; big boobs; has done webcam before; born 2000 or after; good at chitchatting
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