A barrister has raised £60,000 in 24 hours to bring a case for victimisation against her chambers and LGBT group Stonewall, despite her crowdfunding page being suspended.

Allison Bailey has accused Garden Court Chambers and Stonewall of indirectly discriminating against her by treating her as "bigoted" for holding gender critical beliefs, the core of which is that biological sex is immutable and people cannot change sex.

Bailey claims that Stonewall sought to "intimidate and silence" her by telling Garden Court Chambers that it needed to take action against her or risk damaging its relationship with the influential charity, which certifies the set as a 'Stonewall Diversity Champion'. Last November Garden Court Chambers investigated Bailey and upheld some of its findings, prompting her to propose her employment tribunal action.

Bailey, who is a lesbian, alleges that Stonewall targeted her because she helped found LGB Alliance, a gay rights group which has expressed misgivings about Stonewall's direction and power. 

Bailey wrote on her CrowdJustice case page that she was concerned with Stonewall's redefinition of homosexuality from 'same sex attraction’ to ‘same gender attraction’. She said Stonewall's stance, which means males can identify as lesbians, has led to lesbians being encouraged to have sex with transwomen and “excoriated for bigotry and transphobia" for being same sex attracted.

She also objected to Stonewall's campaign to amend the Equality Act 2010 to remove exceptions which prevent trans-identified males being admitted into female spaces, which she said would adversely impact upon women in sport, and make women and girls more uncomfortable and vulnerable to male violence in spaces such as changing rooms, prisons, refuges and hospitals. Stonewall made the change as part of its support for transgender people, but Bailey said that “if the new trans activism is not brought to heel, women will disappear as a political class”.


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Bailey and a few messages from people who probably didn’t donate.


Bailey raised £48,000 from thousands of donors in six hours on Saturday before CrowdJustice pulled down her case page at 2pm citing "serious complaints".

In an initial statement the platform said, "We messed up. We allowed Ms Bailey's CrowdJustice page to launch before its content in its entirety met the high standards that our community expects of us".

It subsequently re-opened the page after deleting most of the content, including Bailey's picture, references to her being black or a lesbian, her specific issues with Stonewall, her gender critical beliefs, and all messages from donors. Contrary to CrowdJustice's usual practice, it also prevented further donations once Bailey's first "stretch target" of £60,000 was reached. 

In a follow-up statement, CrowdJustice said Bailey had used "unnecessarily inflammatory and offensive" language, and that because she refused to amend her page, it would not allow her to collect more money as "we could not accurately represent to backers what any further funds would be used for".

"I felt sick. I had been shut down, stopped from speaking", said Bailey in a detailed statement. "But I will not stop speaking, and I will not be erased".

A Stonewall spokesperson said, "We work with a diverse range of organisations through our Diversity Champions programme to give advice on tackling homophobic, biphobic and transphobic discrimination and how they can be more inclusive of LGBT people. While we aren’t able to comment on individual cases, we know it’s vital businesses take active steps in creating equality for all lesbian, gay, bi and trans people".

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Comments

Nexis 03 July 20 09:27

An absolute disgrace.  The comments she received tell you all you need to know about who was responsible for getting the crowdfunder stopped.  When they are coming for the black lesbians, you know you are in trouble.

ChitChat 03 July 20 09:44

Too many law firms have been 'Stonewalled', and many women and LGB people are worried to say so publicly. Allison Bailey has been treated appallingly - very interested to see how this one plays out.

Siegfreid 03 July 20 09:54

Just take a watching brief on these comments, Nexis. It will draw them like wasps to jam. From memory, what tweaked the nose of Stonewall was her statement that she, as a lesbian woman, would not sleep with a trans woman because of the willy and all. This is the cause of the outrage. 

Dearie 03 July 20 10:00

Good grief the censorship of women who hold slightly different views is astonishing. I read her initial crowdfunder and saw nothing "inflammatory or offensive", it just stated the arguments she was going to raise. Oh well, if she's upset Owen Jones then she must be doing something right.

Wayward Lawyer 03 July 20 10:00

This is all too complicated for me to have an opinion based on a ROF story... but the tweet about not wanting to date someone because they're trans is transphobic caught my eye. Query whether the same "logic" (emphasis on the quotation marks) would apply to a LGBT who doesn't want to date someone from the other gender/sexual orientation/[insert term of choice] - would they be heterophobic? This is really a minefield. I used to think that policing people's sexual preferences and desires was something the LGBT community fought against.

Anonymous 03 July 20 10:05

How dare she not be attracted to me. Just because I have a willy and a magnificent bush of chest hair should not make a difference, as I am definitely a lesbian because I said so.

Ridiculous.

This really sounds like a group of people who can't stand the fact that another group of people are not attracted to them.

On a side note, I am suing Mila Kunis for not being attracted to me.

WorkingFromHome 03 July 20 10:38

I watched all this unfold. It was Orwellian. Because they could see the vast amount of support Allison was getting and the fact that the fundraiser was going to break its target within 24-hours they refused to allow any more payments once it had reached the 60,000. They have never ever done this to any other fundraiser which looks very discriminatory to me. To discriminate against a black lesbian is not a good look for any service provider.

Anonymous 03 July 20 11:05

Absolutely disgraceful behaviour from Garden Court, Stonewall, CrowdJustice, AND legal commentators!

A Charity extracted complaints from third party organisations, against a barrister that had criticised it. The Charity then directed those complaints to her Chamber, whom it threatened with their relationship if they did not discipline said barrister.

The Chamber caved to pressure from the Charity and publicly announced that it was investigating the barrister before it even informed her. It then colluded with the charity, including holding meetings with the charity about the barrister and their investigation. 

A supposedly impartial platform for raising funds to access justice, who vetted and approved the barrister's statement on her fundraising page, was cowed into taking down her page on some bogus claim that some of her statements (including MoJ statistics) were hateful. 

Throughout all of this, prominent legal commentators kept quiet. They said absolutely nothing. 

You do not have to be for or against any of the parties to see how incredibly chilling this is and the dangerous precedent it will set if unchallenged.

Middle aged legal cynic 03 July 20 11:31

Stonewall wields power over law firms by certifying they are diverse but with the risk that they will be “cancelled” if they do not support some of the more outlandish demands re trans.

My firm posted a link to Stonewalls views about GRA reform without any acknowledgement that reasonable people might not want people with penises in their lavvies.

Middle aged legal cynic 03 July 20 11:40

Stonewall wields power over law firms by certifying they are diverse but with the risk that they will be “cancelled” if they do not support some of the more outlandish demands re trans.

My firm posted a link to Stonewalls views about GRA reform without any acknowledgement that reasonable people might not want people with penises in their lavvies.

More complicated 03 July 20 11:51

I don't think the authors of this story or the people commenting above fully appreciate much of the background to this debacle. There has been growing tension for a number of years between so-called TERFS (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) and the wider LGBTQ activist community (in this case, represented by Stonewall). For a good example, see JK Rowling throwing her hat into the ring a few weeks ago with her comments on "real women". 

While there has been a lot of hyperbole and vitriol thrown about by both sides of "feud" for years, Allison Bailey knew exactly what she was doing. Creating an "LGB Alliance" had nothing to do with supporting the rights of "LGB" people; it's really about making a point that you're against trans people and picking further 'fights' with other activists. It's disheartening so-called TERFS and other LGBTQ culture warriors are more concerned with fighting amongst themselves than actually focussing on the groups they claim to represent.... 

Pass the popcorn though, the twitter fights can make for some juicy reading.... 

Anon 03 July 20 12:01

What happened to sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt? WHAT has happened to free speech in this country? What has happened to freedom of thought and WHAT has happened to the skill of debate to convince the other side to change view? We are living in a terrible Alice Through the Looking Glass meets 1984 nightmare where we are NOT allowed to tolerate others but must confirm to a radical leftist topsy turvey agenda where biology is a myth, sin is inherited and common sense compassion and acceptance is wrong.

 

The return of Rumours 03 July 20 12:02

Fascists trying to shut her down.

Free speech apparently means you're free to say what you want so long as it accords with MY BELIEFS.

 

Sick.

 

 

Anon 03 July 20 12:03

I do think there is a difference between people's sexual preferences and access to safe spaces. Let's make all toilets unisex and this debate would be over. As for sexual preferences, most people have a 'type' and it is not trans/homo/hetero/etc phobic to have it, it's just how it works. That logic should not be used when deciding who can use safe spaces though. 

Siegfreid 03 July 20 12:03

You said "TERF". The bollocks starts right there. 

Anon2 03 July 20 12:34

Anon, you say “let’s make all the toilets unisex and this debate would be over”. Unfortunately this is not a single issue debate. Setting aside whether women or children would feel safe in a small room with a number of cubicles off it, the issue of single sex provision goes much further: sports categories, women’s awards, diversity on panels, etc etc. And this does not even touch on the mastectomies on teenagers (and other irreversible medical interventions), or trying to understand the 4000% increase in young girls presenting as transgender. 

Women are being  expected to permit wide ranging changes, and have not been asked whether this is OK. And any attempt to flag concerns is shouted down by way of insults, death threats and threats of sexual abuse. Twitter is awash. 

Brup 03 July 20 12:38

‘More complicated’, impartial straight male observer here. You spend a lot for words saying that people don’t understand the argument, but don’t say how. Can you illuminate us? Alison makes some clear criticisms of what stonewall is doing, as reported in the story, and assuming she describes its campaigns correctly, I can see why women and lesbians might be flagging issues. (Are gay men also not worried that they will be called transphobic for not fancying transmen?) (And straight women actually) (in fact am I transphobic for not fancying transwomen because they’re trans?)

Anonymous 03 July 20 12:58

I honestly despair. I came out as a teen lesbian activist in the late 1990s and thought Stonewall represented me. Campaigned hard to repeal s28, equal age of consent and then took my eye of the ball as I raised a family, went about my life. Woke up in an alternative reality where lesbians are phobic for not wanting to have sex with biological men, where gender trump's sex and T rights are apparently part of gay rights? Not that I'm not in favour of transsexual rights but I am totally confused about why a feeling you gave been born in the wrong body is the same as wanting the right to have our same sex relationships recognised.

Anyway rant over. I pledged and commented to Alison's appeal. And I have never done this before. But I am so angry. And then hours later her page gets removed because of complaints. A pre vetted page (sorry I don't think this rant is anywhere near over....) WTF!!!! I could cope if this was happening in the name of trans rights, but for a gay organisation saying this is for my benefit as an LGBT person (I am not and have never questioned my gender - I struggle daily with the social constructs forced on me, but I am and have always been a woman) is horrific.

 

Conveyancer 03 July 20 13:01

It's important for all sorts of reasons that women are allowed to define themselves in law as adult human females and distinct from adult human males who identify themselves as women. There should be room in a democratic society for everyone's voices to be heard and everyone's needs to be met. I am really uncomfortable with cries of "transphobia" being used to silence every genuine concern about the reality of allowing someone born male to call himself a woman. Especially as no medical transition is now apparently needed. Genuine transexuals are one thing, a bloke in a wig and lippy a completely different matter. 

Bertiesmum 03 July 20 14:10

Saw this as it happened. Crowd justice, who claimed to not make any judgement about any case, have done just that and acted as judge and jury under pressure from powerful organisations . The machinations of Stonewall and others are reprehensible. This black lesbian barrister may be denied justice because of their actions. If you want to know who holds power look at who you are not allowed to criticise. Crowd justice is a tool of oppressive powerful lobby groups

how can I donate money to Alison? 03 July 20 14:12

I'd like to - I think a court needs to bring some common sense to this

More complicated 03 July 20 14:38

'Brup' -  If you want to read more, back in September, Vox published this article about the so-called TERF "movement" which has always been more popular in the UK than the US.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/9/5/20840101/terfs-radical-feminists-gender-critical

I think people have grouped Allison Bailey, and other people who share her views, as "free speech" victims without knowing much about the context for these kind of TERF v "Stonewall" battles. That doesn't mean I support "cancel" culture, Allison losing her job, or Stonewall waging some sort of counter-war against people like Allison. But people like Bailey have a strange view that trans people somehow pose a threat to them. It was black and brown trans women that led the first Stonewall riots in the first place. I'm only sharing this not because I'm pro/against any particular person or organisation on these issues. I just think the discussion would benefit from some more background to how people like Allison Bailey and the "LGB Alliance" got here in the first place. 

 

Vox wring 03 July 20 14:48

Vox story.

Ok I’ve read it. It’s incoherent! Is that the best you’ve got? It’s a confused polemic that twists to match the conclusions it wants to reach.

Also it’s utter bull. “According to Heron Greenesmith, who studies the modern gender-critical movement as a senior research associate with the social justice think tank Political Research Associates, gender-critical feminism in the UK grew out of a toxic mix of historical imperialism and the influence of the broader UK skeptical movement”. Eh?

Gender Critical Lawyer 03 July 20 15:07

Thank you ROF for providing such a clear-cut and illuminating summary of what happened over the weekend.  The actions of CrowdJustice are Orwellian in the extreme.  The fact that a black lesbian is targeted in this way and exposed to such hatred highlights the power of the transactivitists and their use of social media to coerce and bully anyone who does not agree with their mantra. 

The fact that many law firms (particularly in the City) have affiliated themselves with Stonewall and are pushing the 'diversity' flag without a thought for the consequences on women is worrying.  

Few people are brave enough to speak out.  Looking at the abuse, death threats and sexually-violent comments made against JK Rowling for expressing that there is a bilogical difference between men and women, means that people are fearful of expressing gender critical views.  Women are being doxxed, harassed and threatened every day for saying that men cannot become women.  Thank you Allison for taking on the bullies.

Anon 03 July 20 15:14

@ 14:38. stop re-writing the history of the Stonewall riots!!  Marsha Johnson was a gay drag queen and called himself "he" but has now been reclassified as a trans woman.  Conveniently he is no longer alive to dispute this.  And what about Stormé DeLarverie, a black lesbian, whose involvement seems to be conveniently airbrushed out.

I think you will also find that the more "agnostic" people read into these matters, the more they support the likes of JK Rowling and Allison Bailey.   It is all emperor's new clothes syndrome but more people are beginning to pipe up like the little boy did.

anon 03 July 20 15:17

@ Gender Critical Lawyer - exactly!  I am all for live and let live, but not when children are targeted and abused women are bulled for not wanting male bodies in their safe spaces.  "Be kind" we are told.  Well I don't see the trans lobbying being kind.  And don't get me started on the "cis" label - my firm has started using this and I find it offensive and repugnant.  I do not consent to being re-labelled.  But no one cares because that makes me a "transphobe" apparently.

JK Rowling's Haunted House 03 July 20 15:28

Watch Disclosure on Netflix for a deep insight into how the media has trained us to view trans people over the last 100 years.

ruftytufty 03 July 20 15:47

And the tagline on Garden Court Chambers' website is "Fearless in the Pursuit of Justice". 

Anonynony 03 July 20 16:08

For anybody new to this debate, gender critical feminists consider the term TERF to be offensive. We also object to being called 'cis' women, even though many of our firms have been 'Stonewalled' and now require it.  Thank you ROF for publishing this piece and allowing these comments - on most other website we are immediately shut down as 'transphobes' for expressing our views.

Station Road 03 July 20 16:28

God what a bunch of ill-informed idiots most of you are.  Brexit Britain at its best.  The murder ratefrate trans people is incredibly high, they are they people in danger here.. This women wants to eradicate them. She has not been silenced for being black or being a lesbian but because she spreads hate speech.  She is a member of the LGB Nazi Alliance. Trans rights in no way infrigne women's rights.  Read a book people not the red top newspapers.

Anonymous 03 July 20 16:35

If that's true 16:08 maybe consider it's because you represent  a deeply unpleasant group of ideological fanatics intent on spreading hate speech and baseless lies through any means necessary. Roll on Friday's clear and ongoing bias towards overt support for your cause is disgusting.

Said in full expectation they will censor this post as they do 90% of other that call them out for it.

Anon 03 July 20 16:39

Can we not stop treating the other side as one unified block. Both camps show the worst sides of human behaviour. How neither is trying to address the real issues and find solutions is beyond me. It is obvious that trans people need to be accepted and accommodated. Period. It is also clear that some 'cis' women (sorry but it's a shorthand, happy to use other appropriate word if someone suggests) have concerns about their safe spaces invaded and that should be addressed. So what are the options? It's not enough to argue that your rights should be protected and the fact that this puts others at more risk is well.. just life and get over it.  

Anonymous 03 July 20 16:49

Every time RoF publishes this kind of unbalanced transphobic bigoted drivel I make a point of making a further donation to Stonewall to support the excellent work they do combating hatespeech and providing a genuine voice for LGBT people.

Gender Critical Lawyer 03 July 20 16:58

The idea that women should just roll over and let their hard-won rights be taken away is absured.  There is a clear answer - a third space for people who identify as trans.  The issue is that the TRAs have absolutely no desire for a third space and trans-women are adamant they want access to female spaces (women's prisons, refuges, toilets, sports - the list is endless).  One only has to read the Karen White debacle to see why letting men who identify as women into women's prisons isn't a good idea.  Similarly, the fact that Canadian women's refuges are being shut down for failing to accommodate men who identify as women simply means that more vulnerable women lose out.

Transwomen in the UK are not at any higher risk of murder.  There has been one transwoman killed in the UK in the year between 2017 and 2018.  There have been nine transpeople murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017.  Conversely, on average, two women per week in the UK are murdered by their partners.  

Certainly there may be a higher risk of violence against trans-women in other countries, where sex work amongst trans-women is high.  Those that are doing the killing are men.  Why, therefore, people continue to attack women for failing to 'be nicer', when it's men that are doing the damage, is nothing other than basic misogyny.  

Anonymous 03 July 20 16:59

How is this possibly unbalanced, transphobic or bigoted? It simply sets out - as reported elsewhere - a set of circumstances of interest to the legal sector without taking any side or pushing any line. It is an unbiased, excellent piece of reporting. Your misplaced fury demonstrates exactly what Allison was up against and why this needs to be covered. 

Anon 03 July 20 17:03

* The murder ratefrate trans people is incredibly high*

evidence please 

i believe in the U.K. the murder rate of trans ppl is so low, there are more trans identifying murderers that victims. The oft quoted statistics are taken from South American sex workers, where the rates are tragically sky high for both women and trans people. (Higher for women i believe)

Meanwhile, in the U.K.  2 women a week are murderd by a partner or ex  

 

Listen 03 July 20 17:07

@Anon 16.28, 16.35 & 16.49 -

Have you considered, ever, that all these women (& some men) are maybe not just raging alt-right bigots but are just trying to talk about how the major, MAJOR cultural, social & legal changes we're going through atm that might affect women?

We are told 80% or so of transwomen do not have genital reassignment surgery.  Can you honestly say you do not see a conflict with womens' desire to not have male-bodied pple in a womens' rape centre/refuge and transwomens' needs?

Can you honestly not understand that vulnerable women in prisons and on medical wards, often victims of male violence and sexual abuse, may be anxious about sharing these spaces with male-bodied people?

Can you honestly say it is OK that some young lesbians are feeling pressured into considering male-bodied transwomen at partners against their desire, for fear of being called transphobes?

I have never met any woman who says that transwomen do not also deserve equal protection and help.  They want to discuss these matters to give equal consideration to each vulnerable groups needs without being called transphobes and shut down. 

Anon 03 July 20 17:18

@Gender Critical Lawyer Your analysis somehow assumed that there is no violence by women. Once you take this into account you realise and the only baddies are cis men. There are bad people everywhere, when it comes to violence it is about the degrees of risk. Generally cis men are safer than cis women, white safer than BAME and obviously cis is safer than trans. 

On 3rd spaces, I think you either do not know or ignore the issues that this would create to trans people (even if we ignore the fact that funding is just not there) and in no way addresses the need from trans people to be fully accepted. This pretend solution is just a fig leaf to try to cover up you simply not caring for a very vulnerable section of our society.  

Funny how Karen White so critical to your argument (one trans person) but a few trans people murdered is of little significance. Come on! 

Anonymous 03 July 20 17:20

@Station Road.  There's a difference between wanting to eradicate someone and objecting to being labelled a bigot because you don't want to have sex with them.

Anon 03 July 20 17:29

 *This pretend solution is just a fig leaf to try to cover up you simply not caring for a very vulnerable section of our society*

how vulnerable though?

more vulnerable than, say babies, the elderly, the infirm, people with PTSD, ASD, blind, deaf, in a wheelchair? What about women from sections of society who simply cannot for religious or cultural beliefs share facilities, travellers, Muslim women, orthodox Jewish women.

there is a constant narrative from stonewall et al that trans people are vulnerable. I do think we need to investigate and evidence this, rather than blindly accept. I suspect the situation is significantly more nuanced  

It isn’t a matter of not caring.  It is simply that other people also exist, and their needs must be balanced. 

Anonymous 03 July 20 17:29

Well done James (and P&M) for publishing this. 

I have been a supporter of transfolk for over 30 years - ever since my best mate bravely transitioned over 30 years ago.  Transfolk deserve the same respect and freedom from harm as anyone in society.  But I and many of my trans friends are alarmed at how the debate has been hijacked in recent years by an extreme radical group with a powerful lobby behind them to turn the conversation from one about respect and freedom to one dominated outright misogyny and downright terrifying censorship. 

To those extremists: you have the right to freedom from fear.  You don't have the right to tell redefine who I am and who I am attracted to without my consent. And if you call me a transphobe or bigot for saying that, with the power of the lobby behind you, you are proving exactly why many natal women should be frightened of you.

Anonymous 03 July 20 17:30

Sweet Anonymous of 03 July 20 16:59. I'm not furious I just choose to fund a campaign group doing excellent work combating the dangerous lies and venom spewed by the likes of the LGB Alliance and its fans. So because of RoF I am going to be a few hundred quid lighter tonight - again. Worth every penny judging from the bile Stonewall seem to be attracting above.

Anonymous 03 July 20 17:39

Anonymous 03 July 20 16:49

Every time RoF publishes this kind of unbalanced transphobic bigoted drivel”

You may disagree with Ms Bailey’s views, but it rather plays into the image of your side painted by your ideological opponents when you accuse news outlets themselves of being ‘transphobic’ and ‘bigoted’ even for reporting on those views. 

Stonewall gave its response. It’s hardly the media’s fault if Stonewall declines to rebut Ms Bailey’s slant, is it?

As far as her views have been reported, I am interested to know how you think she misrepresented the Stonewall policy, or feminists’ concerns about it. If your answer could avoid the words transphobe, bigot, or hate that would also be very refreshing. 

Anonymous 03 July 20 17:39

@Anon 17:18:  If you can't come up with a solution that doesn't prioritise the rights of the very vulnerable section of our society with another equally vulnerable section of our society, then your leaf is beginning to look very figgy too.

There is nothing about Gender Critical Lawyer's analysis that makes any assumption that women don't commit violence either btw.

Viewpoint 03 July 20 17:42

The long history of what a woman is that of a gender created by patriarchal societies primarily for reproduction, and suffering physical and economic oppression as the “weaker sex” accordingly. 
 

We were making progress towards equality, where females didn’t have to act a certain way which defined them as women but were free to live and work whichever way suited their character as individuals.

 

But where are TRAs taking us - a new type of oppression and powerlessness - innate gender - where women can no longer organise politically as a separate sex identified group - can’t even compete against each other in sport as physical equals.
 

It’s madness, imo - and a type of fundamental disregard and hostility towards women the Taliban would be proud of!

Anon 03 July 20 17:45

Anon 03 July 20 17:29 wow! I am used to this type of 'show me the proof' argument by men against women's experiences. How does it feel protecting cis women whilst using misogynistic arguments? 

This whole who you should have sex with argument is silly though - am I a homophobe if as a cis women I only want to have sex with a man with male body? It's obviously 'no'! To say that that what trans activists say is like saying that all feminists hate men. 

 

Anon 03 July 20 17:56

@ 17:30 - well Allison Bailey raised £60k in a matter of hours, who knows what that total would have been had Crowdjustice not intervened .  This has just served to strengthen the resolve of those of us who support her.

Some questions for you, which I doubt you will answer (although go on, prove me wrong - and no cop out about "educating" myself thanks):

- What is a "woman"?

- Specifically what was hateful and/or incorrect about what Allison Bailey said? 

- What exactly are the "dangerous lies and venom" coming from LGB Alliance?

- Should a lesbian have to sleep with a trans woman who has retained their male genitalia?  And why don't we see gay men being told they are transphobic if they don't want to sleep with a trans man who has retained female genitalia?

And lies, damned lies and statistics - I don't see gender critical women physically attacking trans women and their allies, or telling them to die in a grease fire, or calling them hateful slang words for the female genitals, or threatening them with violence, and/or threatening to rape them with lady dicks (newsflash - no such thing, only men have them).  But you won't respond to that, will you, BECAUSE THERE IS NO RATIONAL ANSWER.  I expect you will come back with the hyperbolic "you are literally killing trans women/us" - no we are not, I refer you to the previous statements that it is not women carrying out violent acts, it is men, for whom we are not responsible. 

Anonymous TERF 03 July 20 17:56

Anon 03 July 20 @ 12:03 and anyone else who thinks all toilets, changing rooms, sports teams etc should be unisex, what this means in reality is that women's spaces become unisex while men's are left to the men.  The whole push for unisex spaces is driven by men and transwomen (ie men) who have decided that women should not be allowed the safety and dignity afforded by single sex spaces.

Fortunately the general public no more believe that a transwoman is a woman, or a transman a man, than they do that seahorses are horses, and will push back at attempts to enforce Stonewall ideology.    

Anonymous 03 July 20 17:56

@17:45 - you might want to actually look up what some of the more radical trans lobby are saying.  Suggesting you are a transphobe if you say that being a lesbian means you don't aren't attracted to people with penises is really the mildest thing they are claiming.

ShootyMcShootyface 03 July 20 18:11

Anonymous

On a side note, I am suing Mila Kunis for not being attracted to me.

--------------------------------------

Can you let us know how you get on with that?

I think you'll lose on the Floodgates argument alone, but would happily chuck you some £££ for a crowdfund.

Anon 03 July 20 18:56

There really is no way some of you will listen to the other side's concerns. All movements have extremists and to only address them is to cling to your own extremism ('trans want lebians to have sex with male bodies' 'cis women are killing us'). There are concerns on boths sides - it's plainly true so talk about that. 

Unisex toilets are common in other parts of the world; unisex changing rooms are in my local swimming pool; abusers come in all genders; show me the proof demands - google it; cis/terf is offensive by ppl who misgender (oh, the irony) - OMFG!

I have no idea if it's true but chance are most of the above comments are by women - ripping each other apart - we no longer need misogynists doing it for us. 

 

Anonymous 03 July 20 19:08

When did RoF get so TERFy? 
 

The “outrage” in some of these comments by sudden gender scientists and “gender critical” types emerging from the woodwork, get back to your billables. 

boohoo 03 July 20 19:25

that face when the left are now denigrating black lesbians. such tolerant people.

Chester 03 July 20 19:33

She probably votes left. This is the kind of insanity they vote for. No sympathy.

Anon 03 July 20 20:47

Scientific research suggests (ie looking thumbs up and thumbs down) it seems that lawyers are more pro terf than pro trans. 

Mark Ball 03 July 20 21:10

Hopefully she'll get another fundraiser up and we can chuck her a few quid. I never actually got round to donating because it was taken down before I even had chance to find my credit card.

Bit sick of the free speech and reality deniers at the moment.

Petal 03 July 20 22:41

It's been said further up the post that the term 'TERF' is considered offensive by many women and yet still it is used further down the thread. How would those using the term feel if the same posters referred to transwomen as men? 

Another Anon Comment 04 July 20 07:03

As lawyers, acknowledging conflicts of rights and resolving them fairly should be second nature to us. We should all be asking questions if trans ideology tries to prevent people asserting their rights or any discussion or acknowledgment of conflicting rights. It is one thing to go along with something that's not true in order not to hurt people's feelings in a social situation out of politeness, but quite another to deny material reality and the competing rights of another vulnerable group. What is the point of being lawyers if we cannot or will not speak up now and advocate for the rights of 50% of the population? For evil to succeed, it is only necessary for good men (and women) to do nothing.

hey, Nonny Mouse! 04 July 20 08:10

So is it sex discrimination if a woman doesn’t want to have a relationship with a man? 
 

I genuinely find this debate fascinating and completely befuddling. 
 

happily they are issues that we don’t need to consider at my regional bronze medallion last firm. 

Anonymous 04 July 20 10:53

@18:56: you are right that some on the more radical sides of the debate will never listen to each other. But you are also mis-characterising one of the issues.

No-one on this thread has said that "trans want lesbians to have sex with male bodies". The point of debate is that Stonewall and the radical trans lobby have told lesbians that bring lesbian no longer means you are attracted to natal women but also to natal men, still in possession of their male genitalia, who have identified as women. They did this without consulting the lesbian community and without thought as to the flow on consequences (or more alarmingly this may have been a deliberate circumvention).

Then they have labelled anyone who objects to this as transphobic, and the radical trans lobby (who absolutely does not represent all transfolk) have threatened lesbians and other women with violence for disagreeing.

This is not just a case of two diametrically opposed camps disagreeing with each other. This is the subversion of the rights of one group by the other coupled with systematic suppression.

If you don't find that terrifying, then you aren't paying attention.

AbsurdinessBrown 04 July 20 11:20

*sips tea quietly and gazes out window*

Anonymous 04 July 20 11:26

And not just violence. In many cases sexual violence - precisely the thing that some women are concerned about.

Many in the radical trans lobby (and those who are supporting them without educating themselves about the whole picture) will say "Women are using rare marginal cases to tar a whole community". You just have to look at the plethora of threats by the radical lot to rape women with their "ladypenis' to see this isn't a marginal/theoretical concern.

Tom Wooller 04 July 20 11:59

Law firms need to leave Stonewall asap

Management have left this to their LGBT groups who are too captured or gutless to speak up

Stonewall has betrayed 25 years of gay rights activism.  Shames lesbians for being gay. Misrepresents equality law.  Campaigns to destroy women’s sports and spaces. Has appalling ‘guidance’ for schools targeting autistic kids. And on and on

hawthorn 04 July 20 12:06

muh

muuuh

muuuuuuuuh

MUH STONEWALL!!!

hawthorn 04 July 20 12:06

muh

muuuh

muuuuuuuuh

MUH STONEWALL!!!

Anonymous 04 July 20 13:47

I am a straight man and I don’t fancy Allison Bailey (we’ve met) and she doesn’t fancy me.  Is that allowed?

Why? 05 July 20 00:50

As a gay man, I've never understood why or how the Ls, Gs, Bs, and Ts got lumped together. No experience is the same here and to pretend otherwise is dangerous. I have a great deal more in common with heterosexual men than I ever could with transgender folk, or indeed lesbians for that matter. The same would be true from their perspective towards me. This is bananas.

***TRUMP 2020*** 05 July 20 16:14

Every sane person stands with Allison. 

#makegreatbritaingreatagain

SecularJurist 05 July 20 20:44

There appears to be obfuscation and perhaps some manipulation as to the meaning of gender and sex, which confuses the issue.

Is there a difference between sex and gender? The issue needs to be clarified.Stonewall seems to be contributing to the issue with smoke and mirrors.

At birth, one has a gender. M or F. Or is it sex? Then, during one's lifetime, one's sex/gender is M, F or T. T is either transexual/transgender, and the identifying sex/gender is different from that of birth.

Perhaps there needs to be a change in domestic law, or even by treaty, that recognises M/F at birth, and M,F and T during one's lifetime.

Presumably, not every transexual/gender  wants to fully transition, so will possess the genitalia they had at birth? How would they de classified?

There needs to be legal clarity, otherwise this debate will go on and on.

Stonewall has, however, put the frighteners on a leading Chambers. The legal profession is supposed to be leaders of social and legal progress. Being cowed by pressure groups and charities (even though Stonewall has many legitimate causes) is very scary.

JK Rowling is being turned into a pariah, and now a barrister risks being suspended. It it doubtful  if the Bar Code covers such an issue as the instant one. To potentially appear before the BSB (let alone a Chambers committee) on the say so of Stonewall would be very chilling and redolent of the Soviet Union, where denunciation was tantamount to instant guilt.Ms Bailey has been effectively subjected to a show trial.

While I personally am in favour of LGBT rights and am socially liberal, I submit that things have taken a sinister turn.

Dasvidaniya. 

 

Matt F 06 July 20 07:29

I can't understand why there is so much anger in the lesbian community about trans people identifying as women.  Likewise, there is a significant transphobic element in the lesbian community who also think that female to male transitioning is corrupting lesbians who should just remain as the more "butch" women.  Who are you to sit here are say you understand what gender dysmorphia feels like for a trans person? How are you more correct than the psychologists and psychiatrists who have confirmed that people legitimately know they have been born with the wrong sexual organs?  What real difference does it make to your life to welcome people who have been discriminated against for being born who they are? There is a lot more wrong with you than them. 

Anonymous 06 July 20 08:17

Matty F. If you still genuinely ‘can’t understand’ why women have issues with males identifying as women, you must be either very hard of thinking or completely lacking in empathy. I’m no expert but it’s pretty clear by now what the issues are. Even if you disagree, you should be able to grasp that there is a conflict here.
I’m not convinced your attempt to hand wave this away by saying there is something wrong with lesbians is wise or reflects well on you, either. 

Matt F 06 July 20 08:58

Anonymous, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with lesbians or lesbianism. I am saying that there is something wrong where people dismiss other people's rights merely for being born a certain way.  It's hypocritical. 

Anonymous 06 July 20 10:28

Indeed Matt.  Given that's exactly what certain transactivists and Stonewall are doing to women, and going out of their way to suppress discussion to boot, it's really hypocritical.

I too made an initial knee-jerk reaction to women's concerns about this because I was used to Stonewall being the good guys and I didn't properly inform myself about what was being said. You seem like a reasonable chap, so try reading into it a bit more and you'll see what's going on.

Anonymous 06 July 20 10:36

Matt F, who are some transfolk to tell me what "feeling like a woman" feels like?  Or to tell me that I am trans because I don't like pretty pink dresses?  Or to redefine what my sexuality means?  And yes, all of these things are happening - not by all transfolk, but certainly by the aggressive new lobby.

You appear to be the one with a problem with hypocrisy.  And a real misunderstand of what the "real difference" to the lives of many women this is making.

Yes, I am trans. 06 July 20 12:27

Please watch these videos to see how the TERF movement work;   Julie Long is ghastly.   You call us the "trans lobby", well watch this rubbish.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUon9j1zJ_E&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RF4OHrBoCCw

When the concentration camps open and trans people are murdered in the UK, remember people like Julie Long and Julie Bindle put us there.   Then they will come for the LGB movement, then its bye bye Alison Bailey, and then anyone else who is seen as different. 

 

 

What happened... 06 July 20 12:46

What happened to the good ol' days when all you needed was some badly applied lipstick and a dodgy wig? Bring back the old transvestites, I say. They were far more agreeable. They knew they weren't women, we knew they weren't women. But we all happily participated in the illusion. No amount of law or surgery will ever change this perception. Big hands? Adam's apple? It's cool. Go nuts (pardon the pun), pretend to be woman. But don't claim to be a woman. Don't claim to need access to women's spaces. It's not as if men haven't taken enough away from women already.

Anonymous 06 July 20 13:19

@ Yes, I am trans - 12.27.

What blend of crazy did you stir into your hot water, milk, and sugar this morning?

Who's arguing for the reopening of concentration camps? As a gay Jew, this is doubly offensive. Equating Nazism with the debate on whether or not men dressed as women ought to have the right to be called women is at best deeply illinformed. 

Is it beyond your intellectual capacity to at least understand the other side's argument? Are you totally incapable of rationale thought?

Sit down, have a KitKat, and think this through.

Anonymous 06 July 20 14:11

God the transphobia in these comments - it's a wonder any of you manage to leave your front door considering how much fear you have over something you just don't understand and don't have the maturity to admit so. 

Matt F 06 July 20 14:25

Dear anonymous people who feel i need more education. I am a widely respected LGBT executive who knows more about this than most.  I have helped trans people transition in the workplace and i have realised that coming at this from a position of love and a willingness to learn is much better than coming from a position of hate and otherness. If you want people to accept our difference in sexuality then you need to understand that you may not understand something if you are not going through it yourself. I recognise that many women, particularly lesbians, have experienced unacceptable situations at the hands of straight men. However, this does not mean that you get to paint trans people as straight men with issues they need to resolve.  Honestly, it's not your call, much as it's not a straight woman's call to say that lesbians are really straight but just need some therapy. That's where the hypocrisy lies - you think people need to understand and accept your otherness while at the same time denying the possibility that gender and sex may not always be linked.

Anon 06 July 20 14:25

One of the oldest jokes in the book is:

”I’m a lesbian in a man’s body.”

Seem like the joke has become an indisputable truth to many. 

Anonymous 06 July 20 14:52

I'd happily admit to not being mature enough to deal with this stuff. But what a daunting prospect to have to deal with. I cope with it in the same way the vast majority of ordinary people do: laughter. Is this just not all terribly funny?

Clive is 6"3 and is equipped with a penis and (controversially) a considerable pair of testicles. If, without warning, Clive walked into the office and demanded to be called Claudette while wearing a pair of sassy, but ultimately inappropriate, kitten heels, what are we meant to make of this situation? 

Are we supposed to passively ignore the fact that Claudette looks like Jeff Capes in a miniskirt? That Claudette's voice is irrecoverably masculine? Are we comfortable with Claudette's alarmingly large penis in the ladies?

benji 06 July 20 15:03

I've managed to translate Matt's contribution:

MATT: "I am a widely respected LGBT executive who knows more about this than most."
TRANSLATION: I have a position that depends upon supporting this, and I'd advise you shut up for your own good. I have learned nothing about opposing viewpoints which contradict or complicate my position, except to the extent necessary for me to throw back emotive woowoo to silence them. My boasting that I am widely respected and know a lot sounds ridiculous. Please do not call me up on this.

MATT: "coming at this from a position of love and a willingness to learn is much better than coming from a position of hate and otherness
TRANSLATION: Of course that only applies to you, not me. You need to be kind and shut up. Women, embrace your discomfort.

MATT: "If you want people to accept our difference in sexuality then you need to understand that you may not understand something if you are not going through it yourself."
TRANSLATION: Even though knowing this is apparently part of my job, I think being trans is a sexuality. It is not, which is one of the reasons LGB people want to split off the T.

MATTY: "I recognise that many women, particularly lesbians, have experienced unacceptable situations at the hands of straight men. However, this does not mean that you get to paint trans people as straight men with issues they need to resolve."
TRANSLATION: If a man declares he is trans, he magically is no longer a danger to anyone as he is no longer capable of committing male violence, and if you disagree you are a bigot.

MATT: "Honestly, it's not your call,"
TRANSLATION: I don't care if you have concerns, just shut up.

MATT: "much as it's not a straight woman's call to say that lesbians are really straight but just need some therapy."
TRANSLATION: Even though feminists are not saying people can't be trans, and are only saying transwomen are not actually women, I shall misrepresent their position as conversion therapy. I shall claim that unless they accept that a transwoman is actually a member of the female sex - which would have a huge effect on that sex - they are doing the same as preventing a woman from being a lesbian - even though a woman being a lesbian affects no-one but herself. 'Conversion therapy' is an effective trigger for lots of good people, and may make them think they other side is evil if they don't read too closely. 

MATT: "you think people need to understand and accept your otherness while at the same time denying the possibility that gender and sex may not always be linked."
TRANSLATION: I think gender is so linked to sex that I believe that males who perform gender stereotypes typical of women must actually be women.

Disappointed 06 July 20 15:48

Comments threads on articles about transgender people are usually a swarming hive of the absolute worst people in society, but this takes the biscuit. I'm embarrassed to be a part of a profession with so many self-important, woefully-misinformed and profoundly bigoted people. I'm particularly perplexed by the rampant oversimplification that can be seen throughout the thread, given that you'd generally expect lawyers to be able to see things in more complex terms.

 

Thinking about what being transgender and thereby having to navigate so many obnoxious twerps must actually be like could make you weep.

@ Matt F 06 July 20 16:21

@ Matt F. 

Another person may describe you as being "widely respected", but to describe yourself in this way... it sort of tells you all that you need to know about a person without ever having met them. It's why I can picture your LinkedIn "accomplishments" and "awards" with perfect accuracy.

Anonymous 06 July 20 16:37

‘Disappointed‘, all you’ve done is call people who disagree with you bigots and the ‘absolute worst type of people’. You accuse them of over-simplifying, without explaining how, or why they are wrong. That’s not good enough I’m afraid. Attempts to silence legitimate concerns by smearing won’t work anymore. 

@ 16.37 06 July 20 17:49

@ 16.37.

It's cool. We just need "to be educated". Or indeed imprisoned if the education doesn't work out. Either way, the utopia will be realised. Men will dress as women and the transgender-shaped myth about the origin of the Stonewall movement can flourish.

Anonymous 06 July 20 18:12

I wanted to share my own experience.

Growing up, I only ever wanted to be Spider Man. After a few years, I told my parents that I wanted to be Spider Man. Dutifully, but with a heavy heart, they both agreed to call me Spider Man. They even bought me a Spider Man outfit. I was bullied for wanting to be Spider Man. At school, they laughed and told me that I'd never be Spider Man. But I persisted. I fought on. Eventually, after several highly invasive operations (I won't walk you through the process of gaining the ability to fire ejacul- I mean "web" from my palms) I became Spider Man. But then, on the eve of my tenth birthday, I decided that I'd had enough of being Spider Man. I'd realised that I was "all about the outfit" and decided to sue my parents for negligence.

Welcome to the future of lawsuits.

@ Anon 13.19 06 July 20 19:21

Glad you are offended. Now you know how trans people feel when idiots like you walk into this space and pronounce with no informed data except listening to group of gender critical lesbians, who have hate in their heart.   Trans rights have nothing to do with women's rights never have never will.   Trans people need to be protected from hate, bullying and online abuse.    All of which are here.    

Anonymous 06 July 20 21:56

Well, at least Disappointed hasn't threatened us with violence. That's a slight improvement on what has become a typical TRA response.

Anonymous 06 July 20 23:11

I'm not sure. I wouldn't mind a proper fight with one of these chaps. But I'd get to pick the location. Picture being chased across a cobbled street by a fella in a pair of outrageously vulgar heels, like a real-life Ray Cooney farce. It'd be the perfect comedy. 

I stand with Alison. This nonsense simply must stop.

Anonymous 06 July 20 23:21

Also, and with respect to an earlier comment, who has the "right to be accepted"? Are overtly gay men "accepted"? Are overweight women "accepted"? Are ginger people "accepted"? Are Southerners in the North "accepted"? We spend our lives - either consciously or unconsciously - trying to work this shit out. Everybody has some form of ailment, real or imagined. Societally, we have made such enormous progress. But it's not meant to easy. To demand universal acceptance is to demand to the impossible.

Anonymous 06 July 20 23:21

Heh @ 19:21. Is transplaining the new iteration of mansplaining?

Anonymous 06 July 20 23:34

Sorry, you're right 19:21. I didn't realise that threats to rape were said out of love. Silly old hateful me. 

Anonymous 06 July 20 23:40

What's horrifies me is if I overlay this argument on my own experience.

If I grew up now, rather than in the 90s, there's a strong possibility that I'd have been sent to that awful Mermaid outfit.

Not content with the idea that I might just be gay, I'd likely have been encouraged to think more deeply about my gender. At that age, I almost certainly would have embraced the idea that I was a girl trapped in a boy's body. Then, after several more meetings, my hormone therapy would have started... and so the story continues.

I'm now in my 20s. I'm a gay man and more than happy to be so. I feel blessed to have been born when I was. How many of these kids are being afforded the right of amount of time to work through these challenges properly? How many trans men and women today now despise the bodies they possess?

Apart from the demonisation of lesbians, this is the reason why I personally reject this ideology. It's the easy way out for parents: "he/she isn't gay, they're trapped in the wrong body" and it provides the means by which social engineers get to perform their experiments.

Anonymous 07 July 20 08:51

What a storm in a teacup. She's free to exercise her strong views, but trans people are also free to vehemently disagree. This whole "men will use a trans identity as a cloak to rape women" thing is utter tripe though. To be honest, it must be difficult to be trans both ways. A bit more understanding and compassion and a little less condemnation might take us a bit further.

Anon 07 July 20 09:48

I must be missing the point here, why should trans people have the right to invade women's safe spaces. I wouldn't like them in any changing rooms etc that my female relatives are in. This could open the door for real sex pests. Also who has the right to tell anyone who they should fancy, get on with? I thought we had freedom of choice. I have no malice against anyone be it creed, colour , persuasion etc, but I do object at being told what to do, think, or openly oppose a side otherwise if not I am a bigot, racist etc.

Anonymous 07 July 20 21:02

So true @8:51. Jessica Yaniv and its ilk are just figments of those hateful lesbians' imagination. And it's ok that the TRAs routinely threaten rape to women, because it's the women who are hateful.

And, of course, it's only about concerns about rape. The idea that there are any other concerning issues here is utter tripe. If those uncompassionate women weren't so hateful, there wouldn't be any problem here.

Anonymous 07 July 20 21:07

But she's not free to exercise her views, is she? There is an attempt to intimidate her by destroying her livelihood, and to shut her down. That's the point.

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