Because if you believe in that sort of thing then you consider that god himself literally gave you this bit of land in the eastern med, it is your divine destiny to live on it and to choose to do otherwise is basically throwing god’s gift back in his face and abandoning your people.
The fairest thing to do would have been to resettle the Germans out of a couple of German provinces and make that a homeland for European Jews - perhaps they might have liked Bavaria.
You’ve even had people give you genuine answers. Do they have to give the camper van back btw? Fair wear and tear excepted ofc. Must be in a bit of a state by now.
Apparently the Patagonia thing is yet another far right conspiracy theory that circulated as fact and lodged in brains as true. A scare story by the Junta. Please disregard.
there was some argument on a ROF News thread where someone was arguing that modern Israeli Jews should be considered equally “indigenous” to that region as palestinian arabs
that’s a little questionable on a factual level isn’t it? Given that many Israelis are of fairly recent European descent, That someone whose family moved to the region in the mid 20th century after having lived in Europe for centuries should be considered as indigenous as someone whose family have lived in the region continuously for as far back as can be traced. This is not a point against Israel’s right to exist or defend itself FVCKING OBVIOUSLY before the usual suspects start. But it does go to why the Palestinians feel colonised, as well as being a straight comment on the meaning of the word “indigenous”.
Canada would have been interesting as part of the Canadian founding mythos is that it is a ‘multicultural’ society which is why French in Quebec is ‘equal’ to English in the other provinces. To have a Hebrew province with a Jewish identity should be possible in theory. Obviously it’s all a total load of crap but that his what the Canadians pretend to believe about their country.
fook me, Madagascar or Zanzibar? That would have really calmed things down wouldn't it? Can only imagine the 'coloniser' rhetoric that would have provoked..
As for being indigenous or not. Most Ashkenazi Jews have significant amounts of DNA which traces back to Israel or surrounding areas. There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. Also, fairly fundamentally, the significant majority of Jews in Israel are Sephardic or Mizrahi rather than Ashkenazi - their origins are North Africa/Middle East.
All this rather begs the question of what the actual Jewish zionists wanted. You can set up 'Israel' wherever you like, doesn't mean anyone's ever going to go there. Similarly you can blame the Balfour declaration or whatever for Israel/Palestine, but there's nothing to say the same people wouldn't have gone there anyway, with the same ultimate result just with a different timeline.
I think this trope that Israel was 'created' by the West is largely a fallacy, and obscures the reality that Israel was created by Jewish Zionists, the world basically accepting in 1948 a fait accompli
My understanding (see my other thread) was that the area was under a UN mandate so the UN (or was it the LoN then?) had a perfect right to do what they did.
"I think this trope that Israel was 'created' by the West is largely a fallacy, and obscures the reality that Israel was created by Jewish Zionists, the world basically accepting in 1948 a fait accompli "
Yes I always thought that.
It's essentially blaming Britain for their anti-Semitism which is easier than just admitting they are responsible for their beliefs
Britain was trying to stop Jewish emigration to avoid upsetting the Arab interests. Israel was in part created because that caused global opprobrium, especially after several hundred Jewish refugees died when their ship sank, having been refused port entry.
My understanding (see my other thread) was that the area was under a UN mandate so the UN (or was it the LoN then?) had a perfect right to do what they did.
Yes, but my point is that they did so because there was a virtual war going on between elements of the increasing numbers of Jewish settlers and elements of the resident Arab majority. It wasn't like the UN said to themselves "Hey I know, lets create Israel", it was forced on them by circumstances. If they hadn't done what they did then the Jews would just have kept on coming and you would have got Israel eventually in some other form and circumstances
A lot of issues in the modern world stem from our imperial entanglements. See Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, some parts of Africa, and so on and so forth.
I think there would always have been a core of Jews who were adamant that the homeland should be in Israel, quite understandably given the history. But for the 50 years before the Holocaust there were a myriad of arguments within the community as to whether a homeland was needed and if so, where it should be. In retrospect had there been a push for Canada in the early 20th century (which then kept its borders open to Jews through the 1930s) then one can quite imagine how an alternative, 'imperfect but acceptable' homeland could have emerged there.
After the Holocaust all bets were off. A vast number of misplaced Jews around a disintegrated Europe, with British Palestine the obvious destination given the history and the enduring Jewish presence.
Yeah indeed you gotta be pragmatic. If the motherland thing is overriding you then have to commit to an overt plan to displace the resident population and everything that flows from that.
In retrospect had there been a push for Canada in the early 20th century (which then kept its borders open to Jews through the 1930s) then one can quite imagine how an alternative, 'imperfect but acceptable' homeland could have emerged there.
Quite possibly, given that the vast majority of Jews during the 1880s-1930's period emigrated to the US anyway. However given that they had that option, the ones that went to Palestine in that period probably would still have gone there, and while there might not have been the same pressure after WW2 because of a North American alternative, I think that just would have slowed, not stopped, Jewish immigration to the area. You would probably just have ended up eventually with two Jewish states rather than one.
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Because the OT was invented before the North American landmass was invented.
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I think there was serious talk of Zanzibar at one point....
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And because of the large land purchases of areas of the ottoman empire by Jewish people between 1900-1930
And because of the general history of the Jewish people, as I understand it
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like tough tho
guys, u just had a holocaust do u want a nice big bit of land with a #naepsychos rule? here, behold the moose and nice mountains
history couldve been so different
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And yet you have the vote.
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cookie
stop pretending that even you believe you are cleverer than me
u don't
look in a mirror
look in it
right in your own eyes
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Was it Zanzibar or Madagascar? There was certainly some talk (beginning of the 20th c? Post WW2) about somewhere like that.
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Canada was the answer
the global community fluffed it
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Patagonia was offered too right?
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wait, was it? didn't loads of Nazis go to Argentina? I can see why they'd be against this.
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Something like that rings a bell, Royalty.
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ah it could have ben madagascar Crypto I think you are right.
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Because if you believe in that sort of thing then you consider that god himself literally gave you this bit of land in the eastern med, it is your divine destiny to live on it and to choose to do otherwise is basically throwing god’s gift back in his face and abandoning your people.
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"guys, u just had a holocaust do u want a nice big bit of land with a #naepsychos rule? "
Possibly a little over simplification of matters
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Canada is rife with antisemitism too . Its nearly as bad as the UK.
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I thought Madagascar was a proposed Nazi solution to the Jewish problem?
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Because the then British Empire had a Palestine problem they needed to pass off to someone else
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what strutter said - they all want the special bit.
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The fairest thing to do would have been to resettle the Germans out of a couple of German provinces and make that a homeland for European Jews - perhaps they might have liked Bavaria.
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So much clever
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I don't think I am particularly clever faod.
I think you are too dumb to carry off you aloof schtick.
That is all.
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Pretty sure those talking about Madagascar are getting confused with the Nazis' pre-final solution plan. Yikes.
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I too suspect it was a British palming off impetus. Should've gone with the Canada thing.
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You’ve even had people give you genuine answers. Do they have to give the camper van back btw? Fair wear and tear excepted ofc. Must be in a bit of a state by now.
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state
Not one moose.
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you are right threeps, I have got the whole thing muddled up
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Yeah it seems I got mixed up too.
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A Jewish Autonomous Oblast was set up in the far east in the USSR and still exists in Russia.
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That doesn't sound as fun as Canada
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Apparently the Patagonia thing is yet another far right conspiracy theory that circulated as fact and lodged in brains as true. A scare story by the Junta. Please disregard.
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Bazza only about 1.5k Jews live there ffs
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bit cold?
there was some argument on a ROF News thread where someone was arguing that modern Israeli Jews should be considered equally “indigenous” to that region as palestinian arabs
that’s a little questionable on a factual level isn’t it? Given that many Israelis are of fairly recent European descent, That someone whose family moved to the region in the mid 20th century after having lived in Europe for centuries should be considered as indigenous as someone whose family have lived in the region continuously for as far back as can be traced. This is not a point against Israel’s right to exist or defend itself FVCKING OBVIOUSLY before the usual suspects start. But it does go to why the Palestinians feel colonised, as well as being a straight comment on the meaning of the word “indigenous”.
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maybe we need a thread for people's old usernames. I didn't know bertha was cookie. cookie doesn't mean anything to me but it might to someone
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Canada would have been interesting as part of the Canadian founding mythos is that it is a ‘multicultural’ society which is why French in Quebec is ‘equal’ to English in the other provinces. To have a Hebrew province with a Jewish identity should be possible in theory. Obviously it’s all a total load of crap but that his what the Canadians pretend to believe about their country.
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fook me, Madagascar or Zanzibar? That would have really calmed things down wouldn't it? Can only imagine the 'coloniser' rhetoric that would have provoked..
As for being indigenous or not. Most Ashkenazi Jews have significant amounts of DNA which traces back to Israel or surrounding areas. There has been a continuous Jewish presence in Israel for thousands of years. Also, fairly fundamentally, the significant majority of Jews in Israel are Sephardic or Mizrahi rather than Ashkenazi - their origins are North Africa/Middle East.
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All that said, had Canada been a serious option in the mid-20th century I can see a lot of advantages..
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if the jewish people had had their own church of the latter day saints who'd said ontario was the promised land then maybe
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What wilf said.
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Argentina was apparently the alternative suggested. Ironic given the number of Nazis who fled there.
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All this rather begs the question of what the actual Jewish zionists wanted. You can set up 'Israel' wherever you like, doesn't mean anyone's ever going to go there. Similarly you can blame the Balfour declaration or whatever for Israel/Palestine, but there's nothing to say the same people wouldn't have gone there anyway, with the same ultimate result just with a different timeline.
I think this trope that Israel was 'created' by the West is largely a fallacy, and obscures the reality that Israel was created by Jewish Zionists, the world basically accepting in 1948 a fait accompli
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That’s interesting, Warren.
My understanding (see my other thread) was that the area was under a UN mandate so the UN (or was it the LoN then?) had a perfect right to do what they did.
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"I think this trope that Israel was 'created' by the West is largely a fallacy, and obscures the reality that Israel was created by Jewish Zionists, the world basically accepting in 1948 a fait accompli "
Yes I always thought that.
It's essentially blaming Britain for their anti-Semitism which is easier than just admitting they are responsible for their beliefs
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Britain was trying to stop Jewish emigration to avoid upsetting the Arab interests. Israel was in part created because that caused global opprobrium, especially after several hundred Jewish refugees died when their ship sank, having been refused port entry.
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Yes, but my point is that they did so because there was a virtual war going on between elements of the increasing numbers of Jewish settlers and elements of the resident Arab majority. It wasn't like the UN said to themselves "Hey I know, lets create Israel", it was forced on them by circumstances. If they hadn't done what they did then the Jews would just have kept on coming and you would have got Israel eventually in some other form and circumstances
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A lot of issues in the modern world stem from our imperial entanglements. See Israel/Palestine, India/Pakistan, some parts of Africa, and so on and so forth.
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I think there would always have been a core of Jews who were adamant that the homeland should be in Israel, quite understandably given the history. But for the 50 years before the Holocaust there were a myriad of arguments within the community as to whether a homeland was needed and if so, where it should be. In retrospect had there been a push for Canada in the early 20th century (which then kept its borders open to Jews through the 1930s) then one can quite imagine how an alternative, 'imperfect but acceptable' homeland could have emerged there.
After the Holocaust all bets were off. A vast number of misplaced Jews around a disintegrated Europe, with British Palestine the obvious destination given the history and the enduring Jewish presence.
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Yeah indeed you gotta be pragmatic. If the motherland thing is overriding you then have to commit to an overt plan to displace the resident population and everything that flows from that.
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Carve-ups after a war always lead to trouble - people want self-determination.
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Thanks Warren that’s something I didn’t know and gives some more context.
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Quite possibly, given that the vast majority of Jews during the 1880s-1930's period emigrated to the US anyway. However given that they had that option, the ones that went to Palestine in that period probably would still have gone there, and while there might not have been the same pressure after WW2 because of a North American alternative, I think that just would have slowed, not stopped, Jewish immigration to the area. You would probably just have ended up eventually with two Jewish states rather than one.
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