Add it to the list of invented panics that the hard right has dreamed up to terrify conservatives. The Venn diagram of climate change deniers/anti-vaxxers/small boats!!!! Transes!!! melts is basically a circle.
The tories are doing irreparable harm to this country and must be booted out.
Yes laz but only insofar as he's reviewing how he can actually implement an "ultra low" emissions zone instead of the complete nonsense we have currently where a 4l diesel Range Rover counts as "ultra low".
- ppl were encouraged to buy diesel until about 5 yrs ago when suddenly it was announced that you’d get fleeced for having a diesel
- all the building I see along London’s main arterial roads, eg. The A12 where I see 4 lanes of permanent traffic jam stuck between new build tower blocks and several fairly newly built schools. Yes, schools. It’s mental.
Poor people and local authorities getting the dregs of the living space.
100% what pancakes said. This is the conservatives spazzing out at their own policies and somehow some people (I mean not enough people to even vaguely impact the 400+ seat Labour megamadge that’s coming at the Jenny L, but) actually believing it’s conservatives v Labour. Labour actual announced policy is no more aggressive on climate and environment than current government policy.
I drive a diesel because the state said that was the best eco thing to do and now the state has changed its mind. I am three strides away from being outside my outer London borough (but sadly cannot simply park over the boundary) so my 2500 miles a year will cost me £4500 a year of ULEZ. If people vote out Khan and vote in the Tories at the next election outer London ulez will go. No one doubts that Boris J brought in these ulez plans - he is as inner London white male etc as they come, identikit with Stamer really.
Also many of us don't mind if humans die out a bit sooner - we were only ever going to be on the planet for a short period so might as well go out with a bang.
Also many of us don't mind if humans die out a bit sooner - we were only ever going to be on the planet for a short period so might as well go out with a bang.
Isn’t this more about particulate pollution not global warming. Kids living near roads.
Presumably Lydia you’re happy for your grandchildren to die early and in penury? Or are white middle class people able to buy themselves out of armageddon?
@lydia If people like you are using their dirty diesels 360 days a year, it's clearly time for some policy discouraging the use of these pollution factories, or at least tax them a bit to pay for the detrimental effects on the health of the people who's neighbourhoods they're polluting.
All new personal diesel cars sold since September 2015 are ULEZ-compliant. Many older ones are so too. After more than 8 years of daily use, it may be time for replacement anyway. Just use the 2k scrappage scheme and help to improve your health and that of your family and neighbours. Or stop complaining and pay the ULEZ fee.
Why do people think they should have the right to indefinitely continue harming their neighbours' health?
A huge percentage of net-zero zealots and car-haters live in their privalaged urban bubble (mainly in London), where public transport is widespread, timely, cheap and fast.
They are so blinkered, they have no idea how the rest of the country lives.
The joke about speed limits and air quality in London, which after all is a large part of this, is that the police are responsible for enforcing speed limits on side roads, where people actually live, but as they have no cash you have the absurd situation of 20mph limits all over main roads enforced by TfL with cameras, while people drive as fast as they like on side streets, hammering over speed bumps - which knackers water mains - and generally being anti social. And breathe.
Sounds good. For most of us outside London the car is essential and we don’t want to have higher costs just to live our lives.
Some guy has recently started on my team who used to work in London. He can’t even drive and says no Drs in London drive to work. That’s the total opposite of here where I’d say 90% commute by car to the hospitals.
Most of London is solid Labour now anyway (thanks to immigration) so there are no votes to loose.
@minkie Her (fake?) story doesn't say she drives 2500 miles per year. That would only be 7 a day when driving 360 days a year. I think she implies that she only drives outside the ULEZ area, but needs to drive 3.5 miles to get there.
Also, no one ever bought a diesel for driving just 2500 miles a year.
@risky You don't need a new Tesla to be ULEZ compliant. Just buy a second-hand 7 year old diesel, if you insist on burning oil and polluting the air your kids breath. Demand will be low, so prices too.
but nb also 8 year old diesel engines are not very polluting. Diesel tech was pretty advanced 8yrs ago and, given the move against diesels generally (which is not entirely sensible) hasn’t advanced that much since. ULEZ is mostly an exercise in optics tbh
A huge percentage of net-zero zealots and car-haters live in their privalaged urban bubble (mainly in London), where public transport is widespread, timely, cheap and fast.
They are so blinkered, they have no idea how the rest of the country lives.
Agreed - time to massively boost levels of public transport infrastructure spending outside London.
I was one of the many people who purchased a diesel when we were told they were environmentally friendly.
There is nothing wrong with the car and no need for me to change it. It is well maintained, drives well and could easily last me for another 5 years without causing major issues.
I live in Berks just outside the M25 and will be caught by this if I have the temerity to drive into a London borough from the end of August. My intent is, where possible, to stop doing this. If I absolutely have to for work reasons, I will look to pass the cost on to the client.
The whole thing is pointless theatre, mention nothing of the fact there are people driving around central London in 4L Range Rovers and 6L supercars that are, apparently, ULEZ exempt.
The hypocrisy and virtue signalling is off the scale. Most Roffers seem to have a long-haul summer and winter break, with Easter and October half term European City breaks thrown in.
Chimp I’m not convinced. There’s nothing aspirational about getting a bus. Even our seccies drive in. Are you really going to want to get a bus after a long day (10 pm finish?) or a night? If you’re a family of 4 how will you do the shopping?
I don’t think I’m alone in seeing the car as part of my personal freedom. I can chose when to go and the route. I’m lucky that I can afford to pay for that but I can’t see many people being keen to give it up in favour of busses.
@ Calvin's dad - I will probably change my behaviour and not use businesses inside the ULEZ area. Conversely other businesses outside the ULEZ area will get my custom.
I will look to avoid routes that involve going through the area, thus generating traffic and pollution in areas just outside the zone.
I will probably start turning down or seeking to avoid work at Courts that are not easy to access by public transport, thus reducing the availability of a publicly funded lawyer to the people who need it most (generally the poorest and most vulnerable in society).
Considering the outlay of expanding the scheme I remember seeing a report that it will only work if people keep driving in and they recover a large % of the fines. It's political theatre.
Agree with the sentiment above that it's ludicrous that this is based on Euro whatever BS and not the actual emissions from the car in any way so your fancy new Range Rovers etc are exempt while poor old 10 year old diesel supermini isn't
I guess in London you don't really need a car to get into and around the city , however it must be remembered that outside London a car is more or less essential still.
When a chinny phones "do you drive and have a car" is often one of the first questions they will ask as to not have one massively limits options for work
Once car ownership becomes general it becomes obligatory and that's whats happened for most of the UK
So, the London air will be kept clean, you will use (a bit) more public transport than before, and by the time you replace your car you will probably consider picking one that is ULEZ-compliant.
A huge percentage of net-zero zealots and car-haters live in their privalaged urban bubble (mainly in London), where public transport is widespread, timely, cheap and fast.
Eh, yes, because we voted for politicians (Livingstone, Khan) who put money into public transport and campaigned for public transport improvements. The fact that mondeo man in whatever part of England he lives in doesn't have that public transport is his own fault. What is wrong with people in England who cannot understand that voting has consequences (see also voting Tory).
Mayor Khan is driven around London in a chauffeur driven Chelsea tractor.
I've seen Khan on the tube as have others. At least he's not flying around in a helicopter like Sunak.
There’s nothing aspirational about getting a bus. Even our seccies drive in. Are you really going to want to get a bus after a long day (10 pm finish?) or a night?
Some of us manage that. Maybe if doctors did that we wouldn't read the stories in newspapers of doctors killing people on the roads after working 24 hour shifts.
If you’re a family of 4 how will you do the shopping?
Family of four, never had a car. Get the bus, get bulky stuff delivered once a month. It's not difficult.
Outside London there probably wouldn't be a bus that would get you home . That's the issue. I remember a job I worked at where when we were too tired to drive they'd pay for a cab back. I then had to cycle back to the car and stick the bike in the boot as was the only way to get back there other than getting a train into London then out again .
The issue with transport for doctors after long shifts/night shifts is completely separate. Suffice to say that it’s not just a matter of “not wanting to” use public transport. Doctors kill themselves driving home as well as others
Massively disagree. The fact that public transport is poor outside London is not the fault of the people living there.
Is anything ever the fault of these people? They were "lied to" over Brexit, etc. They need to take responsibility for their political choices: who they vote for to Parliament, who they vote for to local councils, how their tax base is, etc. It's always someone else's fault isn't it: EU, immigrants, etc.?
It's now "victim-blaming" to tell people that they need to take responsibility for their electoral choices. Maybe we should just take the vote away from those in the north of England - or alternatively cut off the subsidy to them. Frankly, the more I think about it the better an idea it seems.
Eh? This issue is absolutely not the fault of “these people” (I am one). No idea what Brexit has to do with it. Again you display your instinctive contempt for British non-Londoners.
When people talk about a “London bubble” - you are who they mean. You don’t even bother to disguise the fact that you think the majority of the country barely qualify as human.
London having dense public transport when other places don't is nothing to do with voting for X and Y or the virtuousness or otherwise of its citizens, it's a simple natural consequence of a large number of people being concentrated into a very small geographical area all wanting to make similar journeys which forces a "peak car" scenario (where once too many people have cars in a small area the advantage of having one naturally vanishes and people stop buying them ) and the development of significant public transport networks .
See every other major city in the world for other examples of this
Chimp, stop the hyperbole. You just make yourself look ridiculous. What makes it so difficult for you to accept that people in the north of England make their electoral choices and need to take responsibility for those. As an outsider, yes, it seems that there is something deeply dysfunctional about a culture where "it's always someone else's fault". I grew up in Dublin in the 1980s and 90s with 15-20% unemployment and a massive heroin epidemic - the two sons in the next door neighbour family were both dead from heroin overdoses by the age of 30. People made difficult political and personal choices to improve things for themselves and the economy and society. It's perfectly possible for the north of England to do that, but not so long as they keep blaming everyone else rather than taking responsibility themselves.
@Lordgaga North of England has lots of relatively dense population areas: Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford, Sheffield, Leeds, etc. But it needs political pressure and management to get public transport to work. Andy Burnham (whom I rate very highly) is trying to do that. Others are as well.
Rob has proved himself to be a genuine urban fool.
The idea that swathes of England outside London have only themselves to blame for poor public transport is really too stupid to pick apart.
In the Chilterns where I live there few bus routes, and those that exist and they run only a few times a day. Modern life would be impossible without a car.
BTW - TFL has received massive subsidies over the decades from the Treasury.
Rob, you’re being too stupid to engage with. The idea that if people in “The north” just voted differently we would have great public transport is idiotic on its face.
BTW - TFL has received massive subsidies over the decades from the Treasury.
London subsidises the rest of UK, apart from perhaps SE and East of England. I've posted the stats here previously and am happy to post them again for slow learners.
If people want better bus services then they need to vote for politicians who will support better bus services. There are parts of rural continental Europe with similar population densities to the Chilterns and which have significant better bus services. Density is not the only factor.
There are parts of rural continental Europe with similar population densities to the Chilterns and which have significant better bus services. Density is not the only factor.
Er, no, neither is voting choice the only factor. London productivity is continually cited as the reason it should receive more and more investment - no surprise that it becomes more and more productive.
London productivity is continually cited as the reason it should receive more and more investment - no surprise that it becomes more and more productive.
How did the Republic of Ireland's economy go in 30 years from being poorer than north of England to being 2-3 times richer? How did Poland's economy go in 20 years from being 1/3 as rich as north of England to being richer? Could the fact that London is highly productive be a function of the fact that 65% of the population there is from ethnic minority and immigrant groups? The idea that London is in some sort of self-reinforcing upward spiral as regards relative productivity and the north of England is in some sort of self-reinforcing downward as regards relative productivity is nonsense. It's just another thing people tell themselves to avoid addressing reality.
The idea that London is in some sort of self-reinforcing upward spiral as regards relative productivity and the north of England is in some sort of self-reinforcing downward as regards relative productivity is nonsense.
Right…so your implication is that investment doesn’t affect productivity. Interesting stuff.
Heh the answer to both your questions rob is massive subsidies from the better off
But there is a massive subsidy to the north of England for generations. The amount of gov expenditure in north of England is over twice what is collected there in taxes. That subsidy is much bigger relative to GDP than any EU subsidies to Ireland or Poland.
A huge percentage of net-zero zealots and car-haters live in their privalaged urban bubble (mainly in London), where public transport is widespread, timely, cheap and fast.
so your implication is that investment doesn’t affect productivity
Why did businesses invest in Ireland and Poland and don't in the north of England? It's not because Ireland and Poland had particularly high productivity to begin with. It might be because kids in Ireland and Poland worked harder at school and were significantly better educated. Because those countries have a culture where education is valued and the north of England does not (see relative GCSE results for different English regions).
But there is a massive subsidy to the north of England for generations. The amount of gov expenditure in north of England is over twice what is collected there in taxes. That subsidy is much bigger relative to GDP than any EU subsidies to Ireland or Poland.
Perhaps Ireland and Poland are different in some important ways to the north of England? Maybe the fact that they have their own governments? Or do you think that there’s some kind of inherent quality to people living in the north of England that means we are incapable of benefiting from government investment? Out with it.
Rob doesn’t understand anywhere but London, where there is a network of superb public transport that could take you anywhere within the current ULEZ zone to probably within half a mile of your desired destination, with only at most a couple of changes.
My only bus route is about a miles walk away, and it goes simply from one largish town to another about 20 miles away. There are no interconnections on the route, apart from at each end, and it often stops at about 8pm.
If I wanted to go anywhere else locally, it would be impossible by public transport.
Or do you think that there’s some kind of inherent quality to people living in the north of England that means we are incapable of benefiting from government investment?
Quite the contrary. The London media class pities the north of England and thinks that nothing can be done with it beyond perhaps managed decline. I saw the Irish economy be turned around in the space of 15 years. I think the north of England could be really successful economically - it's got one of the densest urban areas in western Europe, many good universities (the average 18 year old in England moves north for university - not south), good housing stock, etc. I think there are some very deep cultural issues that hold it back a lot (just as there were in Ireland up to the 1990s) and of course also political issues (Westminster dependency etc.) I really admire Andy Burnham because he's not just about getting autonomy/money from Westminster (although that is part of it) but also about people in Greater Manchester taking responsibility for themselves and their own choices.
Because those countries have a culture where education is valued and the north of England does not
is not the same as saying
Ah, people in the north of England are thick. Got it.
I don't think that the reason that the average GCSE grade in the north of England is significant lower than in London is because of some inherent genetic quality. I think it is related to culture. And I think it can be changed. But it won't be changed by self-pity.
Yes, exactly - Andy Burnham is improving the local economy of greater Manchester because he has been able to get autonomy and money from Westminster and argue the case for Manchester as somewhere that deserves investment. You basically undid your own argument there.
No, you need to read better and stop trying to score points.
I really admire Andy Burnham because he's not just about getting autonomy/money from Westminster (although that is part of it) but also about people in Greater Manchester taking responsibility for themselves and their own choices.
Yes, I read that. It’s obviously not the main driver of Burnham’s success. It rather reads like you realised you were contradicting yourself and tacked that on.
Why do you think that the average GCSE grade in the north of England is significantly lower compared with London / SE or say Northern Ireland?
I think the reasons for educational underattainment are complex. I don’t think they resolve exactly to “culture” or “investment” but involve both. It’s worth noting that when the local economy is in the doldrums that will affect the local culture with regards to careers and education. If you don’t see success around you that will harm your level of aspiration. In any case, saying things like “we should remove the vote from northerners” doesn’t really marry with a serious concern for the thwarted potential of the north. Suspect you belatedly realised you were being a wally.
As a white working class northerner I find rob's stereotypes both deeply offensive and remarkably incorrect
And there it is, a post that confirms the stereotype: complain about being offended, claim that what's being said is incorrect, and yet not refuting a single statement that's been made.
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It’s good
someone is
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He flies not drives. Yet another try on from Work Experience
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Not blocking up the road with his car
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a review of the extension of ULEZ is very sensible
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Add it to the list of invented panics that the hard right has dreamed up to terrify conservatives. The Venn diagram of climate change deniers/anti-vaxxers/small boats!!!! Transes!!! melts is basically a circle.
The tories are doing irreparable harm to this country and must be booted out.
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Yes laz but only insofar as he's reviewing how he can actually implement an "ultra low" emissions zone instead of the complete nonsense we have currently where a 4l diesel Range Rover counts as "ultra low".
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It’s already part of the culture wars
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Man who takes wife's or taxpayers private jet everywhere decides normal people should be able to drive
Really is last chance saloon stuff from Tories and risky here
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U.K. wide ulez pls
Congestion tariff in outer Hebrides and Orkney - NOW
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What’s a bit shit is:
- ppl were encouraged to buy diesel until about 5 yrs ago when suddenly it was announced that you’d get fleeced for having a diesel
- all the building I see along London’s main arterial roads, eg. The A12 where I see 4 lanes of permanent traffic jam stuck between new build tower blocks and several fairly newly built schools. Yes, schools. It’s mental.
Poor people and local authorities getting the dregs of the living space.
im generally in favour of ulez faod
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As Clinton said ‘it’s the economy stupid’.
by next December many more will have been come off their low fixed rate mortgages and will be hit regardless of any stabilisation of the rises.
little rishi is flailing around for a wedge issue. He’s doomed.
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It’s literally all their policies. They are the government. They have been the government for 13 years.
If they want to stop the green stuff they can do it, tomorrow, because they are in charge and they implanted most of it to begin with.
British public discourse is demented.
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100% what pancakes said. This is the conservatives spazzing out at their own policies and somehow some people (I mean not enough people to even vaguely impact the 400+ seat Labour megamadge that’s coming at the Jenny L, but) actually believing it’s conservatives v Labour. Labour actual announced policy is no more aggressive on climate and environment than current government policy.
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https://twitter.com/otto_english/status/1685592368517406720?s=46&t=Gq6LevnmvzwJvsMpYLZB7A
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I drive a diesel because the state said that was the best eco thing to do and now the state has changed its mind. I am three strides away from being outside my outer London borough (but sadly cannot simply park over the boundary) so my 2500 miles a year will cost me £4500 a year of ULEZ. If people vote out Khan and vote in the Tories at the next election outer London ulez will go. No one doubts that Boris J brought in these ulez plans - he is as inner London white male etc as they come, identikit with Stamer really.
Also many of us don't mind if humans die out a bit sooner - we were only ever going to be on the planet for a short period so might as well go out with a bang.
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Also many of us don't mind if humans die out a bit sooner - we were only ever going to be on the planet for a short period so might as well go out with a bang.
Isn’t this more about particulate pollution not global warming. Kids living near roads.
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Er, no thanks.
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Thick and selfish- the tozza perfect storm.
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Presumably Lydia you’re happy for your grandchildren to die early and in penury? Or are white middle class people able to buy themselves out of armageddon?
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If they didn’t want to die they shouldn’t have been born!
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@lydia If people like you are using their dirty diesels 360 days a year, it's clearly time for some policy discouraging the use of these pollution factories, or at least tax them a bit to pay for the detrimental effects on the health of the people who's neighbourhoods they're polluting.
All new personal diesel cars sold since September 2015 are ULEZ-compliant. Many older ones are so too. After more than 8 years of daily use, it may be time for replacement anyway. Just use the 2k scrappage scheme and help to improve your health and that of your family and neighbours. Or stop complaining and pay the ULEZ fee.
Why do people think they should have the right to indefinitely continue harming their neighbours' health?
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A huge percentage of net-zero zealots and car-haters live in their privalaged urban bubble (mainly in London), where public transport is widespread, timely, cheap and fast.
They are so blinkered, they have no idea how the rest of the country lives.
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SPEAKING AS A CHRISTIAN, WHY SHOULD I CARE ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE’S CHILDREN GETTING ASTHMA AND ABOUT NEEDLESS DEATHS?!?
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Lydia has already said she drives only 2500 miles a year. She is not really part of the problem.
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Yes Calvin how dare the less well off not change their cars frequently. 2k will buy them 1/16th of a Tesla after all!
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Asking for 8 year old air-polluting diesels to be replaced or taxed is not the same as being a 'net-zero zealot' or 'car-hater'.
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What Marshall said above. Wouldn’t surprise me if khan doesn’t even have a driving licence
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The mass encouragement to diesel was of course another labour cause
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The joke about speed limits and air quality in London, which after all is a large part of this, is that the police are responsible for enforcing speed limits on side roads, where people actually live, but as they have no cash you have the absurd situation of 20mph limits all over main roads enforced by TfL with cameras, while people drive as fast as they like on side streets, hammering over speed bumps - which knackers water mains - and generally being anti social. And breathe.
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Remember lads- not a tory.
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Sounds good. For most of us outside London the car is essential and we don’t want to have higher costs just to live our lives.
Some guy has recently started on my team who used to work in London. He can’t even drive and says no Drs in London drive to work. That’s the total opposite of here where I’d say 90% commute by car to the hospitals.
Most of London is solid Labour now anyway (thanks to immigration) so there are no votes to loose.
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@minkie Her (fake?) story doesn't say she drives 2500 miles per year. That would only be 7 a day when driving 360 days a year. I think she implies that she only drives outside the ULEZ area, but needs to drive 3.5 miles to get there.
Also, no one ever bought a diesel for driving just 2500 miles a year.
@risky You don't need a new Tesla to be ULEZ compliant. Just buy a second-hand 7 year old diesel, if you insist on burning oil and polluting the air your kids breath. Demand will be low, so prices too.
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He has a driver licence risky
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11999069/Mayor-Sadiq-Khan-admi…
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‘if you insist on burning oil and polluting the air your kids breath.’
but it pwns the libs!!!!!
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Pollution is a fact of life. Everything we do impacts on other people, to some extent.
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BRING BACK LEADED PETROL, THAT’S WHAT I SAY!!
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AH HA!
I KNEW IT’D BE THE DARKIES FAULT!!
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I did like leaded petrol.
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‘Just’ spend thousands Calvin. In the midst of a cost of living crisis. Ok for you islington based champagne socialists.
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“Also many of us don't mind if humans die out a bit sooner”
classic mentally healthy attitude from Lydia
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but nb also 8 year old diesel engines are not very polluting. Diesel tech was pretty advanced 8yrs ago and, given the move against diesels generally (which is not entirely sensible) hasn’t advanced that much since. ULEZ is mostly an exercise in optics tbh
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p.s. “thanks to immigration LOL!
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It’s true, Laz. London is something like 40% BAME. There’s nothing wrong with that at all but it does rather limit the appeal of the Tories!
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Agreed - time to massively boost levels of public transport infrastructure spending outside London.
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I was one of the many people who purchased a diesel when we were told they were environmentally friendly.
There is nothing wrong with the car and no need for me to change it. It is well maintained, drives well and could easily last me for another 5 years without causing major issues.
I live in Berks just outside the M25 and will be caught by this if I have the temerity to drive into a London borough from the end of August. My intent is, where possible, to stop doing this. If I absolutely have to for work reasons, I will look to pass the cost on to the client.
The whole thing is pointless theatre, mention nothing of the fact there are people driving around central London in 4L Range Rovers and 6L supercars that are, apparently, ULEZ exempt.
The hypocrisy and virtue signalling is off the scale. Most Roffers seem to have a long-haul summer and winter break, with Easter and October half term European City breaks thrown in.
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So, you're argument is that the policy does what it intends to do and is therefore pointless?
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How about the poor kids living near a road whose parents dont own a car and take public transport.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/10/ellas-law-rosamund-….
But as you say they were born so they should expect to die.
Rich coming from a rich private educated twot like you.
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Chimp I’m not convinced. There’s nothing aspirational about getting a bus. Even our seccies drive in. Are you really going to want to get a bus after a long day (10 pm finish?) or a night? If you’re a family of 4 how will you do the shopping?
I don’t think I’m alone in seeing the car as part of my personal freedom. I can chose when to go and the route. I’m lucky that I can afford to pay for that but I can’t see many people being keen to give it up in favour of busses.
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@ Calvin's dad - I will probably change my behaviour and not use businesses inside the ULEZ area. Conversely other businesses outside the ULEZ area will get my custom.
I will look to avoid routes that involve going through the area, thus generating traffic and pollution in areas just outside the zone.
I will probably start turning down or seeking to avoid work at Courts that are not easy to access by public transport, thus reducing the availability of a publicly funded lawyer to the people who need it most (generally the poorest and most vulnerable in society).
Considering the outlay of expanding the scheme I remember seeing a report that it will only work if people keep driving in and they recover a large % of the fines. It's political theatre.
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Agree with the sentiment above that it's ludicrous that this is based on Euro whatever BS and not the actual emissions from the car in any way so your fancy new Range Rovers etc are exempt while poor old 10 year old diesel supermini isn't
I guess in London you don't really need a car to get into and around the city , however it must be remembered that outside London a car is more or less essential still.
When a chinny phones "do you drive and have a car" is often one of the first questions they will ask as to not have one massively limits options for work
Once car ownership becomes general it becomes obligatory and that's whats happened for most of the UK
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So, the London air will be kept clean, you will use (a bit) more public transport than before, and by the time you replace your car you will probably consider picking one that is ULEZ-compliant.
To me, that looks like pretty effective policy.
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Mayor Khan is driven around London in a chauffeur driven Chelsea tractor.
Every journey counts.
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Eh, yes, because we voted for politicians (Livingstone, Khan) who put money into public transport and campaigned for public transport improvements. The fact that mondeo man in whatever part of England he lives in doesn't have that public transport is his own fault. What is wrong with people in England who cannot understand that voting has consequences (see also voting Tory).
I've seen Khan on the tube as have others. At least he's not flying around in a helicopter like Sunak.
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Some of us manage that. Maybe if doctors did that we wouldn't read the stories in newspapers of doctors killing people on the roads after working 24 hour shifts.
Family of four, never had a car. Get the bus, get bulky stuff delivered once a month. It's not difficult.
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Outside London there probably wouldn't be a bus that would get you home . That's the issue. I remember a job I worked at where when we were too tired to drive they'd pay for a cab back. I then had to cycle back to the car and stick the bike in the boot as was the only way to get back there other than getting a train into London then out again .
The joys of non London public transport
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Massively disagree. The fact that public transport is poor outside London is not the fault of the people living there.
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The issue with transport for doctors after long shifts/night shifts is completely separate. Suffice to say that it’s not just a matter of “not wanting to” use public transport. Doctors kill themselves driving home as well as others
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Both excellent pieces of victim blaming tbh
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Is anything ever the fault of these people? They were "lied to" over Brexit, etc. They need to take responsibility for their political choices: who they vote for to Parliament, who they vote for to local councils, how their tax base is, etc. It's always someone else's fault isn't it: EU, immigrants, etc.?
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It's now "victim-blaming" to tell people that they need to take responsibility for their electoral choices. Maybe we should just take the vote away from those in the north of England - or alternatively cut off the subsidy to them. Frankly, the more I think about it the better an idea it seems.
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Eh? This issue is absolutely not the fault of “these people” (I am one). No idea what Brexit has to do with it. Again you display your instinctive contempt for British non-Londoners.
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More idiocy from you. Do you think before you post?
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When people talk about a “London bubble” - you are who they mean. You don’t even bother to disguise the fact that you think the majority of the country barely qualify as human.
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London having dense public transport when other places don't is nothing to do with voting for X and Y or the virtuousness or otherwise of its citizens, it's a simple natural consequence of a large number of people being concentrated into a very small geographical area all wanting to make similar journeys which forces a "peak car" scenario (where once too many people have cars in a small area the advantage of having one naturally vanishes and people stop buying them ) and the development of significant public transport networks .
See every other major city in the world for other examples of this
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Chimp, stop the hyperbole. You just make yourself look ridiculous. What makes it so difficult for you to accept that people in the north of England make their electoral choices and need to take responsibility for those. As an outsider, yes, it seems that there is something deeply dysfunctional about a culture where "it's always someone else's fault". I grew up in Dublin in the 1980s and 90s with 15-20% unemployment and a massive heroin epidemic - the two sons in the next door neighbour family were both dead from heroin overdoses by the age of 30. People made difficult political and personal choices to improve things for themselves and the economy and society. It's perfectly possible for the north of England to do that, but not so long as they keep blaming everyone else rather than taking responsibility themselves.
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@Lordgaga North of England has lots of relatively dense population areas: Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford, Sheffield, Leeds, etc. But it needs political pressure and management to get public transport to work. Andy Burnham (whom I rate very highly) is trying to do that. Others are as well.
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Rob has proved himself to be a genuine urban fool.
The idea that swathes of England outside London have only themselves to blame for poor public transport is really too stupid to pick apart.
In the Chilterns where I live there few bus routes, and those that exist and they run only a few times a day. Modern life would be impossible without a car.
BTW - TFL has received massive subsidies over the decades from the Treasury.
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Rob, you’re being too stupid to engage with. The idea that if people in “The north” just voted differently we would have great public transport is idiotic on its face.
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London subsidises the rest of UK, apart from perhaps SE and East of England. I've posted the stats here previously and am happy to post them again for slow learners.
If people want better bus services then they need to vote for politicians who will support better bus services. There are parts of rural continental Europe with similar population densities to the Chilterns and which have significant better bus services. Density is not the only factor.
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You strike me as someone with very little knowledge or experience of the UK outside your tiny little sliver.
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Have you ever lived in London?
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Er, no, neither is voting choice the only factor. London productivity is continually cited as the reason it should receive more and more investment - no surprise that it becomes more and more productive.
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Yes. Have you ever lived outside London?
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From the guy who just said we should disenfranchise half the country
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How did the Republic of Ireland's economy go in 30 years from being poorer than north of England to being 2-3 times richer? How did Poland's economy go in 20 years from being 1/3 as rich as north of England to being richer? Could the fact that London is highly productive be a function of the fact that 65% of the population there is from ethnic minority and immigrant groups? The idea that London is in some sort of self-reinforcing upward spiral as regards relative productivity and the north of England is in some sort of self-reinforcing downward as regards relative productivity is nonsense. It's just another thing people tell themselves to avoid addressing reality.
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Heh the answer to both your questions rob is massive subsidies from the better off
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Right…so your implication is that investment doesn’t affect productivity. Interesting stuff.
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Everything OK Rob? You seem much more stupid and angry than you used to.
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But there is a massive subsidy to the north of England for generations. The amount of gov expenditure in north of England is over twice what is collected there in taxes. That subsidy is much bigger relative to GDP than any EU subsidies to Ireland or Poland.
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Marshall Hall making a great case for ULEZ here.
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Why did businesses invest in Ireland and Poland and don't in the north of England? It's not because Ireland and Poland had particularly high productivity to begin with. It might be because kids in Ireland and Poland worked harder at school and were significantly better educated. Because those countries have a culture where education is valued and the north of England does not (see relative GCSE results for different English regions).
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Perhaps Ireland and Poland are different in some important ways to the north of England? Maybe the fact that they have their own governments? Or do you think that there’s some kind of inherent quality to people living in the north of England that means we are incapable of benefiting from government investment? Out with it.
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Rob doesn’t understand anywhere but London, where there is a network of superb public transport that could take you anywhere within the current ULEZ zone to probably within half a mile of your desired destination, with only at most a couple of changes.
My only bus route is about a miles walk away, and it goes simply from one largish town to another about 20 miles away. There are no interconnections on the route, apart from at each end, and it often stops at about 8pm.
If I wanted to go anywhere else locally, it would be impossible by public transport.
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Ah, people in the north of England are thick. Got it.
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Yes but when it comes to spending money it’s absolute amounts that matter rob not percentages.
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Have you ever been to the north of England Rob?
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Quite the contrary. The London media class pities the north of England and thinks that nothing can be done with it beyond perhaps managed decline. I saw the Irish economy be turned around in the space of 15 years. I think the north of England could be really successful economically - it's got one of the densest urban areas in western Europe, many good universities (the average 18 year old in England moves north for university - not south), good housing stock, etc. I think there are some very deep cultural issues that hold it back a lot (just as there were in Ireland up to the 1990s) and of course also political issues (Westminster dependency etc.) I really admire Andy Burnham because he's not just about getting autonomy/money from Westminster (although that is part of it) but also about people in Greater Manchester taking responsibility for themselves and their own choices.
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Getting serious Bubbles vibes from this thread.
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Jim McDonaldsorry, rob is notoriously thin skinned. Soon he’ll threaten to ‘take things further’ and then you’ll all be banned for reasons0
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Saying
is not the same as saying
I don't think that the reason that the average GCSE grade in the north of England is significant lower than in London is because of some inherent genetic quality. I think it is related to culture. And I think it can be changed. But it won't be changed by self-pity.
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Yes, exactly - Andy Burnham is improving the local economy of greater Manchester because he has been able to get autonomy and money from Westminster and argue the case for Manchester as somewhere that deserves investment. You basically undid your own argument there.
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No, you need to read better and stop trying to score points.
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https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2016/may/23/northern-secondary-schools-less-funding-london-schools
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@Chimp Why do you think that the average GCSE grade in the north of England is significantly lower compared with London / SE or say Northern Ireland?
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Yes, I read that. It’s obviously not the main driver of Burnham’s success. It rather reads like you realised you were contradicting yourself and tacked that on.
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He's the same amount of both as he always has been. If he posted as much as amithemeatshield he would have the same rep.
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Good to see the Tories switch from 'climate change doesn't exist' to 'climate change is a white male privilege london bubble issue'
But as others have said, definitely not Tories
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As a white working class northerner I find rob's stereotypes both deeply offensive and remarkably incorrect
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I think the reasons for educational underattainment are complex. I don’t think they resolve exactly to “culture” or “investment” but involve both. It’s worth noting that when the local economy is in the doldrums that will affect the local culture with regards to careers and education. If you don’t see success around you that will harm your level of aspiration. In any case, saying things like “we should remove the vote from northerners” doesn’t really marry with a serious concern for the thwarted potential of the north. Suspect you belatedly realised you were being a wally.
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And there it is, a post that confirms the stereotype: complain about being offended, claim that what's being said is incorrect, and yet not refuting a single statement that's been made.
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