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Should there be a right to pay for sex?

And presumably the liberty to provide such services?

Can’t see how you can have one without the other.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/does-a-man-have-a-right-to-pay-for-…-

Your link doesn’t work so can’t read article. It’s hard one to consider.  prostitution is rife and always has been, i was generally in favour of legalisation but looking at the channel 4 programme tonight on trafficking and there was a programme on legalised brothels in Germany a while back and it didn’t seem to ‘help matters’. I suppose a lot depends on whether you think prostitution is inherently wrong. Legalisation would not cut out trafficking and i think the German figures are it encourages the whole industry and men in particular using prostitutes. As i said a big question is whether you have a problem with that.

Also what struck me about the channel4 programme today on busting a trafficking ring was there was a complete concentration on the traffickers but not the men using the prostitutes who must have known or at least suspected these Brazilian women were trafficked and were driving.funding the crime. Legalisation doesn’t seem to have stopped ‘illicit’ prostitution in Germany.

When i say legalisation i mean legalised brothels as in Germany. I suppose you could argue thats legalised pimping s well although i suppose pimping is coercing someone into the sex trade. The women involved in the legalised trade in Germany seemed very damaged and messed up.

It should be free at the point of delivery. State run brothels on the NHS is the only way it could work. A highly trained professional service staffed by mature ex-dinner ladies and volunteer workers. That ought to see off the trafficking. 

How about state-sanctioned glory holes where you don’t know who’s w**king you off. It could be a nubile young hottie or it could be a middle aged unemployed welder.
 

 

Opening paragraphs of article:

A case heard in the Court of Appeal today will decide whether or not carers should be expected to indulge in a spot of light pimping should their disabled client decide he requires the ‘services’ of a prostituted person. 

This April, Justice Hayden ruled that a care worker who assisted C, a learning-disabled man, to secure the ‘services’ of a prostitute had not committed a criminal offence under the Sexual Offences Act 2003. 

The Secretary of State for Justice was granted permission to appeal, and there was also an intervention in the case from the Centre for Women’s Justice (CWJ) as well as Women at the Well and the NIA Project, both of which are NGOs that work directly with girls and women who are, or who have been, involved in prostitution.

C’s legal team relied on evidence from the ‘Outsiders Trust’, which describes itself as ‘a social charity for people with disabilities. Linked to Outsiders is the TLC Trust, which helps ‘sex workers’ make bookings with ‘disabled clients’. On its website, TLC offers advice for disabled men in how to deal with disquiet from carers: 

“‘Question: My care staff refuse to wash me after seeing a sex worker. Answer: Threaten to report them unless they wash you respectfully’. So, hardworking, underpaid carers could be fired if they do not wish to clean bodily fluids following sex.

What laz said. Care workers clean bodily fluids all the time.  Hard to see that is an issue to be honest. They will be wearing appropriate PPE etc. 

There is an awful lot lot to unpick in this.  

Broadly I think the UK law gets it somewhere near right.  You allow sex work (you will never, ever prevent it tbh) but ban the pimps.  Where I think they get it wrong is that they make it difficult for people to provide services to sex workers to enable them to work safely by banning brothels entirely. It should be OK for there to be (heavily regulated, maybe even state operated(?!)) establishments which rent rooms and provide security.  But the room rates should be fixed not revenue share and the establishment should have no involvement in allocating clients to workers 

Considering that people marry for money, I see no obvious difference between that and prostitution. In both cases, sex is exchanged for money. In one case, it is bought in bulk. In the other, it is bought piecemeal.

As others have said, brothels ought to be legal and regulated to allow prostitution to be conducted as safely as possible and to minimise harms and risk of exploitation.

The case of disabled men who have no choice but to pay for sex, is a useful counterpoint to those who propose that the buying of sex should be criminalised.

Prostitution is not, overall, a good thing, in the same way that heroin addiction is not a good thing, but they are both things, despite all the laws restricting and prohibiting them, and so the grown-up thing to do is to regulate them to reduce harm.

 

As said above this is already English law. It is not illegal to pay for sex and it is not illegal to be paid for sex. Whether a man (it is usually a man) can find anyone is a different matter.  It is not an express right - it is simply that it is not illegal for the woman to charge. So if a man cannot find anyone willing to do it at any fee he has no right to compel any woman in in England. So it is not a right in that sense.

I have never and never will pay for sex, but it strikes me that many of the problems sex workers face whether the work is legal or not is the stigmatisation of it which forces it underground.     I struggle to see in this day and age why it is not just considered a socially acceptable business for those that want to provide it which would ensure all proper safeguarding - then come down like an absolute tonne of bricks on people that pay under 18s for sex, are in any way abusive, or fail to follow proper employment practices.  

Those videos porn stars sometimes post on pornhub where some holiday ladsladslads have paid for them to fly out and dole out sexual favours on a yacht off Hvar or Ibiza.

Base and a bit grim if u think too hard about it, but at the same time, hmm hmm woof

Would you think less of someone who paid / pays for sex?

I think the legal position in England on prostitution is broadly correct, but i still would. I also wouldnt be keen on a relative or close friend being a hooker. Something about it just seems a bit gross.

Higher up... you expect men to be happy without a basic human need just because its been made essentially impossible for a certain (increasingly high) percent of us to get it without paying... 

I am not saying "just accept it"

I am saying you can be a worthwhile and successful person without lots of sex

indeed I would guess most men over a certain age are in that position because people get tired 

Yes but there's still an innate thing it taps into innit. And now with the Tindered lockdowned porn meme degenerate clown world we live in, more and more men will have to go without or settle for some pathetic substitute. I can see UberSechs being a thing within the next decade (which Tinder already is with no money involved for the attractive)

“I think that the root of all suffering is desire”

Buddha was thousands of years ahead of you on that Clergs - 

Suffering arises from "attachment" to desires.

gaga you need to get out of this mindset that sex is something only men want, and that women are trading for something else 

seriously, just try and meet some people amd stop thinking about this "incel" nonsense 

lindaradlett03 Aug 21 12:02

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gaga you need to get out of this mindset that sex is something only men want, and that women are trading for something else 

seriously, just try and meet some people amd stop thinking about this "incel" nonsense 

 

Above is a total misrepresentation of what I've said. I never said women didn't want it, I just said that (all other things being equal) it's alot easier for women to get it. When was the last time you saw women talking about "game" and "cold approach" and other such idiotic nonsense?? There's just no need. This is all so obvious I can't believe it even needs arguing

"When was the last time you saw women talking about "game" and "cold approach" and other such idiotic nonsense?? There's just no need"

Men who actually have enjoyable sex lives neither think more talk like this, is the point. This is incel talk

Yes it is linda

But there is now a sizeable subset of men that are into all that sh1t, men who in another era would have not had the issues that lead one to be attracted to such toxic drivel.

 

Maybe as a society we need to start asking why that is instead of just condemning it outright

"men who in another era would have not had the issues that lead one to be attracted to such toxic drivel"

What would have been different in a different era do you think?

 

In the olden times we had a more communist style sexual selection system underpinned by the morality of the Abrahamic religions where monogamy was the norm and most people met someone who was a match , married young and that was it.

Now we have a much more dynamic "capitalist " system which has made it vastly more Darwinian and created a lot of what Clergs would call "spare men".

To be clear this cohort always existed but it is now way bigger than before and to put it simply... the system is creating too many losers especially on the male side. 

Lockdowns and OnlyFans/Internet porn culture are only making it worse as is the aftermath of #metoo which (although undoubtedly necessary to stand up to a disgusting group of men who'd been getting their own way unchecked for too long) has had the unwanted by product of making alot of men (especially the younger ones) too scared to even talk to women outside of online dating which is a bust for most of us.

The next generation is fvcked. Mine had it relatively OK in this respect tbh 

And existed before people started writing stuff down no doubt.

In distant history in fact we were also (I would contend) more degenerate like we are now. 

Religion helped to suppress our worst instincts to at least some degree for many centuries but now it's gone. What happens next ? It's not looking great

If you want to join an organised religion that will encourage some girl under 25 to marry you, you very much still can and they will 

the main driver of marriage being delayed is in my experience of almost all women I know, men not wanting to 

there is a kind of arrested development that seems to be the norm now - I remember people thinking I was young to be married with a child at 28. It really isn't that young 

Yes and it's a by product of the sexual capitalist system . No one wants to settle , everyone wants to have their fun when young and only get the best. Hence for the "sub prime man" these are tough times . Birth rates are also plummeting in all the countries where this culture is dominant 

Apparently the Romans were a bit like this as their empire began to collapse.

Yes your "sub prime" man doesn't want to "settle" either tho. He's terribly cross that the hot girl he thinks should be his doesn't fancy him 

sorry but 🤷🏻‍♀️
 

 

It's all generalisations in the end and so should be taken with a pinch of salt but there is a broad truth that when people are young, women will be significantly less wiling than men to 'settle' and that tends to reverse as women get older and the biological clock starts to tick.  It's particularly true in very big dating pools (and internet dating creates massive dating pools in a way that was essentially unimaginable a generation ago). 

I have seen the dynamics with so many friends.  Almost any moderately attractive woman who is 'out there' in a busy dating scene in a big city will end up hooking up with at least a couple of very 'alpha' blokes. A lot of them do end up thinking they ought to be able to marry someone like that. It's not unreasonable logically, on the face of it. They hooked up with maybe 10 or 15 guys in their 20s. They want to marry someone like the 'top 5' of those guys now they are in their 30s and ready to settle down.  Somewhat ignoring that the 'top 5' probably hooked up with 100 women before settling down and they also want to settle down with someone in their top 5. Which is selected from a somewhat broader pool.

 

"Women are a bit fvcked

Men are turbo fvcked"

Only if everyone thinks they have a god given right to a Scarlett johansen or a Brad Pitt 

and values other people really superficially 

linda I honestly don't feel entitled to that and neither do most people in this situation. If anything it's the mid tier types who DD describes who feel that sense of entitlement

“Would you think less of someone who paid / pays for sex?”

No. I know quite a few people who are quite open about paying for sex either in the past or, in a few cases, actively now. I couldn’t care less tbh. 

I honestly think it depends who they pay, where and how.

Some guy using independent escorts of a vaguely age appropriate age range. I can live with it. 

Someone heading down to the local sauna run by Albanian gangsters.  Scumbag. 

it’s always going to be a bit ick for me but like all “victimless crimes” the worst of the ugliness and suffering can be largely removed by legalisation and control. a lot of the problem with countries where there is some sort of legalisation is the distortion caused by illegality in adjoining countries - germany (sex for sale) Holland (recreational drugs). 

I knew a guy who would go out on the pull in the City on a Friday night and if he struck out would just head over to Kings X. He was decent looking and charismatic and would quite often be successful, but had no qualms about paying for it if things didnt go his way.

He said it took the pressure off.

I don’t see why age should be a criterion at a moral level, provided the age of consent is not violated and the individual doing the selling is legally old enough to enter into a contract.

So I don’t see a moral issue with a 65yo paying to bang an 18yo provided both are informed and voluntary parties to the transaction. It might be a bit grim in an intuitive sense and/or a bit sad, but I don’t think morality has a place at that table.

I think one reason ordinary women, as opposed to feminists, often express a problem with prostitution of the non-coerced sort is that it kind of resets the power balance between women and men in the exchange of sex. Women have a little less sexual power when men can buy sex.

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