tbf this would 100% happen under labour too. 

our cross-party governing consensus is onerous energy costs and carbon taxation. we have a very active and effective industrial policy - it's one that says heavy industry should not happen in britain.

talking about state support to prop it up in the face of state policy is daft

pancakes19 Jan 24 15:45

tbf this would 100% happen under labour too. 

our cross-party governing consensus is onerous energy costs and carbon taxation. we have a very active and effective industrial policy - it's one that says heavy industry should not happen in britain.

_________________________________________________________________________

I think energy prices are going to drop over the next few years, they hit a tipping point in 2022 and that has accelerated western nations largely getting their shit together 

I don't think either party is against heavy industry and geo political risk means its hard to rely on Asia for all the dirty stuff you don't want to sully Britain with now so we might see some changes in the future

(plus TATA aren't saying ta ta, they're just killing the blast furnaces and switching to arc furnaces)

The UK has made explicit policy choices that make its industrial energy prices significantly higher than almost anywhere else in the developed world. Higher than anywhere else in Europe, and Europe is already uncompetitive with much of Asia or the US. 

It doesn't matter if general market prices track downwards if the UK energy input price are stuck higher than all their competitors. 

The point is energy prices and carbon taxes are industrial policy. Bring pro-industry is meaningless if you legislate set their input costs at an unsustainable level. 

surely the £500m came with guarantees for the jobs for a decent period or the money has to be paid back?

pancakes19 Jan 24 15:58

The UK has made explicit policy choices that make its industrial energy prices significantly higher than almost anywhere else in the developed world. Higher than anywhere else in Europe, and Europe is already uncompetitive with much of Asia or the US. 

_______________________________________________________________________________________

yes, but every one is bringing in Carbon border adjustment mechanisms (rightly or wrongly)

Tom - I assume you fully approve of this, seeing as it is a direct result of the brave new world of NetZero.

Meanwhile, China has opened 2 new coal power stations this month.

Tata make steel quite profitably in the Netherlands, because they have not stacked insane levels of tariffs onto their energy prices.

The UK industrial energy price tripled between 2004 and 2021. If you add in 2022 it quadrupled. 

Our public discourse is completely unwilling to make the connection between our policy choices and their obvious direct outcomes. 

Marshall - AIUI the new coal plants in China use clean coal technology and are there to provide power when renewables cannot (or not enough).  So China's GG emissions will start to trend downwards (if not already) even with the new coal plants. 

Incidentally, China produces about a billion tons of steel annually. 

BI - I also believe everything that the Chinese Govt says…🤔

And of course the process of mining and then transporting coal is hugely emissions heavy.

I don't believe everything the Chinese government says but then I also don't believe anything western governments or MSM says either - especially about China. 

Fact is that Chinese renewable investment absolutely dwarfs that of the G7. 

Tata Steel Netherlands cut some 800 jobs at the end of last year, nearly 10% of the workforce at that plant.  Of course Tata Steel Netherlands can sell to the major market right next door to the UK without tariffs... 

@pancakes - would like to see some sources for UK vs EU industrial energy prices, if you could.  Per this site Price data — HEPI (energypriceindex.com) (funded by the Austrian and Hungarian energy regulators) consumer electricity prices in Germany as of Dec 2023 were close behind the UK, while prices in Ireland were higher.  

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/993369/eii-ets-cps-consultation.pdf

Graph on page 14 is rough. Or:
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1628676694138576896

As with everything in the UK so much comes back to planning laws of course. We’ve made it close to illegal to build infrastructure, and so we didn’t build any of the generating capacity we should have in the last 20 years. 

The UK has made explicit policy choices that make its industrial energy prices significantly higher than almost anywhere else in the developed world.

Not sure it’s accurate to call them explicit choices.  That would suggest a strategy.  I think it’s more accurate to say successive governments over decades have ducked making long-term strategic decisions on energy versus short-term political expediency, which is why we’re where we are now.  Also why democracies fail so badly in general compared to autocracies - China and Saudi don’t have the problem of short term political pressure in the main (although sensible democracies like the Scandi countries show it can be done, but they have sensible electorates too)

This is a fab podcast on the subject:

https://overcast.fm/+11HMKG508