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The Moscow terror suspects...

Who have had the sh*t kicked out of them, one of whom apparently had his ear fed to him, another who was barely conscious in court. Do you look at these images and think: (a) what a barbaric country or (b) fair play - they had it coming?

 

I definitely lean more towards (b). Certainly not a jot of sympathy for any of them.

Can't imagine a Moscow criminal court is going to refuse a confession to be admitted as evidence merely because the defendant had that confession beaten out of him.

I have a sneaking suspicion that they were the first brown people the Moscow police encountered (in fact possibly already in custody for something unrelated) who could be used to show how swift and efficient the Moscow police are.  There were clearly far more people involved so it's rather strange that despite the beatings they haven't been able to provide details of the other people.  I don't think any court system can ever be considered fair where the proceedings involve a man who's clearly incapable of understanding the proceedings by virtue of not being conscious.

In a system where the quality of the evidence has no effect on the verdict it hardly matters that confessions are obtained under duress.  

It’s all barbaric, but it’s self-perpetuating.

A state which imposes itself on its citizens is more likely to have terrorists.

some background from this morning's Politico

So what’s going on? Defeated on the battlefield in Syria and Iraq, seeing their bank accounts shut down in Turkey, ISIS is desperate to carry out attacks to prove it remains relevant and, crucially, get donations flowing again. “The number one aim of these attacks is fundraising,” argues Antonio Giustozzi, a London-based analyst who has authored several works about ISIS and its South-Central Asia division, Islamic State-Khorasan (which is particularly active in Afghanistan).

Except that this time, the would-be militants first in line to carry out the attacks aren’t Syrians, Iraqis or radicalized minorities from the West, but — in many of the recent plots — Central Asian Muslims who often face persecution in their home countries and are essentially stateless.

‘Nowhere to go’: “They are young migrants,” said Giustozzi. “Most of them were recruited from Russia to fight in Syria. They have been brutalized in war. Now they have nowhere to go. They are in camps where they are treated like shit. They don’t have a country or family. This process produces people who are essentially nihilists. They are willing to fight in a war that can’t be won.”

Seeking relevance: In the push for visibility and funds, ISIS is looking for targets. “They have been trying in Europe for the last year and a half. This could be Germany or the Netherlands but also France, where tensions between the government and the Muslim community are high,” Giustozzi warned.

Bottom line: ISIS is a far cry from its heyday, reduced to living underground and deprived of fundraising opportunities. But the terror organization hasn’t said its last word.

Like the good old days when we bashed up the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four until they confessed

Absolutely no adverse consequences to any of that whatsoever, big success!

St Paul had it right, on this particular issue at least. From Romans ch.12:

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

this will sound bad but

I really don't care about what happened in Moscow.  I would have cared had Putin not invaded Ukraine and spent the last two years murdering civilians.  Bucha will never be forgotten and I'm not sure I'll ever forgive the Russian people for allowing that to happen and for it to continue.

The Russian people who allowed it to happen by simply keeping their heads down and keeping quiet because they don't fancy a one way trip to Siberia and their kids being conscripted.  Yes they're just so complicit in the whole thing.

Obviously I don’t favour extrajudicial ounishment and no proper court would regard a confession extracted thereby as safe. But these guys slaughtered children with machine guns in the name of their dickhead sky pixie ideology and they’re going down anyway because russian courts aren’t proper courts. So I find myself tuglite.

I do not for a moment believe this incident was false flag and I am full of sympathy for Ivan and Sergei and their families.

the russian people “allowed it to happen”

what like we allowed 7/7 to happen? we have marginally more influence over our leaders than they do. 

No I don’t believe it was a false flag but I don’t understand why we are all so accepting of the claims of IS. At one point Putin said the perps were seen fleeing towards Ukraine. That’s entirely possible and this whole IS thing is baloney. It seems unusual for IS terrorists to attempt escape rather than suicide as part of the attack. 

This incident should remind us all that Russians are people and, as whoever it was sang (I’m not into old fart music) they love their children too. Far too many people on here have taken Ukraine as an opportunity for a good old-fashioned hate-up of the kind that went out with the end of empire. Hope i all get rounded up soon.

If they are innocent, they should be released without charge or acquitted at trial.

If they are guilty, they should be convicted at trial and sentenced accordingly, presumably to life imprisonment. 

Either way, they shouldn't be beaten up. 

I don't have sympathy for them if they are guilty but they should be treated according to the law.

[I appreciate that the above is too idealistic for Russia, but those should be the principles]

We're basically talking about self-radicalised Chechens or similar so they may simply have not had access to or the ability to make explosives for themselves.  They may also have finally realised that blowing up your own troops is really wasteful so best of using them for more than one attack.

The escape to Ukraine sounds like utter bollocks.  Heading south from Moscow they were just as likely to be heading for Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan where they wouldn't have to cross the front line of an ongoing war.

I have not seen any reason to disbelieve that IS was responsible for this atrocity, as they have claimed

they hate the Russians for supporting Assad in Syria, and this sort of cowardly despicable act of gunning down innocent civilians is their modus operandi

Just one of a thousand things that happen every day that doesn't gel with the modern western outlook.

Just as well we live in the west.

The world has always been like this, and always will be. We're animals, deal with it. Everything is circular, this will be happening here again at some point.

The photos of them with their genitals connected to car batteries convinces me that Russia is just a mobster state with zero rule of law.  

I don’t have any confidence that these men are actually guilty and are not simply convenient scape goats for the Russian incompetence. 

So it’s a for me. 

And I pity them immensely if they are in fact innocent. 
 

FF:

They may have thought they’d receive shelter in Ukraine. 

They may have been from Ukraine or sent by Ukraine.

It could be all nonsense and it’s nothing to do with Ukraine and they were from IS as claimed. 

How would the Ukrainians get them through the front lines?  If that were the case there would either be evidence of a helicopter or similar somewhere or an arrangement with Poland.  They certainly weren't going to just drive into Ukraine.

No idea Sails. It’s probably not impossible though seeing as agents regularly cross war zones during most wars. 

It is probably just Putin lying again but I don’t know how reliable a source IS are. 

Crypto26 Mar 24 11:22

No I don’t believe it was a false flag but I don’t understand why we are all so accepting of the claims of IS. At one point Putin said the perps were seen fleeing towards Ukraine. That’s entirely possible and this whole IS thing is baloney. It seems unusual for IS terrorists to attempt escape rather than suicide as part of the attack. 

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that doesn't prove it wasn't IS 

the helps prove it is not a false flag because that is desperate Kremlin spin to avoid showing incompetence. 

Why would anyone involved in a terrorist attack flee towards Ukraine? That's the most heavily guarded and militarised part of Russia. You would flee towards central asia where there are various muslim communities and IS cells getting up to mischief 

it is also possible that these guys are just random migrants who aren't the terrorists that the security forces grabbed on a road south of Moscow

 

they were definitely not fleeing to ukraine 

the zelensky government would have welcomed the opportunity for good publicity presented by handing them back to russia. Demonstrate ukrainian’s western civility. And the tezzas knew this. They were going nowhere near anywhere with rule of law fgs.

Agents used to cross front lines in wars but that was before thermal imaging, drones, helicopters, satellites, airborne surveillance, motion detectors and so on.  If you watched any of the BBC2 thing last night you'd have seen the Ukrainian troops being buzzed by drones by the moment they leave shelter to head up to the front line.  There's no way a moderate sized group could get across that border now without being spotted.  I suspect that the various attacks in Russia are being launched through neighbouring countries or by Ukrainians who are already there rather than special forces sneaking through the woods.

The BBC did a fact check on their route. Apparently yes they could be said to be going to Ukraine but equally they were headed towards the border with Belarus as both countries were in the same direction they were headed. A border that isn’t currently in the middle of a war and with slightly fewer mines, tanks and snipers to dodge. I know what my money would be on.

"I have a sneaking suspicion that they were the first brown people the Moscow police encountered "

 

I am not sure  Moscow wanted it to be brown people did it?

Scylla26 Mar 24 12:13

The photos of them with their genitals connected to car batteries convinces me that Russia is just a mobster state with zero rule of law.  

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this is actually unusually humane for Russia

they usually use those big jumper batteries that you use to start trains out in the siberian wastes 

or, maybe they are out of western spares to use those batteries and had to default to the golf cart ones?

No Guy they've had to admit it was IS because of them claiming it and the US intelligence provided to Moscow so they are now claiming that they were fleeing to Ukraine where they would be given safe refuge.   Naturally that all assumes that these weren't just a few eastern Russians happily on their way from Moscow to somewhere else when they ran into a roadblock staffed by people who decided they'd make decent suspects.

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