The tragic thing about that is the kiddies will look and say "oh, Khunt & Twunt LLP finish by 8pm on average. I can handle that."
Um yeah. But the fact is, half the time you'll be twiddling your thumbs until 8pm because you've got nothing to do but you're too scare to leave. And the rest of the time you're stuck until 4am.
God, it sounds awful. It's quite rare that I actually work my contractual hours. I'd never do overtime. OK I'm paid peanuts but reckon I earn more per hour than those wallahs doing 11 hour days.
Isn’t this self reporting? Bit like people reporting how much they drink or how many sexual partners they’ve had. My shop is on that list and the trainee times look a lot longer than I see day-to-day, but what do I know.
Ofc not - also who cares; everyone is making six figures; most in their 20s or early 30s - why should we apologise for affecting their social lives? City law is a long hours profession and should stop pretending it isn’t when recruiting.
Yeah agree. There was some suggestion that the max shift length in hospitals should be 10 hrs. Not really popular with staff though as some (especially nursing staff) like to do a few long shifts a week and have more days off.
Well. The US firms do require 2000 hours, which requires one to be c 11-12 hours in the office, hence these reported times, I suspect. How effective people are one can only speculate, I suspect there are many "perusing document - 4 hours" entries which carry absolutely fook all value to the clients.
The sooner you start the sooner you finish. Unless you have the sort of personality that thinks spending as much time at work as possible and being a shit time manager means your cock is bigger than everyone else’s ffs.
Yep. Time padding is real and we have to watch out for it constantly and call it out. Start and stop times are pretty much irrelevant since people will be doing 2-3 days from home so your start time could be when you join your first call in your PJs and finish is when you slam your laptop shut in the kitchen and carry on with the cooking.
Time padding is the unspoken greatly accepted dishonest conduct in law firms. Partners know it happens. Fee earning lawyers know they are doing it. It’s more of an issue than ever given the rates firms are trying to impose to justify paying now lawyers more than £100k. Lawyers are under huge pressure to do it - and it will continue to be an issue until clients insist on auditable time recording software that can identify it.
You do know that 100k isn’t a special wage in the City/Wharf any more, right?
loads and loads of people in the city are on the 80-120k range doing 9.30 to 5.30 and without being accused of ‘theft’ or ‘fraud’ if they go for a long lunch
weve got HR, ESG and D&I people on 100k plus and they don’t do anything like sweatshop hrs
if your a tunstruggling doc blozzer you need to know you’re being abused and get out or become an abuser yourself pdq
There’s a price for any job in the market. Margins will get properly squeezed this winter and we’ll see who’s still prepared to pay for padding and crap advice from firms who add nothing.
I’ve worked at a couple of sensible firms where part of your bonus was related to the percentage of time recorded that actually gets paid. That starts to encourage efficiency.
sails’ idea sounds like a good 1 until u realise it pits associ7s directly against partners when the partner comes 2 negoti7ing the fee with the client. so bad clients and uncommercial partners stitch up associ7s
basically whichever way u look at it, associ7s get stitched up
fixed fees r obviously the future, but clients r unrealistic about price so end up trying 2 drive down the price when in fact they just drive up the number of assumptions
£100k for someone an nq is special. You can’t compare that with people who are 10 years into a career. The salary is only justified because the market accepts crazy rates.
law firm economics depend on assets being sweated - and that means associates being charged based on how long they’ve spent working on something rather than the value they bring. Why else do lane forms get rid of experienced associates - you’d never do that if experience was valued. Law firms make money through inefficiency. Your nq taking 2 days to do something that takes a 5 year qualified lawyer perhaps 2 hours is better for the firm. It’s just bonkers - technology ought to mean that the bubble will burst but it never seems to.
Which is one of the reasons these places have so many marketing bunnies peddling guff to similar bunnies in corporates. Relatively cheap at the junior level, helps partners shore up massive inefficiencies and their obscene profits.
100k is a high wage in comparison to other UK wages but a middling wage in comparison to UK cost of living. It's depressing that "at least you're not homeless!!!" is the response. At 100k you get nothing from the state at all (probably not even adequate healthcare).
The time padding thing always seemed like a non-issue at least in my practice area.
Ultimately you look at the work that was done, the value of that work in the context of the case, and if it looks expensive you discount appropriately before you piss off the client.
It may be different elsewhere but in my experience partners want their clients to feel they are getting value for money and to give them more work.
Under that system as a casehandler if you pad your time you get lots of write offs and look shit. So you don't do it.
In large firms with multiple partners interested financially in the same matters - this is where padding happens - it gives those sun teams bigger slices of the pie
- eg big finance or m&a deals the split favours the teams with more time on the clock and so it encourages more not less recording -
as if you’re all sharing a fee of $200k then having $100k on the clock out of $300k recorded for a sub team is better for that team than having $50k on the clock out of $250k recorded when the bill gets discounted. In the first scenario your team gets $66k and in the second it gets $40k.
Oracle some of us associates are allowed to agree our own bills with our clients with no partner involvement and that's why I've got an ace recovery rate this year because I don't have someone with minimal involvement and knowledge of the client telling what to charge.
studies have shown that everyone lies about their hours, and people who actually work longer lie by a greater amount so self-reported data is pretty useless
suspect there's a lot of "if you get an email at 10pm you are expected to notice and answer it if required" which is not remotely the same as actually working non-stop until 10pm
Exactly Parsnip. I now have some decent support and suddenly my recovery rate is over 80% because I'm not having to deal with simple stuff that doesn't justify my hourly rates.
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Law firm: average start end times
There's plenty that have been around for over a Century and still show no signs of closing down!
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Glad I got out tbh
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absolutely massive LOL @ any claimed average workday start time before 9:45an
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But it’s fine because only the best can make it in London!
Funny how no one refuses the Saudi league.
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The tragic thing about that is the kiddies will look and say "oh, Khunt & Twunt LLP finish by 8pm on average. I can handle that."
Um yeah. But the fact is, half the time you'll be twiddling your thumbs until 8pm because you've got nothing to do but you're too scare to leave. And the rest of the time you're stuck until 4am.
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For corporate and finance departments at least. Litigation/contentious defo start earlier.
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Winckworth Sherwood is the only firm on that list that a gentleman should concern himself with
I have it on good authority that they operate on the basis of a ‘gentleman’s 5:30’ (ie 4:45)
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Oh and wot Laz sed.
Obediah m7, I'll give you a good reference if you want to join Deloitte or KPMG or some similarly appalling sweatshop?
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I can confirm to Laz that I will always be at my desk by 8am.
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God, it sounds awful. It's quite rare that I actually work my contractual hours. I'd never do overtime. OK I'm paid peanuts but reckon I earn more per hour than those wallahs doing 11 hour days.
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Dux is bossing it imo.
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Isn’t this self reporting? Bit like people reporting how much they drink or how many sexual partners they’ve had. My shop is on that list and the trainee times look a lot longer than I see day-to-day, but what do I know.
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Also you might log in and out at a certain time but presumably that doesn't mean you are constant pedal to the metal.
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Ofc not - also who cares; everyone is making six figures; most in their 20s or early 30s - why should we apologise for affecting their social lives? City law is a long hours profession and should stop pretending it isn’t when recruiting.
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Yes some of the deals look pretty good to me
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This is like golfers who say they average a 310 carry. They mean that they once hit a drive 290 downwind downhill.
this is not average for most of these firms.
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Indeed I’ve worked at two of those firms and very rarely worked the hours they are suggesting. I obviously brought the average down.
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Thanks but been there, done that. Worst job I’ve ever had, including cleaning toilets.
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No one is effective after they work more than 10 hours a day- unless they are on the old marching powder.
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Yeah agree. There was some suggestion that the max shift length in hospitals should be 10 hrs. Not really popular with staff though as some (especially nursing staff) like to do a few long shifts a week and have more days off.
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Well. The US firms do require 2000 hours, which requires one to be c 11-12 hours in the office, hence these reported times, I suspect. How effective people are one can only speculate, I suspect there are many "perusing document - 4 hours" entries which carry absolutely fook all value to the clients.
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The sooner you start the sooner you finish. Unless you have the sort of personality that thinks spending as much time at work as possible and being a shit time manager means your cock is bigger than everyone else’s ffs.
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The bit I never got on with in PP is how you don’t get rewarded time-wise for being good at your job. You just get more work.
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It’s called employment
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Yep. Time padding is real and we have to watch out for it constantly and call it out. Start and stop times are pretty much irrelevant since people will be doing 2-3 days from home so your start time could be when you join your first call in your PJs and finish is when you slam your laptop shut in the kitchen and carry on with the cooking.
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Time padding is the unspoken greatly accepted dishonest conduct in law firms. Partners know it happens. Fee earning lawyers know they are doing it. It’s more of an issue than ever given the rates firms are trying to impose to justify paying now lawyers more than £100k. Lawyers are under huge pressure to do it - and it will continue to be an issue until clients insist on auditable time recording software that can identify it.
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You do know that 100k isn’t a special wage in the City/Wharf any more, right?
loads and loads of people in the city are on the 80-120k range doing 9.30 to 5.30 and without being accused of ‘theft’ or ‘fraud’ if they go for a long lunch
weve got HR, ESG and D&I people on 100k plus and they don’t do anything like sweatshop hrs
if your a tunstruggling doc blozzer you need to know you’re being abused and get out or become an abuser yourself pdq
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There’s a price for any job in the market. Margins will get properly squeezed this winter and we’ll see who’s still prepared to pay for padding and crap advice from firms who add nothing.
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Lol at 100k not being a special wage
You go to the northern slums and say that
Appreciate it's a bit different for public school southerners
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I’ve worked at a couple of sensible firms where part of your bonus was related to the percentage of time recorded that actually gets paid. That starts to encourage efficiency.
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law firm billing dynamics r a complete mess
sails’ idea sounds like a good 1 until u realise it pits associ7s directly against partners when the partner comes 2 negoti7ing the fee with the client. so bad clients and uncommercial partners stitch up associ7s
basically whichever way u look at it, associ7s get stitched up
fixed fees r obviously the future, but clients r unrealistic about price so end up trying 2 drive down the price when in fact they just drive up the number of assumptions
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£100k for someone an nq is special. You can’t compare that with people who are 10 years into a career. The salary is only justified because the market accepts crazy rates.
law firm economics depend on assets being sweated - and that means associates being charged based on how long they’ve spent working on something rather than the value they bring. Why else do lane forms get rid of experienced associates - you’d never do that if experience was valued. Law firms make money through inefficiency. Your nq taking 2 days to do something that takes a 5 year qualified lawyer perhaps 2 hours is better for the firm. It’s just bonkers - technology ought to mean that the bubble will burst but it never seems to.
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Which is one of the reasons these places have so many marketing bunnies peddling guff to similar bunnies in corporates. Relatively cheap at the junior level, helps partners shore up massive inefficiencies and their obscene profits.
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100k is a high wage in comparison to other UK wages but a middling wage in comparison to UK cost of living. It's depressing that "at least you're not homeless!!!" is the response. At 100k you get nothing from the state at all (probably not even adequate healthcare).
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Davos you plastic-poor professionally northern showpony I can tell you didn’t grow up poor because those of us that did don’t boast about it. U bell.
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I'm not sure your parents estate in Didsbury and your posh school means you get to speak for anyone, let alone me
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The time padding thing always seemed like a non-issue at least in my practice area.
Ultimately you look at the work that was done, the value of that work in the context of the case, and if it looks expensive you discount appropriately before you piss off the client.
It may be different elsewhere but in my experience partners want their clients to feel they are getting value for money and to give them more work.
Under that system as a casehandler if you pad your time you get lots of write offs and look shit. So you don't do it.
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In large firms with multiple partners interested financially in the same matters - this is where padding happens - it gives those sun teams bigger slices of the pie
- eg big finance or m&a deals the split favours the teams with more time on the clock and so it encourages more not less recording -
as if you’re all sharing a fee of $200k then having $100k on the clock out of $300k recorded for a sub team is better for that team than having $50k on the clock out of $250k recorded when the bill gets discounted. In the first scenario your team gets $66k and in the second it gets $40k.
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So are you saying those partners are telling their teams to put down extra time?
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There is encouragement to bill bill bill and no downside for the associate doing so.
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Oracle some of us associates are allowed to agree our own bills with our clients with no partner involvement and that's why I've got an ace recovery rate this year because I don't have someone with minimal involvement and knowledge of the client telling what to charge.
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studies have shown that everyone lies about their hours, and people who actually work longer lie by a greater amount so self-reported data is pretty useless
suspect there's a lot of "if you get an email at 10pm you are expected to notice and answer it if required" which is not remotely the same as actually working non-stop until 10pm
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Law is weird that the badge of honour is getting beasted rather than getting rewards for working smart
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Only for the sheep.
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Exactly Parsnip. I now have some decent support and suddenly my recovery rate is over 80% because I'm not having to deal with simple stuff that doesn't justify my hourly rates.
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