I try to stay away from ME politics but.. how is it acceptable to respond to an atrocity by committing an atrocity?  In my view, this makes you as culpable and evil as the original crime.

Additionally, check out the remarks by US Senator Marco Rubio.. this is very disturbing.

What did rubio say?

Rubio will regret those remarks I think. He's a right wing nutter but I don't think he realised what he was saying. 

He was asked if Israel can destroy Hamas without killing innocent civilians and he said they can't coexist, called them savages that needed eradication. He must have been referring to Hamas, but it came across as Palestinians in general that needed to be eradicated. Not a great look.

An eye for an eye

Here's the thing RR, you should have to interpret what a US Senator meant, particularly in a climate where MAGA want all their domestic enemies rounded up, shipped in barges to Guantanamo and summarily executed.

Currently, on twitter, they are relentlessly attacking Rashida Tlaib who is of Palestinian descent.  

The line "Hamas is responsible for Israel's (entirely supported by the West) attack on Gaza is wearing a little thin. The afterthought of "must comply with international law" means very little since there is no acknowledgment of what this means for people living in Gaza who are not Hamas.

At what point will anyone be brave enough to suggest that ordinary people living in Gaza do not deserve to be starved or bombed to death for the terrorist actions of Hamas? 

seems like the Hamas scheme of provoking Isreal into a response so extreme  the international view will eventually change from initial sympathy to considering hem both being as bad as each other is working - shame on lots of levels that Israel was stupid enough to fall for it.

I know why they are doing it and I agree they have to do something 

But not sure it's this

I don't know what though. This option is very much kill the other side and not suffer deaths ourselves so don't see why it is different to nuking Japan, firebombing Tokyo/Dresden etc etc 

This is indeed a conflict where both sides are aunts and it's hard to have sympathy for any of them.  The invasion will just recruit the next couple of generations of Hamas fighters.

That was Total War Davos where the entire economies of Japan and Germany had been converted to supporting the killing of allied soldiers. This is not that.

Indeed Guy but it is not really about the international view. Hamas is primarily looking to set the region on fire again. It's working. People in the Middle East are already getting very angry about the scenes coming out of Gaza and the rhetoric, even in English language news outlets is ramping up fairly quickly. From what I am told the Arabic language is news is a good number of steps ahead of that. 

Hamas knows it only gets to exist for so long as there is war.  It's primary concern is to keep the war going (and well funded). 

Well put Donny.

They also want the Lebanese to join in so that Israel is forced to fight on multiple fronts.

I'm astonished by 450 air strikes in a night as I don't think the US managed 450 air strikes in a week in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I think 100,000 plus Palestinians will die directly as a result of this response. It’s a tragedy.

Not saying reprisal isn’t justified. It is. This is going to be a ratio of 100:1 in terms of deaths though.

Its not going to be a war crime. 

Since when does one combatant have to provide utilities to another?

don’t be a dick all your life wombat - “turning off” the hospital while obliterating the neighbourhood is collective punishment (being generous). 
ideally hamas should be exterminated with extreme prejudice but Israel’s response looks like it’s going to be the best recruiting sergeant hamas have ever had. 

Israel has blockaded Gaza for 16 years.  That's arguably already a war crime.  To put 2m Gaza's under total siege, whilst bombing the shit out of civilian buildings and not allowing even the most basic humanitarian aid in is definitely a war crime.

If they want power, get it from Egypt. 

Israel's energy minister, Israel Katz, has just tweeted: “Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home"

That sounds really quite a lot like collective punishment. 

Why doesnt Egypt open their border? It shouldnt be on Israle to give aid to the bastards that voted in Hamas and attacked them last weekend. 

Locals dont like it? Get rid of Hamas. 

They were celebrating the attacks in Gaza so fvck em. 

That tweet in Donny’s post is chilling. Israel will swiftly undo the goodwill it currently has.

This is a proper old school middle ages siege.

Thing is, pretty much the whole point of international law is stop people saying 'fvck em' when the 'em' in question are a civilian population.  

Hamas were elected in 2006 and haven't  allowed an election since.

Have there been any protests from the populace? 

Does the populace still support Hamas?

Why cant Egypt supply them?

Egypt hates Hamas too for various reasons and they've previously shut down the overland route that Iran was using to smuggle weapons, etc.  

"Since when does one combatant have to provide utilities to another?"

wombo - you seem to be suggesting that Israel is at war with Gaza, not Hamas?

Egypt is looking at options to supply them it seems but:

1. the place is under constant bombardment and Egypt has no visibility on when or where strikes are going to happen. It would be very, very bad indeed if Egyptian military personnel got killed by Israeli bombs while delivering aid. Israel has already launched strikes near the Egyptian border. 

2. There isn’t the infrastructure in place to supply water and electricity from Egypt. 

indeed Donny, there are reports that the Israelis have already bombed the Rafah crossing itself.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-bomb-rafah-crossing-to-egy…

Hamas have set off a chain reaction which until this point was fairly predictable, including the extreme discomfort very many Jews feel at the humanitarian disaster unfolding. 

Possible left field outcomes?

The ball is back in the hands of Hamas. It's one thing to scream 'Death to Israel' when the stakes are the usual status quo, another when you realise you face Armageddon, and they do.

My sense of this is that Israel will not stop unless Hamas unconditionally surrender. Until then any man with a gun in his hands will die. That is war and which of us would expect our leaders not to respond ferociously to last week's events and the declaration of war that is thousands of missiles sent into civilian zones. 

I'm still partially of the view that the massacres inflicted on Saturday may have been part rogue elements that went off script. That could give Hamas a way out if they decide they are not going to fight until last man standing, or if the sizeable non Hamas contingent dont start turning them in once the ground invasion starts if we reach that point. I don't expect Israel to blink.

When the border with Egypt was last open, Hamas pretty openly tried to interfere in domestic Egyptian politics, actively supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.  The Egyptian government really wants nothing to do with them.

“That is war and which of us would expect our leaders not to respond ferociously to last week's events and the declaration of war that is thousands of missiles sent into civilian zones.”

No. I would not expect my leaders to commit genocide (no water, no power, no food) of an innocent population. I would not expect my leaders to breach international law and commit war crimes.

King - Hamas is the government of Gaza, they are at war. 

If Gazans want the shelling to stop and the lights to go back on then everyone that was involved in the massacres over the weekend need to be handed over

What Prodigal said.

I fear Honeybun, that when you take 100 civilian hostages and leave behind many hundred civilian dead, you've set a terribly ill judged precedent for your rules of engagement.

I wish it were otherwise.

mr marsupial - yes but the consistent line from the Israeli govt and IDF (which they are still maintaining) is that they only ever target Hamas, meaning the terrorist organisation. civilian casualties, they have always said say while making a feeble show of wringing their hands, are regrettable collateral damage. your viewpoint (which does seem to align with the current behaviour of the Israelis - effectively turning the whole of Gaza into a free fire zone) belies this position.

regardless of the probably tenuous distinction between being at war with a terrorist organisation hiding inside a state or with that state itself, Israel is clearly (at best) willing or (at worst) determined to inflict immeasurable suffering on the ordinary population of Gaza and is indifferent to whether its actions constitute war crimes (which they are faod). an argument of "well they deserve it for voting for Hamas", even if if had any merit, would not alter that.

I have great sympathy with the Israeli people being mercilessly attacked by Hamas and tbh they have every right to take Hamas down completely. At the same time, I find it impossible to imagine war crimes aren’t being committed by the IDF.

It doesn't work like that though PS (as you well know). Two wrongs don't make a right anywhere and they certainly don't under international law.

International law is normally completely meaningless. We must hope the Americans can convince them to exercise restrain otherwise it will be a massacre 

Let's face it: in international relations, when national interests are at stake, each state actor does precisely what they can get away with, whether in the walnut-panelled rooms of Brexit negotiation or the battlefields of the Middle East. 

Hamas, the elected government of Gaza as already pointed out, have shown that they'll do everything in their power to damage the State of Israel.  They have invited war upon themselves and should be hardly surprised when it comes to them.  They have, deliberately, embedded themselves within the civilian population and infrastructure to such an extent that targeting the military elements of Hamas is not possible without hitting civilians.  That is the advantage that the guerrilla enjoys over regular armed forces.  But it's only an advantage where the opponent feels himself held back by public or international opinion.  Hamas has done their utmost, by their actions last weekend, to remove that protection.  In war terrible things happen no matter who does the fighting - have done since time immemorial, will continue to do.  That is why those who face the prospect of war should have the utmost reluctance to provoke it.  

Israel has the military power and now the political will to seek nothing short of unconditional surrender - to continue the war until the Gazans utterly reject their government, turn those responsible for the weekend's attacks over to Israel, and show they are no longer a threat by disarming themselves and abjuring armed conflict.  We (as in the US and UK) did much the same in WW2 and did not stop until Germany and Japan were devastated.  We should not be surprised if Israel now aims to do the same.  

Leaving aside the issues there are some very basic assumptions being made here about the nature of international relations. Where ‘basic’ means basic, 

international law is not in any sense meaningless; it is in fact of the utmost importance; hope this clarifies

Israel has the right to defend itself.

Israel has the right to take all actions necessary to get the hostages back.

How would you feel if France sent a bunch of gunmen over the channel, who then gunned down hundreds of young people at Glastonbury, raped women, murdered entire villages, and took several hundred people back to Paris as hostages?

See my Beyond Our Comprehension thread

it is in fact of the utmost importance

I get that you enjoy being contrarian, but as someone who holds himself out as a lawyer you know as well as the rest of us that it is only meaningful to the extent that a given state willingly submits to it. In this situation that quite obviously isn’t happening.

Pez Vela doesn’t say anything Warren doesn’t in the OP. Taking out Hamas is a legitimate war aim. It’s impossible to imagine it being done tho without civilian casualties. That’s not the war crime tho. The potential war crime is actively attacking gazan civilians by attempting to starve them with a blockade. And cut off their energy and clean water. All siege warfare is a war crime tbh

Self defence doesn't require a country to prevent humanitarian aid from being delivered to homeless, injured and dying civilians.

no, if a state flouts international law, its leaders can find themselves dragged up before the beak at the Hague and banged up. That has happened before and it wasn’t a case of willing submission.

As most people would agree, plenty of Israeli leaders past and present have done or knowingly authorised naughty shit that would see them down for a stretch of thirty at The Hague.

Total war means blockade.  We ought to know this very well as we did just this to Germany in both world wars (was a significant factor in bringing the Germans to the table in 1918) and Japan in WW2. 

The idea we would have continued supplying power and water to our mortal enemies then or now is laughable IMO.  Indeed we did our level best to take such facilities out eg. the Mohne Dam, immortalized of course in the movie Dambusters.  

yes, we also did illegal things including the destruction of dams, starving civilians, and firebombing them in their tens of thousands in dresden

all war crimes as anyone who isn’t a turbo gammon well knows

In this situation that quite obviously isn’t happening.

LB, Blinken is in Israel to demand that it abide by its international obligations.  Listen to his speech with Netanyahu.

It’s a defining moment for the Biden administration 

The UN ought long ago have gone in, politely invited the IDF to move back into the 1948 borders, instituted a peacekeeping zone and supervised a non militant government in Gaza

fooking psychos advocating for blatant collective punishment of the civilian population

don’t you realise that “if they don’t like it they should change their government” is the exact same rationale employed by Hamas and indeed al-Qaeda to justify the murder of civilians in Israel and the West respectively

there is self evidently no moral, military or practical justification for preventing the supply of basic goods and healthcare to the Gazan population beyond pure revenge 

all war crimes as anyone who isn’t a turbo gammon well knows

Only if you lose a war m99.  If you're the winner those who carry out those war crimes are glorified as heroes *starts humming Dambusters theme*. 

What was it Churchill said after watching the Nuremburg trials?  "Remind me never to lose a war"? 

Israel just needs to make sure they win.  They may not win the battle of public opinion, but tbh who cares.  No one is going to attack a nuclear-armed state.  Even the US doesn't fancy trying it on with North Korea, let alone Iran et al with a state that has the "Samson Option".  

Wombats of Doom, I am specifically referring to you 

Israel just needs to make sure they win.  They may not win the battle of public opinion, but tbh who cares.
 

yeah great advice

That’s all very well Pez but Israel can’t take on the surrounding states on its own. That’s how the US gets dragged in further. That’s the point. That’s how it turns into a WW conflict. Ff actual s.

*starts humming Dambusters theme*

Bombing dams wasn't a war crime until 1977. Thanks for playing.

they probably can’t win tbh

they might be able to eliminate the current Hamas but so long as the people of Gaza live in the conditions they do, there is going to continue to be big trouble 

I still support their basic aim of taking Hamas out tho

I just think it’s a big ask

the idea that Israel can “win” if it is just aggressive enough is completely idiotic

its leaders can find themselves dragged up before the beak at the Hague 

this is not happening to any Israeli leader.

it could, and the fact that could very realistically limits certain israeli leaders’ ability to travel and conduct diplomacy 

this is like saying criminal law generally has no purpose because some criminals don’t get caught

Just an FYI for people who are saying international law is not relevant, Israel (and every other country I believe) has signed up to the Geneva Convention. Rule no.1 is that attacks shouldn't be directed at civilians. Even though Israel is not party to the ICC, breaches can be punished by national states exercising universal jurisdiction. 

it’s facile to suggest that Israel is not constrained by international law

Israel is a small state surrounded by enemies

it needs to maintain some semblance of respectability

Bertha, I dont see any of the neighbours weighing in.

Hezbollah will show some measure of support but just enough to prevent them meeting the same fate as Hamas.

I wouldnt want to be insuring any Iranian nuclear scientists right now.

Israel can’t take on the surrounding states on its own. That’s how the US gets dragged in further. That’s the point. That’s how it turns into a WW conflict. Ff actual s.

That's what nuclear deterrence is for.  Gaza is not important enough for Iran or anyone else to get their cities blown up for.  Indeed, if some news reportage is accurate, the attacks last weekend were instigated by parties (read: Iran) that wanted to prevent the steady rapproachment between Israel and some former enemies such as KSA, which over the last decade or so have been paying lip service to the Palestinian cause, while steadily strengthening links with Israel.  

it’s facile to suggest that Israel is not constrained by international law

where’s the enforcement mechanism? America would never sanction Israel and none of the leaders will ever end up in The Hague. That’s why this situation is so worrying.

Let's face it: in international relations, when national interests are at stake, each state actor does precisely what they can get away with, whether in the walnut-panelled rooms of Brexit negotiation or the battlefields of the Middle East. 

Hamas, the elected government of Gaza as already pointed out, have shown that they'll do everything in their power to damage the State of Israel.  They have invited war upon themselves and should be hardly surprised when it comes to them.  They have, deliberately, embedded themselves within the civilian population and infrastructure to such an extent that targeting the military elements of Hamas is not possible without hitting civilians.  That is the advantage that the guerrilla enjoys over regular armed forces.  But it's only an advantage where the opponent feels himself held back by public or international opinion.  Hamas has done their utmost, by their actions last weekend, to remove that protection.  In war terrible things happen no matter who does the fighting - have done since time immemorial, will continue to do.  That is why those who face the prospect of war should have the utmost reluctance to provoke it.  

Israel has the military power and now the political will to seek nothing short of unconditional surrender - to continue the war until the Gazans utterly reject their government, turn those responsible for the weekend's attacks over to Israel, and show they are no longer a threat by disarming themselves and abjuring armed conflict.  We (as in the US and UK) did much the same in WW2 and did not stop until Germany and Japan were devastated.  We should not be surprised if Israel now aims to do the same.  

The usual nonsense of war criminal's everywhere - you start with "Hamas did X" and somehow subtly morf it into "a load of other people I would like to kill did X".  

Hamas, the elected government of Gaza

Grow up, that election was 19 years ago.

until the Gazans utterly reject their government, turn those responsible for the weekend's attacks over to Israel, and show they are no longer a threat by disarming themselves and abjuring armed conflict.

Why don't you add the condition that they all jog to the moon and back, if you're going to impose conditions that you don't want any possible chance they can meet, to ensure there's no obstacle to your intended genocide? 

Netanyahu’s chances of ending his days in the slammer are pretty real

An Israeli one, quite possibly. 

Israel just needs to make sure the big money in the Sunni world (ie KSA and UAE) are on side.  And KSA and UAE both fear Iran more than Israel (cf discussions with KSA to purchase the Iron Dome system).  Egypt is reasonably on side already, given - as noted above - Hamas being a bad actor in Egyptian politics, Jordan won't move without the others, and Syria is... 

the enforcement mechanism is the cost of becoming an international pariah 

Interestingly, one of the most successful anti-insurgency campaigns was in Malaysia.  That was won basically by actually isolating and defending the civilian population from the terrorists so they could not impose their will on them via violence any longer, rather than treating everyone as a terrorist which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.     

the enforcement mechanism is the cost of becoming an international pariah 

this is not an enforcement mechanism when the issuer of the world’s reserve currency/operator of the world’s largest army unequivocally supports you.

Like I said, we must hope the Americans step in.

Interestingly, one of the most successful anti-insurgency campaigns was in Malaysia. 

That is what the UK would like the world to believe, and which led to tragic consequences when we went into Basra thinking we could do something similar. 

The reality is - Malaya was far enough from the PRC or other major backers that the Malayan Communists could not be supplied as the Viet Minh/Viet Cong could, and (just as importantly) the Communists were predominantly of Chinese ethnic origin and never came close to winning over the majority Malay population, distrust of ethnic Chinese people ("the Jews of the East") being of pretty long standing in South East Asia.  

If we'd had to deal with the Viet Minh, we'd have been kicked out as conclusively as the French were. 

"the idea that Israel can “win” if it is just aggressive enough is completely idiotic"...

Yes, but little boys cosplaying bargain bucket Captain Americas, pretending they are big, tough fighting men, with big, tough fighting words - like Pez and Wombat -  get hard at the thought of all that death and destruction and big, loud explosions (if you only see it on telly, it's kinda just like a video game!!), so here we are...

Just heard Israel has bombed Syria's airports in Damascus and Aleppo.

Source?

https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/syria/2023/10/12/israel-attacks-syria-airports/

Source is Syria State TV. 

Bbc reporting it but not confirmed 

Israel's bombing and genocide of the Palestinians is truly shocking and horrific. It is sickening.

Our right wing bias media (BBC, Sky, CNN) are just mouth pieces for the Israeli lobby. We are fed utter nonsense day in day out. Are people not able to think freely?  Do people not realise that this attack did not occur in a vacuum? Do people not understand that tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed by Israel over 70 years of illegal occupation. Land stolen from them. 

Israel's bombardment is a war crime, but who cares right? It's just the Palestinians. Let's all condemn Russia and rally around Ukraine but it's okay for Israel to do whatever the fcuk they want with zero accountability. What a world we live in. 

Cru, are you Jewish?

I am and im not comfortable with an organisation that has, in its founding charter, the stated aim of killing all jews contiuing to exist. 

If the populace of gaza continues to side with gaza, fook them. especially after last weekend.

And israel has been bombing that airport for momths

447 children - presumably not Hamas terrorists - have been killed in Gaza.

Why don't you add the condition that they all jog to the moon and back, if you're going to impose conditions that you don't want any possible chance they can meet, to ensure there's no obstacle to your intended genocide? 

The conditions I stated - complete rejection of Hamas and its ideology, turning over Hamas leaders, and disarmament - were the outcomes that happened with Germany and Japan in 1945.  Why shouldn't the State of Israel seek similar aims as were achieved by the victors of the ultimate "good war"?  

When the border with Egypt was last open, Hamas pretty openly tried to interfere in domestic Egyptian politics, actively supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.  The Egyptian government really wants nothing to do with them.

It wasn't just political interference, IIRC: 

August 2012 Sinai attack - Wikipedia 

Attacking during a religious observance (Ramadan that time) seems to be a common thread.  

If the populace of gaza continues to side with gaza, fook them. especially after last weekend.

DEAD PALESTINIAN CHILDREN HAD EVERY CHANCE TO GET RID OF HAMAS: NO SYMPATHY!!

I doubt anyone here - Jewish or otherwise - supports Hamas, Wombat. They are terrorists, barbarians, absolute scum. Personally, I would be happy to see them wiped out.

That is not what is happening here, though. Israel knows that it cannot eliminate Hamas through military means.

So what we are seeing is the brutal punishment of a civilian population amongst whom the terrorists operate.

I am and im not comfortable with an organisation that has, in its founding charter, the stated aim of killing all jews contiuing to exist. 
 

ah right you will then support measures that will have the consequence of reducing rather than increasing support for it

If the populace of gaza continues to side with gaza, fook them. especially after last weekend.

oh

If the populace of gaza continues to side with gaza, fook them. especially after last weekend

The problem is, every time a civilian dies a relative becomes a terrorist sympathiser at the very least - so that's a bad idea. 

To be honest the whole situation is just royally fooked. 

DEAD PALESTINIAN CHILDREN HAD EVERY CHANCE TO GET RID OF HAMAS: NO SYMPATHY!!

MORE MARTYRS!!! 

(says Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh from Doha...) 

In terms of area of territory:

- Israel (excluding West Bank and Gaza) is about the size as Wales. .

- Gaza Strip is half the size of Singapore.

Appreciating how small a space this is happening in can help give a perspective that is more atuned to the reality. I don't think that it makes one more favourable to either side, but it does show how there are an awful lot of people engaged in a conflict over a relatively small and densely populated area.

The population density of Israel is the almost exactly the same as England. However, when you exclude the southern half of Israel that is the Negrev desert, the northern half of Israel is a good bit more densely populated than even the Netherlands. And the density of population in Gaza is 20% more than the average for Greater London.

The conditions I stated - complete rejection of Hamas and its ideology, turning over Hamas leaders, and disarmament - were the outcomes that happened with Germany and Japan in 1945.  Why shouldn't the State of Israel seek similar aims as were achieved by the victors of the ultimate "good war"?  

Because in this case you're imposing them for the purpose of facilitating and justifying genocide, not to defeat the enemy.

BBC reports 450 Gazan children killed by Israeli bombardment since Saturday

great that Israel isn’t fighting with one hand behind its back eh Pez

Tell you what Pez, I'm assuming you'd be happy with the killing of Jews as long as Hamas issues a demand beforehand stating that they won't do it as long as the people of Israel make complete rejection of all right-wing anti-palestinian expansionist political parties and religious groups and their ideology, turning over all their leaders leaders, and completely disarm.  Oh and withdraw from all occupied areas completely.

Apparently once you issue any ultimatum you like, you can then murder, starve, oppress anyone you issued the ultimatum too.  Is this how you think reality works?

The Hamas Charter demands all that and more.  

But what you demand is all hot air, unless you have the capability to enforce those demands. That is indeed how reality works.