obviously the nursery can lay off staff if a kid is sick for a week or two and therefore its costs are reduced so yes it will always refund fees in such circs
Well that's what they say now in public. But it's pretty clear private nurseries will be next. And then university fees too (they were an Old New Labour invention if you recall).
Private nurseries are terrible business though. It's probably the hardest way to scratch a living there is in this country.
there is absolutely no way Labour are going to introduce legislation to make it more expensive to send children to nursery, you are having a comedically outsized giraffe with that one
They won't need to introduce legislation, Chimp, they just delete existing exemptions.
If they aren't planning to do this for all fee paying education settings, then why did they abandon their original plan to can the charitable status of private schools (which would not have affected nurseries - not charities - nor universities - also not charities).
The structure of nurseries is entirely a Tory creation. Simple economics dictates that they should be pre-schools with economies of scale, easy transition to school etc, but they will not do it because they lose out on tens of thousands of natural Tory voters collecting excessive handouts due to the friction of micro-managing govt subsidies.
As for the lack of sickness cover, again this is thanks to the shitty structure. A large nursery/pre-school could have a sick-bay. Instead what you end up with is people desperate to get them back in covering up e.g. vomiting bugs and other transmissible diseases. People like JRM assume decent people have a nanny.
clergs, for someone who doesn’t have children and seems quite content with that choice, you do seem to have quite an obsession with what you perceive as the iniquities inflicted on parents.
Some nurseries let you book by the day or week and if you’ve done that then you may be able to just not book for the period in question. But most charge by the month or term and most parents want to book in advance to ensure access. No you don’t get your money back for the reasons highlighted by Heffalump.
Most nurseries are on fairly tight margins, and falling a few child-weeks short in revenue would be the difference between red and black. Parents who have booked for a term, on the other hand, will have budgeted for a term and know therefore that they can afford to pay for a term, even if they don’t get 100% of the benefit in return.
I can confirm (based on the crux of my q) that at least some nurseries are absolutely raking in the big profit. I'm surprised the bargaining power lies so strongly in their hands. I concede my two weeks example above isn't that realistic but wondered if there was a limit beyond say three days when you'd expect a refund.
This all bothers me less than the profit in care homes, which is unreal. Die before care homes.
It does rather make you think that that need to bring the process under state control. The economy is so utterly reliant on its effective functioning and yet we let cowboys run it.
I don’t have kids but am always horrified when I hear about nursery fees. OBs example above is extraordinary. Some people are working just to afford the fees and ensure they remain in the workplace. Particularly impactive on women. I remember when I applied for silk reading the stats on career progression for female barristers. The numbers fall off a cliff at 10-15 years call due to childcare responsibilities. So women are often making a decision between kids and career. Often they’re working just to ay the fees but if they can’t afford that then they stop work. End result there’s a tiny number in silk. And then judicial positions. And it keeps repeating.
Yes, £2.5k a month is absolutely insane. That is well within the range of simply being impossible for a lot of people. My friend told me he pays £800/month (one child, north-east) and I thought that was bad.
It’s much easier working full time and having kids at nursery than at school - which is the opposite of what everyone thinks.
school is a lot more involved, expects more of parents - home learning, evening meal etc and hours are whack so constant top up logistics to be organised and still a lot of spends - breakfast club, afterschool club and holiday camps - which for the 4 year olds only run til bloody 3 which is useful as a chocolate teapot if you’re supposed to work 9-5
Laz if u run a department and never have to strategise around other people's childcare problems I am seriously dubious about your recruitment dynamics tbh.
I guess provincial living makes one complacent about fairness on these matters. And obviously less personally loaded.
It is one reason parents might hire a nanny although that might cost £60k including employer NI and auto enrolment pension rather than 24k x 2 for 2 babies full time in a London nursery.
On Labour's VAT on private school fees it is going to be very complicated because vast numbers of private schools have nursery age children so where does Labout do its cut off? Will it be age 4 or 5?
In Tony Blair's day we got £600 off the twins' first private school fees as the twins were 4 and there was some kind of voucher thing probably what is now the "free" 15 hours (30 hours if you earn less) and I thought it was quite funny that the first political party to introduce a kind of voucher to set against private school fees was the Labour party.
where does Labout do its cut off? Will it be age 4 or 5?
Gr88 question. If only we had some existing mechanism to determine the age at which a child moves from pre-school to proper school. The sphinx would have a hard time figuring this one out.
Btw labour will reduce nursery costs in order to get more people (majority of whom are women) back to work quicker
You know, because they don't like increasing inequality like the Tories
Is there any evidence that having more parents of pre-school age children working full time will reduce inequality?
I ask because I think that over the past 40 years in the UK the percentage of parents of pre-school age children working full time has increased and everyone tells me that inequality has also increased over that period.
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fooking £600+ for absolute nowt?
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obviously the nursery can lay off staff if a kid is sick for a week or two and therefore its costs are reduced so yes it will always refund fees in such circs
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Yeah i forgot it was one to one care for kids in nurseries amazing
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Ofc the chavvy noovs who own them could probably cut the divvies occasionally... or nurseries could be nationalised.
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What do they think on sumo’s board?
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heh, yes! They still have rent and wages to pay.
When Keir gets in, you won't get the VAT back on the fees either.
So £720+ per week for nought when New new labour are here.
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I don't think the Labour policy will affect nurseries will it?? I thought just schools. Woah this is a lacuna in my knowledge.
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Cookie I have no idea sumo and I are old enemies.
I know you miss the cool folk, me too. Me too.
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It's the same piece of legislation I think. Came from the EU.
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I don't think private nurseries are chazzas are they???
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(VAT Act 1994, Schedule 9, Group 7, Item 9 refers).
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They're not relinquishing charitable status they are removing the VAT emption for private education "businesses".
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But i don't think the policy is to affect sub para b only to remove charitable status from schools?
????
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I don't think they can be intending to capture nurseries. Have they said they will?
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Ps i am swooning at that statutory ref ur my favourite roffer
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Well that's what they say now in public. But it's pretty clear private nurseries will be next. And then university fees too (they were an Old New Labour invention if you recall).
Private nurseries are terrible business though. It's probably the hardest way to scratch a living there is in this country.
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NO WAY to uni feels holy guacamole
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I think the stat ref is wrong, tbh. Copied it from a gov.uk site.
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Heh! Well it depends on the point u were trying to make but regardless i don't think nursery fees will be caught.
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They’re not cool they’re c unts.
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there is absolutely no way Labour are going to introduce legislation to make it more expensive to send children to nursery, you are having a comedically outsized giraffe with that one
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Well that's what they say now in public. But it's pretty clear private nurseries will be next.’
😂
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Sorry that’s nowhere near enough lols
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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It says current at 6 April 2023.
Group 6 might also apply. The VAT exemption on the supply of organic free range spaghetti bolognese must rankle for the lefties...
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/vat-education-manual/vatedu369…
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They won't need to introduce legislation, Chimp, they just delete existing exemptions.
If they aren't planning to do this for all fee paying education settings, then why did they abandon their original plan to can the charitable status of private schools (which would not have affected nurseries - not charities - nor universities - also not charities).
It's too obvious what they are plotting.
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they are not "plotting" to increase nursery fees you absolute joker
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let's see eh
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yes, let's
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Because slapping Vat on is a lot easier to do than removing charitable status. Hth.
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Yeh i love the vat schedues but i don't think reality is defined by them to this extent
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IT’s ToO oBvIouS wHaT tHeY aRe pLoTTinG!!!!
🤪🤪🤪🤪
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*bookmarks thread*
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lol
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The structure of nurseries is entirely a Tory creation. Simple economics dictates that they should be pre-schools with economies of scale, easy transition to school etc, but they will not do it because they lose out on tens of thousands of natural Tory voters collecting excessive handouts due to the friction of micro-managing govt subsidies.
As for the lack of sickness cover, again this is thanks to the shitty structure. A large nursery/pre-school could have a sick-bay. Instead what you end up with is people desperate to get them back in covering up e.g. vomiting bugs and other transmissible diseases. People like JRM assume decent people have a nanny.
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Do you actually have any children bananaman?
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If your pre-school child is off sick for "a couple of weeks" then I'd be a bit worried. They shake 99% of bugs in 48rs or less.
More hysteria frankly.
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Err £600 for two weeks??
Try £900.
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Btw labour will reduce nursery costs in order to get more people (majority of whom are women) back to work quicker
You know, because they don't like increasing inequality like the Tories
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But yes the fees are still payable
As are the nurseries' bills, staff costs, taxes etc etc
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This is Britain m2. There’s always a cheeky chappy or chappess about waiting to burgle your wallet for a basic service.
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clergs, for someone who doesn’t have children and seems quite content with that choice, you do seem to have quite an obsession with what you perceive as the iniquities inflicted on parents.
Some nurseries let you book by the day or week and if you’ve done that then you may be able to just not book for the period in question. But most charge by the month or term and most parents want to book in advance to ensure access. No you don’t get your money back for the reasons highlighted by Heffalump.
Most nurseries are on fairly tight margins, and falling a few child-weeks short in revenue would be the difference between red and black. Parents who have booked for a term, on the other hand, will have budgeted for a term and know therefore that they can afford to pay for a term, even if they don’t get 100% of the benefit in return.
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Yup. Our fees for full time were £2.5k per month and this was one of the cheaper nurseries.
we didn’t get any reduction in fee during any Covid closures - 4 months and then 8 periods of closure for 2 weeks at a time.
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I can confirm (based on the crux of my q) that at least some nurseries are absolutely raking in the big profit. I'm surprised the bargaining power lies so strongly in their hands. I concede my two weeks example above isn't that realistic but wondered if there was a limit beyond say three days when you'd expect a refund.
This all bothers me less than the profit in care homes, which is unreal. Die before care homes.
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Yup some really are and it’s a completely captive market.
i was very happy when we moved nobette out of the local chain to a local independent and happier still when she moved to a charitable pre-school.
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And now she’s at school 🏫 hurrah ! Just breakfast club and after school club and holiday camps to pay for
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you spend too much time giving a shite about this stuff m99
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It does rather make you think that that need to bring the process under state control. The economy is so utterly reliant on its effective functioning and yet we let cowboys run it.
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Laz - I have an interesting job. I like thinking about it.
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Heh! I certainly don’t. The job I mean.
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if nurseries are so profitable, maybe I should do that
someone I know from childhood runs one back home, tho, and I think its economics are fairly marginal
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It certainly benefits them to have users believe so.
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And certain external scrutinisers ofc.
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I don’t have kids but am always horrified when I hear about nursery fees. OBs example above is extraordinary. Some people are working just to afford the fees and ensure they remain in the workplace. Particularly impactive on women. I remember when I applied for silk reading the stats on career progression for female barristers. The numbers fall off a cliff at 10-15 years call due to childcare responsibilities. So women are often making a decision between kids and career. Often they’re working just to ay the fees but if they can’t afford that then they stop work. End result there’s a tiny number in silk. And then judicial positions. And it keeps repeating.
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Yes, £2.5k a month is absolutely insane. That is well within the range of simply being impossible for a lot of people. My friend told me he pays £800/month (one child, north-east) and I thought that was bad.
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And the impact goes well beyond the havers of young kids. How often do collective things go tits up because someone can't get reliable childcare.
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virtually never
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“It certainly benefits them to have users believe so.”
heh yeah it’s all a conspiracy
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Munchkins Syndrome by Poxy
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That was the cheap nursery if we had stayed at bright horizons it would have been £4.5k pcm in 2019 to have them both in Mon - Fri 8-6
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It’s much easier working full time and having kids at nursery than at school - which is the opposite of what everyone thinks.
school is a lot more involved, expects more of parents - home learning, evening meal etc and hours are whack so constant top up logistics to be organised and still a lot of spends - breakfast club, afterschool club and holiday camps - which for the 4 year olds only run til bloody 3 which is useful as a chocolate teapot if you’re supposed to work 9-5
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Junior school probably shifts as they get more independent but ks1 / infants the needs are high
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2.5k a month is absolutely normal.
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glad I don't live in London
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I’m questioning the value of London life chimp
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Laz if u run a department and never have to strategise around other people's childcare problems I am seriously dubious about your recruitment dynamics tbh.
I guess provincial living makes one complacent about fairness on these matters. And obviously less personally loaded.
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Of you run a department you can find a way not to worry about this - pay your team so much that they would never sweat this major inconvenience!
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It is one reason parents might hire a nanny although that might cost £60k including employer NI and auto enrolment pension rather than 24k x 2 for 2 babies full time in a London nursery.
On Labour's VAT on private school fees it is going to be very complicated because vast numbers of private schools have nursery age children so where does Labout do its cut off? Will it be age 4 or 5?
In Tony Blair's day we got £600 off the twins' first private school fees as the twins were 4 and there was some kind of voucher thing probably what is now the "free" 15 hours (30 hours if you earn less) and I thought it was quite funny that the first political party to introduce a kind of voucher to set against private school fees was the Labour party.
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Gr88 question. If only we had some existing mechanism to determine the age at which a child moves from pre-school to proper school. The sphinx would have a hard time figuring this one out.
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Is there any evidence that having more parents of pre-school age children working full time will reduce inequality?
I ask because I think that over the past 40 years in the UK the percentage of parents of pre-school age children working full time has increased and everyone tells me that inequality has also increased over that period.
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Unless you make buckets of cash you’re fvcked. Same as ever. Soz. Hth.
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