Guildford Train Murder

Any thoughts on this live case? Reporting from the Old Bailey this week has made interesting reading...

The guy who was stabbed should have ignored / downplayed the initial aggression from the coked up knife wielding nutcase.

There's merit in staying away from confrontation with strange people on trains.

You don't mess wi'a drugged up knifey, baaa tat.  not unless yes a northerner wi viking blood in yer veins, a hell hound of surprisingly diminutive proportions, a free bus pass and an ice cold tin o'carlsberg.

Especially if during the conversation they pick up their phone and without dialing tell the voices they can hear they're going to kill you.

People may think I am mad but the more I read about this the more I feel sorry for the perpetrator (obviously goes without saying I feel more sorry for the victim etc). 

 

It seems that he was very conscious he was in a situation that could result in him reacting in a bad way and he was trying to escape the situation.

its like he was asking for help in a weird sort of way

 

1. trying to avoid the situation

2. Physically moving away fro the situation

3. telling the victim he was hearing voices

 

it doesnt justify what happened but it just makes it deeply sad

Why was he carrying a knife then?  To protect the public from the danger of the voices in his head?

Perhaps he was carrying a knife because he has mental health problems and felt in danger. Very sad case.

It goes to show that most murders are desperately sad grubby ends to lives.

I'm following the case of the murder of of the MGS scholarship boy stabbed to death in the poshest bit of Manchester -  turns out it was (one way or another) an argument between three friends who'd just tried and failed to rob a drug dealer.

 

Ok, so what about if something like this happened

If you got talking to this guy about him providing something, which he said he could do but demanded payment upfront. He then said he had to find someone as he didn't have it himself, so you both start walking. As it becomes apparent that you're just walking and walking, perhaps you've done a couple of laps by this point, you say this isn't happening is it and demand your money back. When he denies the return of your cash and an argument starts he gets his phone out and tells the imaginary interlocutor that the voices in his head are telling him he's going to kill you. If instead of dropping it you try to grab your money back off him and he then stabs you to death, was it your fault or is he mentally ill or just a straight mugger murderer?

This is simple, work backwards...

...Darren Pencille killed Lee Pomeroy. He doesn't deny it... ...his defence is self-defence.

Is it proportionate to defend yourself from confrontational verbal challenges by stabbing the person to death? 

I agree Fluffy that self defence is unlikely to work.

What concerns me is not that his self defence plea is likely to fail but that the mental health aspect becomes relevant to sentencing. Surely if his defence fails he's a murderer and should be treated as one, albeit how he is treated in prison should take account of the voices he says he hears. I'd have him in solitary confinement rather than subject another human being to the risk of violence for example.

Also have you seen the state of his girlfriend?

No wonder he was on edge.

Cry me a river for the killer who stabbed someone 18 times in front of his teenage son. Wasn't hearing enough voices to hand himself into the police but legged it to his gf sharpish. Absolute state of some of the bleeding hearts on here. 

"Is it proportionate to defend yourself from confrontational verbal challenges by stabbing the person to death?"

What do you think?

Yes ebitda, Tangentboy - his defence is that he did it in self-defence, nothing about diminished responsibility in the reports.

There are plenty of nutters on Guildford to London trains.

Mentioning no names.

I keep a low profile.

Wilfred:

Cry me a river for the killer who stabbed someone 18 times in front of his teenage son. Wasn't hearing enough voices to hand himself into the police but legged it to his gf sharpish. Absolute state of some of the bleeding hearts on here. 

 

the thing that is so offensive ( I dont mean this really seriously, I dont really give a F other than in ROFland) about this statement is that you are part of the freaking problem

 

Having sympathy and empathising with other people isnt to justify there actions - it is to understand them. If we spent more time trying to understand other people the world would be a MUCH better place

 

Your attitude goes no way to improving the situation - in fact whilst it may comfort you to just see it as a plain case of him being a "baddie" it actually is part of the freaking problem!

 

If I were to really want to fuck this conversation up I would say that attitude is exactly what has led to Brexit.

 

although...I do understand where you are coming from

 

Happy friday  

I doubt very much that those “feeling sorry” for the stabber would feel much less if he happened to be white

Archibald you are talking utter utter horseshit. If we were going to link this to Brexit I would argue that your head-in-the-sand uber liberal nonsense is what led to half the country feeling they’d entered a parallel universe. 

I don’t need to understand why the guy did it. He did it because he’s a cunt who decided to carry a knife. And I know he’s a cunt because he stabbed someone 18 times in front of his son. Not in a random way, but because he’d had an argument with the fella. And he didn’t then give himself up, he ran to his girlfriend’s house. So he’s a double cunt. 

So I repeat, cry me a river you sanctimonious prick. 

I'm sure we'll be understanding when Wilfred losing his shit one day and goes on a rampage round the office.

The guy should be sent to somewhere where they can treat his problems rather than sticking him in jail untreated to come out and do it again.

Don't worry about leaping to defend bien pensants Sails

More importantly ,how's the woman hunt going? 

Always found South Coast sailing schools a useful pick up area 

I really want to hear the country rendition of this story with a slide scale on the gibson and duxta on harmonies

Tarqs you bloomin great LAD - I already knew about all the nurses but lady sailors n'all 

Like I've said before I think you can split most of society into two ways of interpreting the rule. Of course I don't think he's a "nice" guy and still blame him but that doesn't stop me being able to empathise ..seems you can't manage that but guess you have low EQ

 

Feel sorry for you 

 

Heh

He's killed a dad in front of his son over what witnesses have called a trivial argument by stabbing him loads and loads of times and then fleeing the scene rather than report it to the police

in addition to your bizarre comments and stance on this thread, you've made an entirely unjustified and unexplained link to BREXIT. You adamantly refuse to answer why also. 

Feel sorry for you 

Look its really simple.

 

I feel able to distinguish between empathy and blame, therefore I can feel two things simultaneously and those two things are: 

1. Appalled and disgusted by the actions of this armed man who decided to murder another human being whilst his son was in the other carriage.

AND

2. Feel sorry for someone who clearly has mental health issues and seemed to have been to some extent aware of what he was about to do and trying to move away from the situation.

 

Its really not complicated but the fact that I feel 2. Doesnt impact 1. Neither does it stop me putting blame in the right place neither does it stop me thinking this man should go to jail for a long, if not indefinite, period of time.

 

In relation to my point re Brexit again I feel its really simple. An inability to understand and empathise for other peoples situations regardless of whether you agree with their actions is dangerous and I feel is a contributory fator to the division we have and are facing as a result of the Brexit debate.

 

More important than arguing for leave or remain is to try to empathise and understand the other sides position.

 

People get confused because they think Empathise = Justify. to me, at least, it means that I try to understand it. Ultimately whether peoples actions are right or wrong they still have a causation path and I think trying to look at that is important. 

 

Anyway this is way too much real chat for ROF so ill probably retreat from here. 

 

 

Similarly it's also possible to hold the view that you're sorry for victim but that if he'd turned the other cheek and not pursued the argument he'd probably still be alive.

The black man barged pass,, making some sneering comment

So now if you object to this you can expect to be stabbed 80 times?

You guys need to visit Baltimore and Detroit to toughen you up 

Zero Gravitas - I am also following the Hale Barnes murder. Horrified to read that the local resident who attended who is a heart surgeon is the doctor who looked after my Mum after her heart op last year. A LOVELY man. He was telling my sis how proud he was of his son at MGS. Hoping he was not involved.

No Bernstein you say something then take your seat rather than aggressively following them into the next carriage and continuing the argument after it is apparent the guy is off his rocker and has threatened to kill you.

Ever heard discretion is the better part of valour?  There's a time to pursue things and a time where it's not worth it.

'Ever heard discretion is the better part of valour?  There's a time to pursue things and a time where it's not worth it.'

That part. Period.

BREXIT is entirely irrelevant to this but at least you have explained your rationale for referring to it.

As irrelevant this isn't the thread for it, however all I would say is one side of that divide is castigated as stupid and racist an worthy of no respect or further consideration of their views. This is, and always has been dangerous. Simply claiming to have empathy and concern for the causal link doesn't mean you deviate from the key tenet of Remain, which seems to be that you are one side of debate from which side you are utterly certain you have the moral high ground. 

Turns out the defendant has a record of previous stabbing convictions, at least 2

I would have to concur with Jack Nance’s analysis

I find the voices thing dubious.  Speaking as someone who hears voices, in that sort of situation they don’t have long drawn out conversations with you, they issue command statements.  “Kill him now!” Would be about the extent of it.  Fortunately I know that they are hallucinations and have learned to just ignore them.

 

Is it not possible that he has a different experience with his voices?

It is, but voices do follow certain patterns regardless of what is causing them (in my case it’s been established that it was a head injury long ago that somehow got triggered, whereas in my friend’s case he suffers from bipolar but the pattern of how they communicate to us is virtually identical) - that’s how psychiatric specialists can usually tell if someone is making it up. 

I appreciate my comment is very anecdotal but a group I attend which is part of the hearing voices network indicates that our experiences are very similar to most others.  Also, if suffering an anxiety, like he clearly was, then the voices (which after all are a representation and reflection of your own state of mind) will use very few words.

Are Teclis's imaginary voices real imaginary voices, or imaginary imaginary voices?

[/rof doubter]

Nice bit of victim blaming there then Jack Nance and APNHB

Doesn't all of this suggest that he should have been somewhere being treated for his mental issues rather than strolling round struggling to deal with everyday life?

Well, it is reported that in 2010 he pleaded guilty for wounding with intent. I'm not a criminal lawyer, so not about to verify this diligently, however a simple Google search indicates that offence itself could carry a life sentence.  Thereafter it is reported he had a second knife crime offence last year.

All in all, seems like he should have been away in a safe facility and this victim should not have met him on any train to face this threat.

Having looked at the medication he is reported to have been on, namely antidepressants, anti anxiety and anti psychotics, it strikes me that these voices he claimed are really fictitious - either that or his specialist needs to be sued for negligence.  When you hear voices you get given way more stuff than that to take.  Mood stabilisers, tranquillisers etc.