They let men in. The changing rooms are not secure so men can go in to have a w**k over teenage girls getting bra fittings. They pander to nonces. I'm going to JL.
Don't most retailers have existing unisex fitting rooms and they all have private doors/ curtains or is it usual for ladies to be able to watch each other put bras on?
I cant say I have ever been bothered by a strange gentleman while I try on a new pair of trousers...
Not really sure what gender has to do with this at all.
I would feel massively uncomfortable trying on underwear in changing rooms where men were wandering around, doors or no. If i was a teenage girl turn that discomfort up one hundred fold.
HTH.
But Stardust hasn't that been the case for yonks? I accept that M&S may have gents and ladies on different floors but smaller retailers will just have a few unisex changing rooms.
Lingerie changing rooms tend to be separated out and behind the lingerie itself (see M&S and John Lewis). Please provide examples of these smaller retailers where that isn’t the case because i haven’t come across them...
Well don’t make sweeping statements if you can’t back it up, Dux. It’s so easy to say “oh but this is how it is in some places” but not actually say where those are.
The majority of people attacking Clergs on here are blokes who don’t really understand, apparently.
Thanks ??? - I am sure you can find men too if you search hard enough.
Most of the clothes shops on Oxford Street will have a single corner designated to trying things on that is not differentiated by gender. Barbour or Gant for example if you need them. As I have said above I appreciate lingerie may be treated differently.
M&S has said people should use the changing room in which they feel most comfortable. Which I think is supposed to be a nice cosy statement aimed at people confused as to whether they are a man or a women. What it actually does is remove a safe space for women because pervy men can now say they feel most comfortable in the women's changing room and that is fully in line with M&S policy.
Save that M&S confirmed that all such changing facilities have individual locked cubicles monitored by staff. So, apart from staff potentially breaching privacy, what is the concern?
What makes a safe space Nexis - genuine question...
Also, where should a trans person go to get fitted for a bra given it is no doubt quite a specialist skill which I'd imagine isn't in the remit at a male changing room...
Tbh getting fitted for a bra is not all it's cracked up to be even if you are actually shaped like a woman. I'm not sure I would rely on Sue who works in the M&S lingerie department to find the right sized bra for a trans woman. They'd be better off just taking their measurements and then ordering a ton of bras online to try at home, aided by videos about how to choose the right sized bra that trans people have probably posted on YouTube.
I have no issue with a man wearing or trying on bras in a fitting room next to mine, just like I have no issue with men on the tube or bus. I don't know if they are pervs, so don't see how that plays a role.
Anyone, male or female, trying to peek at me in said fitting room, gets a punch on the nose. If you want to stare at my feet below the curtain, you are welcome to do so.
There was no peeking or perving going on at all. Ms Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells was upset that whilst queuing for an (individual) changing room with her daughter at M&S she was standing next to a man holding a selection of bras he intended to try on.
When she complained that such a horribly “kinky” sight could mentally scar her 15-year-old daughter (who has presumably spent 2019 googling pictures of Harry Styles wearing high heels) she was rightly told to do one by the staff.
Probably Tricky. It’s more surprising when a pop artist says they’re straight these days. I bet they’re all at it like rabbits behind the scenes at the VMAs.
Don't changing rooms all have individual changing cubicles? M&S here has one changing room with private booths which have locking doors. It's not like a leisure centre in the 80s with everyone changing at benches.
Assuming this is not the case then I can't see why on earth M&S would advertise that men are welcome in their female changing rooms, although what the feministas always fail to make clear in these cases is how they propose to police who is a man and who is a woman.
I mean, last time I was in a clothing store with sex-separated changing rooms, they weren't checking people at the door for unlawful possession of a c0ck.
Anyway, the only circumstances in which I would ever boycott M&S would be if they stopped selling loads of stuff I want to buy, particularly food but also clothes.
it's not just a question of whether or not men are perverted, it's just that a lot of women find it uncomfortable to be semi-naked in the vicinity of men they don't know.
Oh jaysus. Am I the only woman operating under the basic assumption that bar very rare exceptions not everyone is out to shag the people in their immediate line of sight, or perv on them or w**k off to them?
Linda: this has nothing to do with pervs. The real pervs are a small percentage of people (men and women). These are just men who want to try on lingerie.
The outrage about men wearing women’s lingerie feels a bit odd to me. Plenty of secret transvestites who enjoy girly underwear without it ever being known. Not me, but I bet rof has a few *nods to wang knowingly*
Separate cubicles that lock would be fine but not curtains, that’s just asking for trouble.
I don't need any sort of points. What I would like is for people to get a bit of perspective. You are worried about pervs. There's not many pervs in the world. Thankfully. I am quite happy for a guy to try on lingerie in an entirely different room like I am happy to use a loo with a closed door next to a guy using the next loo with a closed door.
Well they can do it in the male changing room if they must
part of the thrill of the process for these men is the invasion of female spaces and knowing that they are close to naked / partially clothed women, and that those women may be uncomfortable with their presence. I don't consent to being part of some random's fetish
WTAF. The point is about trans people, not just men wanting the thrill of trying on a bra. Trans people are not in any way trans for the thrill of invading female spaces...
Anotherday, given that self id (which is marks and Spencer's stared policy) means you cannot challenge anyone wanting to use the female changing rooms, how are you planning on telling apart a trans women from a cross dressing bloke?
if you cannot challenge anyone, then in they all come
Linda - I assume you are aware that trans people (and transvestites, because it seems like we’re just using the terms interchangeably here) are not all secret sex offenders waiting to perv on or assault the nearest woman? Because it seems from your replies like you are not factoring that in.
It’s arguments like yours that prevented gay people from being primary school teachers (or even secondary school teachers) for years because it was assumed they were all paedos looking to abuse little boys and therefore should be banned from being near them.
The dude just wanted to try on some bras, on his own, in a changing room. What’s the issue?
I'm quite sick of women being told to be nice, and shove up
men who want to try on lingerie can do it at home, or in the men's changing room. And if they feel uncomfortable doing that, that's a problem men have with other men. You lot fix it.
ditto violence against trans women - who assaults trans women? Men do. You lot "be nice"
Almost half of trans prisoners are sex offenders, compared to 19% of the general population (almost all of whom are male).
But leaving that aside, I didn't specify trans I specified creepy men. Who exist by the bucket load. Men hide cameras in toilets to video women taking a piss. Men take photographs up women's skirts on the tube. Men video themselves w**king at work.
The 'wrong un' in your link was a man queuing with bras in his hand. Calm down dear - don't get your knickers (or bra) in a twist - I'm quite confident all these perv men aren't desperately seeking you out for a pervy peek...
in fact it doesn't work at all anymore, because the adoption of "ok boomer" by a middle aged lawyer shows the retort has defo jumped the shark some time back
Well, I think it’s bloody offensive to equate transvestites with men who secretly film women in changing rooms. But then only one of us actually equated the things we’re accusing each other of, and it wasn’t me.
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why are you doing this?
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Because of their policy of letting men into the lingerie changing rooms
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Haven't seen their Chrimbo adverts. It seems a churlish reason to boycott the anyway.
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Crikey. This doesn't sound like a reason to boycott.
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zzzz
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Wait - what? Is this a "my wife wanted me in to check her arse" or is it an "anyone can do it" thing. My lunch plans are in abeyance.
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I'm surprised at Laz's indifference to this appealing development.
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It sounds like a plot line from Are You Being Served?
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It is a “Clergs having an unneccessary pop at trans people because she is bored” thing I imagine (haven’t seen the story)
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Oh. I see.
Disappointing.
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Don’t all people under the age of 103 boycott m&s?
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No, I get my jumpers there. And socks.
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where do you buy food if you don't go to M&S Kaul?
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yes, because M&S is the only food seller in the world.
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I would be very disappointed to learn that 3-ducks didn’t shop there.
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travelling to the other side of the world to buy food doesn't really make sense though, when M&S is down the road
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Do you live in a one supermarket village outside fookington-on-nomates?
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What did I say about trans people?
They let men in. The changing rooms are not secure so men can go in to have a w**k over teenage girls getting bra fittings. They pander to nonces. I'm going to JL.
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Why can't you grasp the difference between transgender and sex offender? Do you work for m&s policy?
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Do you have to take a ticket and wait like at the cheese counter?
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one can often be both
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"The changing rooms are not secure so men can go in to have a w**k over teenage girls getting bra fittings"
You know I think that even though they may permit men into the area they might have a tiny bit of an issue with this. I
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I cannot begin to imagine how exhausted I'd be if I had to spend even an hour as outraged as Clergz constantly is.
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I bet I'm calmer than you
I don't entirely give a shit about anything
But I'm not spending my lazily earned cash in a paedo-friendly emporium
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Ffs
For clarity, the story appears to be here and - shockingly! - has absolutely nothing to do with M&S being “paedo-friendly”.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/marks-spencer-changing-rooms-gender-women-men-a9180391.html
And now I am done engaging with this awfulness.
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The independent website gave my phone an std
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what laz said at 11.46am
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Hell will freeze over before I boycott M&S.
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Clergham u do realise that this is what equality looks like right? Men have equal rights to w**k in a changing room as women do. Pls deal.
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https://www.pongcheese.co.uk/buy/golden-cenarth/
mwah x
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Don't most retailers have existing unisex fitting rooms and they all have private doors/ curtains or is it usual for ladies to be able to watch each other put bras on?
I cant say I have ever been bothered by a strange gentleman while I try on a new pair of trousers...
Not really sure what gender has to do with this at all.
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I would feel massively uncomfortable trying on underwear in changing rooms where men were wandering around, doors or no. If i was a teenage girl turn that discomfort up one hundred fold.
HTH.
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But Stardust hasn't that been the case for yonks? I accept that M&S may have gents and ladies on different floors but smaller retailers will just have a few unisex changing rooms.
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Lingerie changing rooms tend to be separated out and behind the lingerie itself (see M&S and John Lewis). Please provide examples of these smaller retailers where that isn’t the case because i haven’t come across them...
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"Please provide examples"
For real??
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Maybe I am thinking of non-lingerie. Cant say I have ever had to try on lingerie myself.
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Well don’t make sweeping statements if you can’t back it up, Dux. It’s so easy to say “oh but this is how it is in some places” but not actually say where those are.
The majority of people attacking Clergs on here are blokes who don’t really understand, apparently.
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What about the women who have suffered violence at the hands of women? What about lesbians?
I demand that every store offering changing room facilities have panic rooms for all customers to utilise as changing facilities...
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Thanks ??? - I am sure you can find men too if you search hard enough.
Most of the clothes shops on Oxford Street will have a single corner designated to trying things on that is not differentiated by gender. Barbour or Gant for example if you need them. As I have said above I appreciate lingerie may be treated differently.
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M&S has said people should use the changing room in which they feel most comfortable. Which I think is supposed to be a nice cosy statement aimed at people confused as to whether they are a man or a women. What it actually does is remove a safe space for women because pervy men can now say they feel most comfortable in the women's changing room and that is fully in line with M&S policy.
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Genuine question - is the women's changing room communal?
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Save that M&S confirmed that all such changing facilities have individual locked cubicles monitored by staff. So, apart from staff potentially breaching privacy, what is the concern?
What makes a safe space Nexis - genuine question...
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I only buy lingerie from Rigby & Peller, but what men don't seem to understand that bra fitting is a very involved process and does require privacy.
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Judy et al - would you feel more comfortable with a remote chance a bloke may see you getting fitted OR being fitted by a lesbian sechs pest...
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Also, where should a trans person go to get fitted for a bra given it is no doubt quite a specialist skill which I'd imagine isn't in the remit at a male changing room...
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Tbh getting fitted for a bra is not all it's cracked up to be even if you are actually shaped like a woman. I'm not sure I would rely on Sue who works in the M&S lingerie department to find the right sized bra for a trans woman. They'd be better off just taking their measurements and then ordering a ton of bras online to try at home, aided by videos about how to choose the right sized bra that trans people have probably posted on YouTube.
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I have no issue with a man wearing or trying on bras in a fitting room next to mine, just like I have no issue with men on the tube or bus. I don't know if they are pervs, so don't see how that plays a role.
Anyone, male or female, trying to peek at me in said fitting room, gets a punch on the nose. If you want to stare at my feet below the curtain, you are welcome to do so.
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You do know ML's going to be all over that, don't you, Woo?
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I'll wear my best Birkenstocks for him!
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Tricky you are shameless you know how male British lawyers invariably have a thing about feet.
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Shame I don't have a thing about British lawyers.
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Birkenstocks are vom
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For those who didn’t read the article:
There was no peeking or perving going on at all. Ms Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells was upset that whilst queuing for an (individual) changing room with her daughter at M&S she was standing next to a man holding a selection of bras he intended to try on.
When she complained that such a horribly “kinky” sight could mentally scar her 15-year-old daughter (who has presumably spent 2019 googling pictures of Harry Styles wearing high heels) she was rightly told to do one by the staff.
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Didn't Harry come out as bi in his last - quite racy - video?
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Probably Tricky. It’s more surprising when a pop artist says they’re straight these days. I bet they’re all at it like rabbits behind the scenes at the VMAs.
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Like lawyers after 20:00 or at Xmas drinks you mean? Funny. You'd almost think they're human.
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The irony of Rhamnousia’s 12.03 is breathtaking.
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There is too much hateful transphobia on this board
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I had a sarn from m&s yesterday. Didn't see any boobs tbf, whether on women, girls or those in various stages of transition.
Triple selection and a fruit salad with a diet coke, as it goes
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Really?? I've just lost my USP.
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USP? There are a few of us on here I think
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Trotters are functional.
But then again I’m not a lawyer, so perhaps that proves hotnow’s point,
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Don't changing rooms all have individual changing cubicles? M&S here has one changing room with private booths which have locking doors. It's not like a leisure centre in the 80s with everyone changing at benches.
Assuming this is not the case then I can't see why on earth M&S would advertise that men are welcome in their female changing rooms, although what the feministas always fail to make clear in these cases is how they propose to police who is a man and who is a woman.
I mean, last time I was in a clothing store with sex-separated changing rooms, they weren't checking people at the door for unlawful possession of a c0ck.
Anyway, the only circumstances in which I would ever boycott M&S would be if they stopped selling loads of stuff I want to buy, particularly food but also clothes.
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" If you want to stare at my feet below the curtain, you are welcome to do so."
Surprised no one took this forward.
Woo will be the x-rated model in Saudi....too much to handle
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there’s always f&m
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"Don't changing rooms all have individual changing cubicles? M&S here has one changing room with private booths which have locking doors"
no they don't, most have curtains
and the number of perverts who have covertly filmed women in changing rooms is not nil
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exactly, and that was before they let in the men....
Oh...
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Also the reviews by men on m&s lingerie website is gross
and no, they aren't reviewing as sexy time gifts. They're trying them on
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No tricky it wasn't before they let men in
"men are perverted anyway" is not really an argument in favour of mixed sex facilities, is it
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I'm not saying men are perverted
I'm saying the perverts will always find away
but how many perverts are there really?
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it's not just a question of whether or not men are perverted, it's just that a lot of women find it uncomfortable to be semi-naked in the vicinity of men they don't know.
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and I do include men who identify as women in the category of men, I am afraid.
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perversion is a question of definition, but I agree that people should feel comfortable
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What Judy said
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Tricky do you expect the nursery your child attends to do DBS checks? or do you think oh well why bother, nonces will find a way
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Oh jaysus. Am I the only woman operating under the basic assumption that bar very rare exceptions not everyone is out to shag the people in their immediate line of sight, or perv on them or w**k off to them?
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well, you are Dutch, so perhaps you have different modesty levels?
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Why can't it just be that women on the whole don't want to share changing rooms with men?
why are you so keen on handing female spaces over? Do you need cool girl points this badly?
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it's not about thinking that every man is about to w**k over you, it's about a woman's own feelings of modesty.
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Linda: this has nothing to do with pervs. The real pervs are a small percentage of people (men and women). These are just men who want to try on lingerie.
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presumably there could be non gender specific changing rooms in which those who feel comfortable (men,women, trans) could use. Wouldn't that work?
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The outrage about men wearing women’s lingerie feels a bit odd to me. Plenty of secret transvestites who enjoy girly underwear without it ever being known. Not me, but I bet rof has a few *nods to wang knowingly*
Separate cubicles that lock would be fine but not curtains, that’s just asking for trouble.
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I don't need any sort of points. What I would like is for people to get a bit of perspective. You are worried about pervs. There's not many pervs in the world. Thankfully. I am quite happy for a guy to try on lingerie in an entirely different room like I am happy to use a loo with a closed door next to a guy using the next loo with a closed door.
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Well they can do it in the male changing room if they must
part of the thrill of the process for these men is the invasion of female spaces and knowing that they are close to naked / partially clothed women, and that those women may be uncomfortable with their presence. I don't consent to being part of some random's fetish
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I agree ML. I think the whole issue needs a separate approach. Traditional men / women and gender neutral. Goes for loos too
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I'm quite worried about jizz stains on things I try on too tbh
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jizz stains on stuff in shops? Does that actually happen?
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Warning - gross dude pics
https://twitter.com/js60395957/status/1194172034554744832?s=21
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Yes ML see my link
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WTAF. The point is about trans people, not just men wanting the thrill of trying on a bra. Trans people are not in any way trans for the thrill of invading female spaces...
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eeww.
Hopefully this is pretty rare
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Anotherday, given that self id (which is marks and Spencer's stared policy) means you cannot challenge anyone wanting to use the female changing rooms, how are you planning on telling apart a trans women from a cross dressing bloke?
if you cannot challenge anyone, then in they all come
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Linda - I assume you are aware that trans people (and transvestites, because it seems like we’re just using the terms interchangeably here) are not all secret sex offenders waiting to perv on or assault the nearest woman? Because it seems from your replies like you are not factoring that in.
It’s arguments like yours that prevented gay people from being primary school teachers (or even secondary school teachers) for years because it was assumed they were all paedos looking to abuse little boys and therefore should be banned from being near them.
The dude just wanted to try on some bras, on his own, in a changing room. What’s the issue?
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No it's not arguments like mine that do anything of the sort. I haven't said a word about trans people except to ask how you will tell the difference
and it's bloody offensive to equate homosexuality with people getting off on trying on invading female spaces like the massive wrong un in my link
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I'm quite sick of women being told to be nice, and shove up
men who want to try on lingerie can do it at home, or in the men's changing room. And if they feel uncomfortable doing that, that's a problem men have with other men. You lot fix it.
ditto violence against trans women - who assaults trans women? Men do. You lot "be nice"
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Ok, boomer.
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Almost half of trans prisoners are sex offenders, compared to 19% of the general population (almost all of whom are male).
But leaving that aside, I didn't specify trans I specified creepy men. Who exist by the bucket load. Men hide cameras in toilets to video women taking a piss. Men take photographs up women's skirts on the tube. Men video themselves w**king at work.
Not all men, obv, but far more than women.
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The 'wrong un' in your link was a man queuing with bras in his hand. Calm down dear - don't get your knickers (or bra) in a twist - I'm quite confident all these perv men aren't desperately seeking you out for a pervy peek...
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That doesn't work on someone younger than you tom
in fact it doesn't work at all anymore, because the adoption of "ok boomer" by a middle aged lawyer shows the retort has defo jumped the shark some time back
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Well, I think it’s bloody offensive to equate transvestites with men who secretly film women in changing rooms. But then only one of us actually equated the things we’re accusing each other of, and it wasn’t me.
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