Well before I became a lawyer I read of a judge in a rape case who made a similar remark - like, 'there are some things you can do to reduce the risk of becoming a victim of rape', and the media (no social media then) was full of people yelling 'Why don't you tell men not to rape, you sexist pig?' and the like, and I remember thinking - well, we do tell men not to rape, there's a law about it, but there are probably some young women who could benefit from this advice (although, query whether it would ever come to the attention of such women).
It rather implies that the only people who get raped are those that drink to insensibility, ignoring all the other cases of rape that occur when the victim is not passed out drunk. So there is that.
And for the rest, yes ok safety advice is one thing, but you have to question the motivations for saying it. Does anyone, ever, in the media really believe that women will go and get less pissed because some old white dude suggests it?
It does clearly play into the theme anyone raped is it at least partially responsible. I also seem to remember not that long ago an Italian judge finding a man not guilty of rape because the victim was wearing jeans, so there is a specific cultural angle to the story as well.
My mother warned me of the dangers of drinking too much and I imagine mothers (and fathers) have plenty to say on the subject now. It’s about prevention rather than cure. Yes there is a law against rape but thats not much use after the fact.
No one is saying blaming the victim would be anyone’s first reaction or even any reaction but taking personal responsibility to avoid certain situations is simply a matter of common sense
Maybe men should take personal responsibility by not going to places where there is alcohol, avoiding the risk of one of them raping someone who has been drinking?
I know that sounds ridiculous, but this shouldn't only work one way, that's why lots of women find the comments offensive.
It's always about how we can avoid being a victim, never about how we can avoid having dangerous men on the streets.
There's a difference I think between comments like "carry a rape alarm, don't leave drinks unattended, don't leave your friends", and basically saying if you want to avoid rape then stay home and don't do anything normal like getting drunk.
If someone said to me " to avoid being mugged don't walk down dark side streets alone, stick to main roads" I'd think that was a bit more useful that "don't leave your house at night" or "never carry a wallet or a phone".
The objection to advice like this is stems from ‘don’t wear short skirts’ and ‘don’t lead him on’ which were the classic victim blaming comments. Those are intolerable as advice on any level.
It does clearly play into the theme anyone raped is it at least partially responsible.
No! That's exactly the point. It's not victim blaming, anymore than telling a class of children to 'stay away from the bunsen burner when it is lit' is blaming the kid who just went off to have his burns treated.
It's always about how we can avoid being a victim, never about how we can avoid having dangerous men on the streets.
This is a simple matter of logic. Men who are proven to be dangerous will be incarcerated (at least, they are when the criminal justice system is adequately funded) and the theory is that they will be less likely/unlikely to re-offend. Those presumptions are dangers.
But in the life of a young single woman, she can do NOTHING to keep "dangerous men" off the streets. She can, however, take steps to lessen the possibility of being a victim.
It is all problematic when you have - things - like Levi Bellfield on the loose. Since he could be anywhere anytime and set out to assault and kill, no advice (apart from 'never leave the house') would have helped.
But there aren't many Bellfields around, in comparison to the number of men who might go to far and cross the line into assault or rape because they themselves are drunk and they have persuaded themselves that the woman they are with is receptive.
Obviously in the long run we want to change men's behaviour but, as the wise man said, in the long run we're all dead.
but there has been a trend in recent years that any sort of basic safety advice is perceived as victim blaming.
No, there's a trend in recent years for us to say, unless its your child or family member where it is perfectly acceptable for you to provide guidance on risk mitigation, don't comment on how we need to keep ourselves safe from predators and instead focus on the acts of the predators.
But in the life of a young single woman, she can do NOTHING to keep "dangerous men" off the streets.
It's not just her job though. In terms of numbers, we prosecute fook all predatory men, even when they're famous footballers and the entire country heard the evidence.
The extreme cases like Belfield are very exceptional.
the number of men who might go to far and cross the line into assault or rape because they themselves are drunk
These are the real problem, very few of them will ever go to prison, but we're much more likely to run into them.
I don't think it's bad advice to mind your own safety and not drink too much to avoid being a victim. It is offensive that the helpful advice is never directed at men, who could mind themselves and drink less to avoid being a perpetrator.
Out of interest, did the person making the comment that the OP is referring to say anything about the fact that people should respect boundaries and always seek consent?
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Link? No idea what these comments are but there has been a trend in recent years that any sort of basic safety advice is perceived as victim blaming.
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It’s a quote from Tonio Huntio.
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Well before I became a lawyer I read of a judge in a rape case who made a similar remark - like, 'there are some things you can do to reduce the risk of becoming a victim of rape', and the media (no social media then) was full of people yelling 'Why don't you tell men not to rape, you sexist pig?' and the like, and I remember thinking - well, we do tell men not to rape, there's a law about it, but there are probably some young women who could benefit from this advice (although, query whether it would ever come to the attention of such women).
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It rather implies that the only people who get raped are those that drink to insensibility, ignoring all the other cases of rape that occur when the victim is not passed out drunk. So there is that.
And for the rest, yes ok safety advice is one thing, but you have to question the motivations for saying it. Does anyone, ever, in the media really believe that women will go and get less pissed because some old white dude suggests it?
It does clearly play into the theme anyone raped is it at least partially responsible. I also seem to remember not that long ago an Italian judge finding a man not guilty of rape because the victim was wearing jeans, so there is a specific cultural angle to the story as well.
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I think it was a female judge who was pilloried for saying that.
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My mother warned me of the dangers of drinking too much and I imagine mothers (and fathers) have plenty to say on the subject now. It’s about prevention rather than cure. Yes there is a law against rape but thats not much use after the fact.
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If your neighbour gets burgled, is your first reaction to think "they should have had an alarm"?
If your friend gets punched at a bus stop, is your first reaction to think "shouldn't have been out late"?
If your friend drowns, is your first reaction to think "shouldn't have been swimming in the sea"?
Victim blaming comments only seem to be made in relation to sexual assault and rape cases. It's time to stop tolerating them.
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No one is saying blaming the victim would be anyone’s first reaction or even any reaction but taking personal responsibility to avoid certain situations is simply a matter of common sense
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It’s just common sense advice that anyone would give their daughter.
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Maybe men should take personal responsibility by not going to places where there is alcohol, avoiding the risk of one of them raping someone who has been drinking?
I know that sounds ridiculous, but this shouldn't only work one way, that's why lots of women find the comments offensive.
It's always about how we can avoid being a victim, never about how we can avoid having dangerous men on the streets.
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There's a difference I think between comments like "carry a rape alarm, don't leave drinks unattended, don't leave your friends", and basically saying if you want to avoid rape then stay home and don't do anything normal like getting drunk.
If someone said to me " to avoid being mugged don't walk down dark side streets alone, stick to main roads" I'd think that was a bit more useful that "don't leave your house at night" or "never carry a wallet or a phone".
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The objection to advice like this is stems from ‘don’t wear short skirts’ and ‘don’t lead him on’ which were the classic victim blaming comments. Those are intolerable as advice on any level.
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unfortunately we have to deal with the imperfect world we have, rather than the one we would like to have
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Well yeah, seems fairly obvious that ppl should take care not to drown. In fact I’d say it’s good advice to take care in the sea.
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Possibly men and women shouldn’t get drunk in proximity to one another, if they can’t be relied upon to respect boundaries.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/italy-meloni-partner-ra…
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I have no idea of the context of the OP. However that’s not going to stop me taking a position on it, because this is ROF. Stand by.
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OP talking nonsense
The idea that being drunk makes rape your fault is just idiotic and is only believed by gammons
Yes everyone could (and should) take steps to improve personal security but that doesn't mean victims are at fault
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No but the second or third thought of tjeir insurer might be "did they leave the doors wide open?" Poor analogy.
That said, the drunkeness thing is nonsense.
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Davos I have not expressed a view yet!
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I feel like there are common sense elements in what he means but not how he said it
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No! That's exactly the point. It's not victim blaming, anymore than telling a class of children to 'stay away from the bunsen burner when it is lit' is blaming the kid who just went off to have his burns treated.
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This is a simple matter of logic. Men who are proven to be dangerous will be incarcerated (at least, they are when the criminal justice system is adequately funded) and the theory is that they will be less likely/unlikely to re-offend. Those presumptions are dangers.
But in the life of a young single woman, she can do NOTHING to keep "dangerous men" off the streets. She can, however, take steps to lessen the possibility of being a victim.
It is all problematic when you have - things - like Levi Bellfield on the loose. Since he could be anywhere anytime and set out to assault and kill, no advice (apart from 'never leave the house') would have helped.
But there aren't many Bellfields around, in comparison to the number of men who might go to far and cross the line into assault or rape because they themselves are drunk and they have persuaded themselves that the woman they are with is receptive.
Obviously in the long run we want to change men's behaviour but, as the wise man said, in the long run we're all dead.
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I think Warren has analysed this issue well at conceptual level.
No idea how this would apply to the remarks in question and CBA reading the story to find out
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hang on, the guy who said this is an alt right git isn’t he
obviously wrong then
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Yes only alt right whingers think women need to be sitting at home sober or only wear nuns uniforms to avoid rape
Instead of, you know, the beta males that roam the streets looking to prey on the vulnerable
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No, there's a trend in recent years for us to say, unless its your child or family member where it is perfectly acceptable for you to provide guidance on risk mitigation, don't comment on how we need to keep ourselves safe from predators and instead focus on the acts of the predators.
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It's not just her job though. In terms of numbers, we prosecute fook all predatory men, even when they're famous footballers and the entire country heard the evidence.
The extreme cases like Belfield are very exceptional.
These are the real problem, very few of them will ever go to prison, but we're much more likely to run into them.
I don't think it's bad advice to mind your own safety and not drink too much to avoid being a victim. It is offensive that the helpful advice is never directed at men, who could mind themselves and drink less to avoid being a perpetrator.
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Out of interest, did the person making the comment that the OP is referring to say anything about the fact that people should respect boundaries and always seek consent?
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Good piece in the Sunday Times on this by Kathleen Stock
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