and the answer is, they are the tactical anti-Tory, anti-Brexit vote in my neighbourhood, and I care much more about stopping brexit than I care about the feelings of people who have taken it on themselves in a fact-free manner to imaginarily imagine an imaginary antisemitism problem in the labour party to discredit it and serve political prejudices they already hold. The notion that Labour is institutionally antisemitic is libel spread by reactionaries, bribed agents and other bad actors.
I'm not planning on voting Labour but the more I hear about this anti-semitism stuff the more I think it sounds like a witch hunt against Corbyn, mostly by people who don't actually seem to care that much about anti-semitism (if not Jewish) or other kinds of racism (if Jewish).
And Laz is right that the only possibility of stopping Brexit is to stop the Tories. Unfortunately that means Corbyn in No.10 (hopefully not for long). You have to pick your poison.
Thankfully I don't actually need to tactically vote Labour.
Of course it is LP. There have been Tory and Lib Dem PPCs binned for actual anti-semitism in this election cycle, but Corbyn is the one that gets the flak. Johnson and Javid seem to have conveniently forgotten or parked their hustings pledges around Tory Islamophobia investigations.
It's the same as how people slate Corbyn for supposed IRA sympathies whilst turning a blind eye to the Tories bringing the DUP into power.
I honestly don't have any faith that Labour will prevent brexit, otherwise I would vote for them to stop it. I'd be willing to put up with short term Corbyn to stop that going ahead. We all know that Corbyn actually wants brexit and his wet dream is a hard brexit. He just doesn't want his fingerprints on a hard brexit. So I really don't think the Labour leadership has much interest in preventing it.
Why's Laz allowed to say what he's said on this thread without being absolutely crucified for it whereas when Anna / Lady P said similar (but arguably much more concisely and with the pertinent question of repeatedly asking for examples of what would happen) she was immediately called on it and subjected to repeated insults which some sustained over many threads that were mostly wholly unrelated to the topic?
Oh, and we await cookie calling Laz an anti-Semitic aunt...
Labour winning a majority might not stop brexit, but labour winning enough seats to hang parliament again will bog the whole brexit project down again, leading to the holding of another referendum straight no deal v remain. Which remain will absolutely piss, taking about 70%.
So I really don't think the Labour leadership has much interest in preventing it.
Their plan is to negotiate a better Brexit deal (which does sound doable given that their plan would involve dropping some of the Tory government's red lines and going for a closer relationship with the EU, i.e. a less damaging batshit Brexity Brexit) and then putting that to a referendum against remain.
Let's face it, it's better than any other plan, including the Lib Dems' revoke policy.
TBF, what Anna got attacked for the most was appearing to say that even if Labour were institutionally antisemitic, it wouldn’t harm anyone. I’m not saying she was saying that, but that’s what cookie and others heard. I’m clearly not saying that. Also, nobody here has accused anyone of having a persecution complex. Try to avoid emotive escalation of the debate pls.
Let's face it of course Labour has an anti semitism problem; of course the Tories have an islamophobic problem.
Whilst I doubt these are things that will alter many votes (indeed I have a genuine worry Bernstein is right and that this is a deliberate numbers game approach by Labour) all told for me personally this is partly why like hoolz and Bright Carver I can't bring myself to vote for either of these two showers of sh*t (or probably at all).
You said an imaginary anti semitism problem was being weaponised by labour opponents . It isn't imaginary and the people I know most worried about it are ex labour voters, like me
it's obviously not imaginary. listen to the chief rabbi and others - serious people.
and I don't think anybody who watched the panorama programme, with the whistleblowers from the complaints team , would say this is fabricated/fake news
I think they believe that the consequences of having an institutionally antisemitic political party hold power would be that antisemitism would insidiously become more acceptable in british public and private life, leading to an environment and a culture more hostile to jews in all kinds of big and little ways, eroding their opportunity, sense of security and belonging, perhaps in extreme cases their safety.
The Labour Party are keeping starmer quiet , very odd . When ever you see him , standing along Corbyn or Mcdonell chatting shite you can see him squirm with embarrassment. If he was leader, with a sensible moderate cabinet around him I would vote labour
I think there are pockets of anti-Semitism within the Labour party that fit with some twisted extreme left-wing views but (i) by and large the party (i.e. the vast majority of its members and MPs) aren't anti-Semitic, quite the opposite and (ii) Corbyn has done a terrible job of rooting it out. I suspect (clearly I don't know, it's my best guess) his conflict is not that he is anti-Semitic but that those who are anti-Semitic are valuable to him in other ways, so he is afraid to call them out, which is both a moral failing and tactical mistake.
I think the other parties are over-playing it. I don't think there's a real or tangible threat to Jewish people. History can prove people like me wrong on things like this, but that's my best judgement.
I won't vote Labour this time. The allegation of institutional anti-Semitism won't be the reason why, but the failure to deal with the instances properly is a contributing factor.
antisemitism would insidiously become more acceptable in british public and private life
sounds like a reasonable assumption, but wouldn't that suggest that voting for the tories and their Brexit would create an acceptable culture of immigration hating, muslim letter box calling, destroying the country with nationalism, lieing to the public in the way of fake news/websites/actors etc.
Sounds like the jews are just thinking of themselves here poor show
Why does anything have to "happen" to them to legitimately not want to be governed by people who actively wish them harm?
This is a legitimate point, but a lot of people seem to think that this is a good enough reason why anyone with a conscience should not vote Labour, when the alternative is the Tory party who actively wish lots of people harm (and actual harm is more likely to happen to those people under a Tory government than to Jewish people under a Labour government).
But either Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson will be the next prime minister. So whether you vote for one of them, or for another party, or you don't vote at all, your vote or your non vote will help one of them into No.10. So we all need to decide which one of them we least want to help and vote (or not vote) accordingly.
Tbf I can see why Guy wouldn't have realised this thread about anti-Jewish racism and titled "Anti-Jewish racism" that has been near the top of the Board all morning since 9.06am was about anti-Jewish racism and decided to therefore start his own thread about it.
I'm also sure it wasn't anything to do with this thread giving Labour and Corbyn a sound drubbing pretty much throughout and Guy wanting to start a new thread that didn't have any of the above posts on it.
Jewishness isn't a race, though, is it? It's a religion. Please do get it right.
Its definitely more than that. I mean I identified my wife as Jewish just by looking at her and it isn't as if their oppressors have historically limited themselves to going after people wearing koppels.
The real anti Semitism - the conspiracy theories, the visceral dislike of the race, the stereotyping is largely absent from the Labour Party and certainly from its leadership. The Labour party is infected by anti-Zionism, which I am perfectly happy to accept is offensive in historical context and may even accept (although I am yet to be convinced) should be counted as anti-Semitism but I think it is important to understand it is coming from a different place from the traditional anti-Semitism that I think most people have in their imaginations that has caused so much harm in the past.
I think your political party of choice has been caught with its pants massively down and you can't accept that.
Even though people were pointing out years ago the pants were slipping and they were then around the ankles and they're now fifteen bus-stops away and you're still on the bus surrounded by sh1t.
Shami saying it ain't so in return for a seat in the House of Lords doesn't change a thing, I'm afraid.
if Jeremy corbyn breaks bread with people who think that Israel should not exist (or lets them thrive in the labour party) , then as night follows day people will consider him an anti-semite
"I think it is important to understand it is coming from a different place from the traditional anti-Semitism that I think most people have in their imaginations that has caused so much harm in the past."
So thinking that the Jews don't deserve to belong in the place they choose to live is somehow different from the twisted mindset that lead to the hollocaust? Oh ok - if you say so Guy!
Yes it is wibble - one is borne of believing the political decision to create the state of Israel ignoring the wishes of the current inhabitants was wrong and other is borne of irrational tribal racism. I am not saying the former is right but its clearly a different beast.
I am aware that many on here aren't interested in evidence about systemic anti-Semitism in Labour, preferring to engage in "Whataboutery" or simple cognitive dissonance, but for those who are interested in evidence, please see the below from the Labour centrist website Red Roar:
An activist who is delivering training for the pro-Corbyn group Momentum has accused the Chief Rabbi of using “weaponised antisemitism”.
Holly Rigby runs the Abolish Eton campaign, and announced earlier this month that she would be travelling the country to train Labour and Momentum activists on general election campaigning.
Today she has launched an attack on the Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis after he expressed concerns about Jeremy Corbyn’s record on antisemitism, branding him “a Boris Johnson supporter” and “an uncritical supporter of Netanyahu and the violent oppression of Palestinians by Israel”. Rigby also claims that the Chief Rabbi’s “attack on Corbyn” has “weaponised antisemitism”.
Rigby’s previous interventions on Labour antisemitism should have cast doubt on her suitability to train Labour members. She repeatedly defended disgraced former Labour MP Chris Williamson after he said the party had been “too apologetic” over anti-Jewish racism, saying “his comments in Sheffield weren’t antisemitic and he shouldn’t have been suspended.” She also criticised Momentum’s decision to drop its support for Labour NEC member Pete Willsman after he was caught on tape blaming the party’s antisemitism crisis on “Jewish Trump fanatics”.
Rigby has also rejected Labour’s adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Association (IHRA) definition of antisemitism, criticising John McDonnell for his support of the move last month.
Then you have Ali Milani, the Labour candidate in Uxbridge, who has had to apologise for previous anti-Semitic remarks (but hasn't been made to stand down, c.f. the Tories). The biggest single donor to his Gofund me campaign is the delightful Hilary Wise, who noted on the Guido Fawkes website claimed that the anti-Semitism problem was just being orchestrated by international Zionists to discredit labour.
“Because I’ve been campaigning for Palestinian rights for about 30 years now and I’ve never actually seen anything quite like the, it is a campaign, of slurs and accusations of anti-Semitism largely against the leadership, against Jeremy Corbyn, and against the left of the party… I’m afraid it is a orchestrated campaign. If you want to know a little bit about how the orchestration works you can watch that Al-Jazeera programme, the documentary which was made two years ago. It’s called ‘The Lobby’. You can watch it online, please do that”
Wise has also:
Signed a petition to expel Labour Friends of Israel from the party
Signed a petition to disaffiliate the Jewish Labour Movement from the party
Signed a petition to have the Charity Commission remove charitable status from the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism
Claimed Israel releases hyenas in the Jordan Valley to attack Palestinian communities
That may well be how the legislation handles it, Wibble, but it's a false construct in order to avoid difficulties in prosecution/litigation, innit? Religiion is a creed (something you choose to believe/adhere to). Race is something you are regadless of choice or belief (a bit like gender, ultimately).
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It doesn’t. HTH
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and the answer is, they are the tactical anti-Tory, anti-Brexit vote in my neighbourhood, and I care much more about stopping brexit than I care about the feelings of people who have taken it on themselves in a fact-free manner to imaginarily imagine an imaginary antisemitism problem in the labour party to discredit it and serve political prejudices they already hold. The notion that Labour is institutionally antisemitic is libel spread by reactionaries, bribed agents and other bad actors.
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[Father Ted] I HEAR YOU'RE A RACIST NOW, NOTLAZ. [/Father Ted]
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oh yeah sure
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heh@ voting Labour being an anti-Brexit vote!
That is some dumbfookery right there.
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The allegations of anti-semitism will play well with their target postal voters though.
Could be talking 140 - 150% turnout in some areas!
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it's obviously not all made up apnhb. why would the Jewish leaders be calling it out if there was not a problem?
did you see the panorama programme a while back. worth watching.
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brexit is only certain under a tory majority. Labour have made clear they would hold another referendum.
anything that denies a tory majority helps kill brexit
Only Labour can unseat the tory in my ‘hood.
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I'm not planning on voting Labour but the more I hear about this anti-semitism stuff the more I think it sounds like a witch hunt against Corbyn, mostly by people who don't actually seem to care that much about anti-semitism (if not Jewish) or other kinds of racism (if Jewish).
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If you want to stop Brexit, vote for a man who'll ask the country again any stay neutral.
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to imaginarily imagine an imaginary antisemitism problem in the labour party to discredit it
Are you fvcking serious?!
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AP, as opposed to a man who’ll implement brexit immediately? Yes, exactly.
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And Laz is right that the only possibility of stopping Brexit is to stop the Tories. Unfortunately that means Corbyn in No.10 (hopefully not for long). You have to pick your poison.
Thankfully I don't actually need to tactically vote Labour.
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Pinko gets a bit upset when he thinks people aren’t going to vote for his beloved tories, same with artoo.
Listen m88s: I’m literally never going to vote Tory ever, literally never, not any time before I die and not any time after.
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Trying (but failing to) to Stop brexit is rather huge price to pay for the utter shitshow that a Corbyn PM would create.
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Of course it is LP. There have been Tory and Lib Dem PPCs binned for actual anti-semitism in this election cycle, but Corbyn is the one that gets the flak. Johnson and Javid seem to have conveniently forgotten or parked their hustings pledges around Tory Islamophobia investigations.
It's the same as how people slate Corbyn for supposed IRA sympathies whilst turning a blind eye to the Tories bringing the DUP into power.
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Nope, it’s entirely worthwhile. Brexit is the only thing I’m voting on.
BTW do your old m8s from the hippy convoy know you’re a Tory now?
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P.S I will probably vote Labour in the GE.
mostly to keep the Lib Dems out
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It is manifest to anyone with a brain that a Johnson premiership is infinitely worse on all grounds than a Corbyn one anyway!
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Errr Brexit is an utter shit show. And an irreversible one at that.
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no offence artoo sun but any time you talk about politics, the little baby jesus shits his pants
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Jewish population 700,000
Moslem 5,000,000
For socialism it's a numbers game
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not its not.
hth
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I honestly don't have any faith that Labour will prevent brexit, otherwise I would vote for them to stop it. I'd be willing to put up with short term Corbyn to stop that going ahead. We all know that Corbyn actually wants brexit and his wet dream is a hard brexit. He just doesn't want his fingerprints on a hard brexit. So I really don't think the Labour leadership has much interest in preventing it.
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"Corbyn actually wants brexit and his wet dream is a hard brexit. He just doesn't want his fingerprints on a hard brexit"
spot on,
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Pinko gets a bit upset when he thinks people aren’t going to vote for his beloved tories, same with artoo.
Given I'm not voting Tory, and didn't last time, this is an odd position to take.
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For the first time, I am not voting
tories : evil, Brexit, austerity, Johnson is a complete tool
labour : anti semitism, magic grandpa actually wants Brexit, waspi women bribery
Lib Dems : idiots, either don't know or care what a woman is
greens : as above
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Why's Laz allowed to say what he's said on this thread without being absolutely crucified for it whereas when Anna / Lady P said similar (but arguably much more concisely and with the pertinent question of repeatedly asking for examples of what would happen) she was immediately called on it and subjected to repeated insults which some sustained over many threads that were mostly wholly unrelated to the topic?
Oh, and we await cookie calling Laz an anti-Semitic aunt...
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hoolz - same as you but still debating whether to turn out and spoil or just not even bother with that.
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honestly I love a cheeky bit of racism
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Labour winning a majority might not stop brexit, but labour winning enough seats to hang parliament again will bog the whole brexit project down again, leading to the holding of another referendum straight no deal v remain. Which remain will absolutely piss, taking about 70%.
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Their plan is to negotiate a better Brexit deal (which does sound doable given that their plan would involve dropping some of the Tory government's red lines and going for a closer relationship with the EU, i.e. a less damaging batshit Brexity Brexit) and then putting that to a referendum against remain.
Let's face it, it's better than any other plan, including the Lib Dems' revoke policy.
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Laz would vote Labour if they caught Corbyn bumming a child with Price Andrew.
There is no logic or thought behind it, hes like many of the tedious left, utterly unthinking in their stupid loyalty.
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BC the answer to that is that cookie appears to be on a little rest. He was the one doing all the villifying of Anna
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Bright Carver, guess it’s called being popular m88
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TBF, what Anna got attacked for the most was appearing to say that even if Labour were institutionally antisemitic, it wouldn’t harm anyone. I’m not saying she was saying that, but that’s what cookie and others heard. I’m clearly not saying that. Also, nobody here has accused anyone of having a persecution complex. Try to avoid emotive escalation of the debate pls.
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But "the jews" do have a persecution complex. With good fooking reason.
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Let's face it of course Labour has an anti semitism problem; of course the Tories have an islamophobic problem.
Whilst I doubt these are things that will alter many votes (indeed I have a genuine worry Bernstein is right and that this is a deliberate numbers game approach by Labour) all told for me personally this is partly why like hoolz and Bright Carver I can't bring myself to vote for either of these two showers of sh*t (or probably at all).
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You said an imaginary anti semitism problem was being weaponised by labour opponents . It isn't imaginary and the people I know most worried about it are ex labour voters, like me
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it's obviously not imaginary. listen to the chief rabbi and others - serious people.
and I don't think anybody who watched the panorama programme, with the whistleblowers from the complaints team , would say this is fabricated/fake news
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I did say that and I stand by it.
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genuinely curious - what do people think is going to happen to the jews if labour are voted for?
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You can stand by it. You're wrong though
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Why does anything have to "happen" to them to legitimately not want to be governed by people who actively wish them harm?
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I think they believe that the consequences of having an institutionally antisemitic political party hold power would be that antisemitism would insidiously become more acceptable in british public and private life, leading to an environment and a culture more hostile to jews in all kinds of big and little ways, eroding their opportunity, sense of security and belonging, perhaps in extreme cases their safety.
They're right.
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The Labour Party are keeping starmer quiet , very odd . When ever you see him , standing along Corbyn or Mcdonell chatting shite you can see him squirm with embarrassment. If he was leader, with a sensible moderate cabinet around him I would vote labour
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I think there are pockets of anti-Semitism within the Labour party that fit with some twisted extreme left-wing views but (i) by and large the party (i.e. the vast majority of its members and MPs) aren't anti-Semitic, quite the opposite and (ii) Corbyn has done a terrible job of rooting it out. I suspect (clearly I don't know, it's my best guess) his conflict is not that he is anti-Semitic but that those who are anti-Semitic are valuable to him in other ways, so he is afraid to call them out, which is both a moral failing and tactical mistake.
I think the other parties are over-playing it. I don't think there's a real or tangible threat to Jewish people. History can prove people like me wrong on things like this, but that's my best judgement.
I won't vote Labour this time. The allegation of institutional anti-Semitism won't be the reason why, but the failure to deal with the instances properly is a contributing factor.
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oh look, loads of other people think the same as me. They must all be anti-semites too!
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antisemitism would insidiously become more acceptable in british public and private life
sounds like a reasonable assumption, but wouldn't that suggest that voting for the tories and their Brexit would create an acceptable culture of immigration hating, muslim letter box calling, destroying the country with nationalism, lieing to the public in the way of fake news/websites/actors etc.
Sounds like the jews are just thinking of themselves here poor show
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possibly
it’s certainly true that intolerance of minorities is much more ingrained in the culture of the conservative party than any other of the big three
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“possibly” was to your first para not your last
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Quite an astonishing post at 09:18 there Lady P.
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This is a legitimate point, but a lot of people seem to think that this is a good enough reason why anyone with a conscience should not vote Labour, when the alternative is the Tory party who actively wish lots of people harm (and actual harm is more likely to happen to those people under a Tory government than to Jewish people under a Labour government).
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I'm not voting Tory either.
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But either Jeremy Corbyn or Boris Johnson will be the next prime minister. So whether you vote for one of them, or for another party, or you don't vote at all, your vote or your non vote will help one of them into No.10. So we all need to decide which one of them we least want to help and vote (or not vote) accordingly.
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bump for guy
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Jewishness isn't a race, though, is it? It's a religion. Please do get it right.
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Well done, wibble.
Tbf I can see why Guy wouldn't have realised this thread about anti-Jewish racism and titled "Anti-Jewish racism" that has been near the top of the Board all morning since 9.06am was about anti-Jewish racism and decided to therefore start his own thread about it.
I'm also sure it wasn't anything to do with this thread giving Labour and Corbyn a sound drubbing pretty much throughout and Guy wanting to start a new thread that didn't have any of the above posts on it.
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Badman, under current legislation discrimination on the grounds of religion = race discrimination
hth
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Badman, under current legislation discrimination on grounds of nationality also = race discrimination
htah
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Plus it’s also kind an ethnicity. But tbf it doesn’t neatly fit into any one box completely.
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*bites tongue 'cos serious subject and doesn't want to offend hoolz*
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That gets a heh from me Clive
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lol at wibble and sock puppet congratulating each other.
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Shut up and apparently keep the Red Flag flying whatever, Guy.
Be judged accordingly though.
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Jewishness isn't a race, though, is it? It's a religion. Please do get it right.
Its definitely more than that. I mean I identified my wife as Jewish just by looking at her and it isn't as if their oppressors have historically limited themselves to going after people wearing koppels.
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The real anti Semitism - the conspiracy theories, the visceral dislike of the race, the stereotyping is largely absent from the Labour Party and certainly from its leadership. The Labour party is infected by anti-Zionism, which I am perfectly happy to accept is offensive in historical context and may even accept (although I am yet to be convinced) should be counted as anti-Semitism but I think it is important to understand it is coming from a different place from the traditional anti-Semitism that I think most people have in their imaginations that has caused so much harm in the past.
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I think your political party of choice has been caught with its pants massively down and you can't accept that.
Even though people were pointing out years ago the pants were slipping and they were then around the ankles and they're now fifteen bus-stops away and you're still on the bus surrounded by sh1t.
Shami saying it ain't so in return for a seat in the House of Lords doesn't change a thing, I'm afraid.
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if Jeremy corbyn breaks bread with people who think that Israel should not exist (or lets them thrive in the labour party) , then as night follows day people will consider him an anti-semite
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"I think it is important to understand it is coming from a different place from the traditional anti-Semitism that I think most people have in their imaginations that has caused so much harm in the past."
So thinking that the Jews don't deserve to belong in the place they choose to live is somehow different from the twisted mindset that lead to the hollocaust? Oh ok - if you say so Guy!
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Whenever Badman says something like “please do get it right” it’s a sure fire sign that the position he has just set out is diametrically wrong.
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Yes it is wibble - one is borne of believing the political decision to create the state of Israel ignoring the wishes of the current inhabitants was wrong and other is borne of irrational tribal racism. I am not saying the former is right but its clearly a different beast.
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I am aware that many on here aren't interested in evidence about systemic anti-Semitism in Labour, preferring to engage in "Whataboutery" or simple cognitive dissonance, but for those who are interested in evidence, please see the below from the Labour centrist website Red Roar:
https://www.theredroar.com/2019/11/momentum-activist-trainer-attacks-ch…
An activist who is delivering training for the pro-Corbyn group Momentum has accused the Chief Rabbi of using “weaponised antisemitism”.
Holly Rigby runs the Abolish Eton campaign, and announced earlier this month that she would be travelling the country to train Labour and Momentum activists on general election campaigning.
Today she has launched an attack on the Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis after he expressed concerns about Jeremy Corbyn’s record on antisemitism, branding him “a Boris Johnson supporter” and “an uncritical supporter of Netanyahu and the violent oppression of Palestinians by Israel”. Rigby also claims that the Chief Rabbi’s “attack on Corbyn” has “weaponised antisemitism”.
Rigby’s previous interventions on Labour antisemitism should have cast doubt on her suitability to train Labour members. She repeatedly defended disgraced former Labour MP Chris Williamson after he said the party had been “too apologetic” over anti-Jewish racism, saying “his comments in Sheffield weren’t antisemitic and he shouldn’t have been suspended.” She also criticised Momentum’s decision to drop its support for Labour NEC member Pete Willsman after he was caught on tape blaming the party’s antisemitism crisis on “Jewish Trump fanatics”.
Rigby has also rejected Labour’s adoption of the International Holocaust Remembrance Association (IHRA) definition of antisemitism, criticising John McDonnell for his support of the move last month.
Then you have Ali Milani, the Labour candidate in Uxbridge, who has had to apologise for previous anti-Semitic remarks (but hasn't been made to stand down, c.f. the Tories). The biggest single donor to his Gofund me campaign is the delightful Hilary Wise, who noted on the Guido Fawkes website claimed that the anti-Semitism problem was just being orchestrated by international Zionists to discredit labour.
Wise has also:
Milani keeps trying to say he is a reformed character and has moved past his 9/11 truther, pro-armed struggle, anti-Jewish antics. Will he return the donations?
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Don't write off the anti-Semites' part of choice (endorsed by Nick Griffin) yet...
https://unherd.com/2019/11/dont-write-labour-off-yet/
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Blah
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That may well be how the legislation handles it, Wibble, but it's a false construct in order to avoid difficulties in prosecution/litigation, innit? Religiion is a creed (something you choose to believe/adhere to). Race is something you are regadless of choice or belief (a bit like gender, ultimately).
Join the discussion