Oh but Israel has a right of self defence so it's totally fine. It's only 400 Palestinians, that's fine, no biggie. Our aim is about 20,000 dead Palestinians to seek revenge for the 1400 of ours that died. Who cares about proportionality. We are a country built on stolen land and money from America. We have no shame, no morals, nothing. 400, it's nothing.
FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA ONE DAY PALESTINE WILL BE FREE.
Davos are you deluded. How the fcuk do.you read anything about the extermination of the Jews??!
Why do you you and the extremist Israeli government and those Israeli citizens that support the extremist, corrupt government ALWAYS play the victim? Next you will be crying anti semitism. Get a grip. The people of Gaza are dying in their thousands but you read that as "you want all jews.to be killed". No one is saying that whatsoever.
Davos I have no doubt in my mind that had you been a grown ass adult in 1930s Germany, you would have been an esteemed member of the Nazi party, such are the lapdog tendencies you exhibit. Plus there is something quite evil about you. Have a word with yourself when you put your phone down.
If hamas say 50, I'm inclined to believe 50 as I can't see why they would underestimate by 350?
To me the numbers are largely irrelevant and I have, of course, been calling for a UN imposed cease fire and two state solution for many weeks now. Like all sensible people.
It’s all a big set and they’re all acting, the bombs aren’t real either and the blood is tomato ketchup.
I never said that. I said it's not possible to verify the stories in real time. You, on the other hand, are calling people Nazis and making up positions that nobody is holding.
There are terrible events happening, nobody is denying that and your pathetic 🤡ing isn't making them better is it? You're just reacting like a child.
Ignoring Davos, sorry everyone for jumping the gun with that figure- I saw it in a couple of places on social media, didn’t question it, and reacted emotionally.
Saying that, Israel is pulverising Gaza, committing genocide, is a terrorist state- and that is a fact. 400 dead people or 40 doesn’t change that.
Interesting to hear the IDF spokesman speaking in a Scots accent about the this, took me a while to work it out. Seems they were going after a Hamas leader hiding amongst the refugees. No idea on true casualty numbers but clearly not ideal on any level.
I must have posted this already but since Gulf War One live on CNN we’ve been fed the ‘precision bombing’ ‘targeted air strikes’ line. It’s never true. Never. How many more people have to die?
Precision bombing is a thing and in this case the IDF precision bombed a refugee camp to kill a Hamas leader. They aren't denying it, they just aren't massively bothered about the casualties.
None. Let’s say though there is a two state solution on 1967 borders as a compromise. Israel signs up to it. Fatah signs up to it. The Arab states back it.
None. Let’s say though there is a two state solution on 1967 borders as a compromise. Israel signs up to it. Fatah signs up to it. The Arab states back it.
Do you think that would stop Hamas?
Hamas will remain a problem no matter what - but a mutually-agreed political solution will certainly help. Not sure what you think the alternative is? It would be nice if the Israeli right didn’t view Hamas as quite helpful for them, because their existence allows exactly the kind of argument you suggest here - “they won’t back a political solution, so why bother trying”
Those arguing that "from the river to the sea" is deeply offensive / anti-semetic when chanted in support for the people of palestine; i would counter that its no more offensive than "israel has the right to defend itself" in response the indiscriminate killing of thousands of innocent people.
It's ALMOST funny that some smug arseholes think they've got the solution like yeah no one else can fix it but ROF can.
I want the Israelis to win because they're closest to my world view (that's the basic rationale behind the American position obviously) but neither will.
Right, so saying that you “want the Israelis to win” and pouring scorn on people who criticise them for killing civilians might be a bit fooking stupid then mightn’t it?
Yes I side with the Israelis because they don't have a structural subordinate position for women. I think it would be fairly stupid to be team women are special but LESSER.
Did you know that the Israeli right has deliberately encouraged Hamas at the expense of Palestinian moderates? Do you still think you are all on the same “team”?
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The language we use to describe this conflict is bonkers. A war is between two nations both of which have military capability. Palestine isn’t a state, nor does it have a military. This isn’t a war.
Rhamnousia- you are so deranged. Like you actually really care about women under Islam. What a stupid thing to say. You are just a bigot and a racist. Israel can drop all the bombs it wants, they will never win.
There's no expectation of conversion or imperial expansion in orthodox Judaism tho.
the proselytising q is v different (and niche) reasoning compared 2 subordination of women!
And Judaism can handle secularism in a way that Islam demonstrably can't. Turkey got close then fluffed it.
this is false. neither judaism nor islam r sentient, and nor r they a homogenous single identifiable “thing”. they r many and varied belief systems. so capacity 2 handle secularism (or otherwise) is not a viable assessment. and the belief systems r tools, not driving 4ces. those who claim 2 b driven by religion r nutcases, it’s their choice all along
so it is a matter 4 the beliefs of individual ppl (their own islam or judaism) that dict7 whether or not secularism can work. 4 centuries the islamic world was capable of separ7ing secular and religious lives. and of being tolerant, modern in a way the christian world could not comprehend.
there r many reasons 4 the change in balance, but it’s not the religion itself - certain branches, eg wahhabism, r srsly problematic when men (it’s usually men) use them 2 justify.
and don’t 4get that there r hundreds of millions of muslims, only a small proportion of whom commit vile acts in the name of a religion, using it as an excuse and a tool - but it is the men (it’s usually men) who commit the vile acts who r 2 blame, not a belief system
‘Refusing to criticise Israeli bombing of civilians because you think they are on your “team” fighting a war against “Islam” is pants on head stupid’
bad actors and the truly stupid will have you believe that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. They use it shut down debate, speaking over the many Jews who disagree with them.
One assumes that posters on here doing this are not truly stupid (althoigh the likes of rhamnousia severely test that proposition).
I’m based in the Middle East and am genuinely curious to know which media sources you rely on for your information. I presume most are UK based and I’ve seen Al Jazeera being dismissed out of hand by some. Gaza Health Ministry figures are being dismissed on the basis that they are controlled by Hamas. So what sources are you relying on and what is making you so sure that these figures aren’t underestimated/underreported? Feels like everyone is forgetting the mainstream media reporting on WMDs and how that led to support for invading Iraq.
As others have said above, on the question of morality (and war crimes) it makes no difference; dropping a bomb on a refugee camp because you say that your intelligence shows that there was a senior Hamas official hiding there is morally repugnant and should lead to someone answering a war crimes tribunal. But nobody seems to be questioning the fact that this “justification” is from the same intelligence authority that allegedly had no idea of a well planned attack on 7 October AND has put together a memo outlining options including the use of military power to force Gaza residents to seek refuge in the Sinai peninsula. I wonder why some of you (and the US/UK/EU Governments) find this information so credible and reliable.
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They've rescued one hostage!
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all ok here, remember they were attacked by Hamas. which totally gives them the right to now totally kill just anybody they like
that’s how it works
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Oh but Israel has a right of self defence so it's totally fine. It's only 400 Palestinians, that's fine, no biggie. Our aim is about 20,000 dead Palestinians to seek revenge for the 1400 of ours that died. Who cares about proportionality. We are a country built on stolen land and money from America. We have no shame, no morals, nothing. 400, it's nothing.
FROM THE RIVER TO THE SEA ONE DAY PALESTINE WILL BE FREE.
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Remember fourteen eyes for an eye!
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Hang on we've got (presumably) lawyers calling for the extermination of Jewish people and others liking it?
This is a new low for ROF
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"by Israeli bombing, most of them women and children. "
Hopefully you aren't wrong like last time
That would be embarrassing
You are very quick to blame the Jews because of your reasons
That said, the gender of people killed is irrelevant
If it is a rogue or intentional missile then that is bad indeed, very bad
Hopefully a ceasefire will be imposed soon
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Is this as confirmed as the hospital one?
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Davos are you deluded. How the fcuk do.you read anything about the extermination of the Jews??!
Why do you you and the extremist Israeli government and those Israeli citizens that support the extremist, corrupt government ALWAYS play the victim? Next you will be crying anti semitism. Get a grip. The people of Gaza are dying in their thousands but you read that as "you want all jews.to be killed". No one is saying that whatsoever.
Oh right yes, it's the chant. Pathetic.
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Where is the 500 figure coming from?
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The 400 figure is being reported on social media, in particular eye.on.palestine (Insta), but I see that news outlets are reporting varying figures.
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Eye on Palestine is not a reliable source for this content. Ditto Al Jazeera.
There just isn't a way of verifying these stories yet and especially not in real time.
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Davos I have no doubt in my mind that had you been a grown ass adult in 1930s Germany, you would have been an esteemed member of the Nazi party, such are the lapdog tendencies you exhibit. Plus there is something quite evil about you. Have a word with yourself when you put your phone down.
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Eye on Palestine is literally Palestine in real time.
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This is absolutely disgraceful from lawyers who should know better
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Yes dear, Eye on Palestine is literally Palestine in real time because you say it is. Feel better?
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No no Royalty, you’re right. It’s all a big set and they’re all acting, the bombs aren’t real either and the blood is tomato ketchup.
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"Plus there is something quite evil about you."
I'll wait for receipts on this one
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If hamas say 50, I'm inclined to believe 50 as I can't see why they would underestimate by 350?
To me the numbers are largely irrelevant and I have, of course, been calling for a UN imposed cease fire and two state solution for many weeks now. Like all sensible people.
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heh @ davos, the shameless troll on any issue no matter how serious, trying to accuse people of antisemitism here
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I never said that. I said it's not possible to verify the stories in real time. You, on the other hand, are calling people Nazis and making up positions that nobody is holding.
There are terrible events happening, nobody is denying that and your pathetic 🤡ing isn't making them better is it? You're just reacting like a child.
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I've not accused anyone of anything but have instead been called a Nazi and evil
It's a discussion style not since the days of that poster that kept getting banned for trans stuff
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some facts fyi hth:
1. nobody here called for the extermination of jewish people
2. nobody here called for the extermination of jewish people
3. nobody here called for the extermination of jewish people
4. your 17:21 is therefore an absolutely outrageous example of racialised stirring
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clearly nobody here is a nazi
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Has Davos been hacked?
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There are terrible events happening, nobody is denying that and your pathetic 🤡ing isn't making them better is it? You're just reacting like a child
OK grandad, sorry but who are you?
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Heh at calling for a ceasefire makes me a pathetic clown child.....
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Davos, have you been hacked?
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Have another read.
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I've not accused anyone of anything
apart from your near constant accusations of anti-semitism on practically every single conflict post? Such a crybaby.
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I'm rof royalty. Not a grandad yet, but hope to be one day. Weird question in the context tbh.
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"You are very quick to blame the Jews because of your reasons "
Oh I see - this is being interpreted as me hinting at someone being anti-Semitic
It is of course a reference to the several (maybe 10) that honeybun gave for disliking Israel
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Davos I accidentally liked your 17.21 post, my bad. So it's just 3 likes for.you not 4.
From the river to the sea.
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Ok lad, thanks for letting me know, I'm sure I'll live
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Ignoring Davos, sorry everyone for jumping the gun with that figure- I saw it in a couple of places on social media, didn’t question it, and reacted emotionally.
Saying that, Israel is pulverising Gaza, committing genocide, is a terrorist state- and that is a fact. 400 dead people or 40 doesn’t change that.
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Well as I said, the numbers are largely irrelevant
A ceasefire is needed immediately
And long lasting peace can only be imposed by the UN and troops
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Interesting to hear the IDF spokesman speaking in a Scots accent about the this, took me a while to work it out. Seems they were going after a Hamas leader hiding amongst the refugees. No idea on true casualty numbers but clearly not ideal on any level.
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Bombing refugee camps doesn't seem a 'hearts and mind' approach
I simply cannot put myself in the shoes of anyone involved and come to the conclusion that more violence is needed
Perhaps I am missing some context
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I must have posted this already but since Gulf War One live on CNN we’ve been fed the ‘precision bombing’ ‘targeted air strikes’ line. It’s never true. Never. How many more people have to die?
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Precision bombing is a thing and in this case the IDF precision bombed a refugee camp to kill a Hamas leader. They aren't denying it, they just aren't massively bothered about the casualties.
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None. Let’s say though there is a two state solution on 1967 borders as a compromise. Israel signs up to it. Fatah signs up to it. The Arab states back it.
Do you think that would stop Hamas?
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I’ve said already I don’t anything will stop any of these people. Millennia of conflict. They all inherit its intractability. Or leave.
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Hamas will remain a problem no matter what - but a mutually-agreed political solution will certainly help. Not sure what you think the alternative is? It would be nice if the Israeli right didn’t view Hamas as quite helpful for them, because their existence allows exactly the kind of argument you suggest here - “they won’t back a political solution, so why bother trying”
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Compromise and peace is possible and inevitable.
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Why is Rof tolerating deeply offensive language on here?
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The Palestinian Red Cross have said that 25 were killed. Israel is at war.
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Those arguing that "from the river to the sea" is deeply offensive / anti-semetic when chanted in support for the people of palestine; i would counter that its no more offensive than "israel has the right to defend itself" in response the indiscriminate killing of thousands of innocent people.
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Does Israel still exist then in this rivers to the Sea scenario?
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Cross post with the vegetable rather than a response
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If it is 25 or 400 civilians killed then we are still left with the main question.
This is similar to the NATO intervention in Afghanistan to root out Al Qaeda but different in worse ways.
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How many rockets does iron dome bring down a day?
Seems like quite some kit
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You mean the same moral question that can be asked of every war in history RR?
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It's ALMOST funny that some smug arseholes think they've got the solution like yeah no one else can fix it but ROF can.
I want the Israelis to win because they're closest to my world view (that's the basic rationale behind the American position obviously) but neither will.
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The policy of the Israeli government the denial of the Palestinian people a Palestinian state. But that's ok right?
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The policy of Islam is to deny my full human status as a woman so my enemy's enemy.
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Imagine the sheep fighting for the territorial rights of the wolf.
Mental.
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WHENEVER I SEE PICTURES OF DEAD PALESTINIAN CHILDREN I THANK GOD THOSE DANGEROUS WOLVES HAVE BEEN SLAIN
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“Winning” won’t be achieved by killing loads of civilians.
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It won't be achieved at all
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No, only asymmetric wars. Hth
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Right, so saying that you “want the Israelis to win” and pouring scorn on people who criticise them for killing civilians might be a bit fooking stupid then mightn’t it?
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Yes I side with the Israelis because they don't have a structural subordinate position for women. I think it would be fairly stupid to be team women are special but LESSER.
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There are no “teams” here you simpleton
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They appear to have a structural subordinate position for people that are not them.
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Yeah but you also feel the same about Eddie Izzard so forgive us for ignoring your mania.
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Yeah a lot of guys dislike women and resent the status our ancestors have hard won. I get it.
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Refusing to criticise Israeli bombing of civilians because you think they are on your “team” fighting a war against “Islam” is pants on head stupid
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I sometimes think continuing active protections and campaigns for women are unnecessary and then I am reminded of Victorian dweebs like yourselves.
Women suffer under Islam.
Women suffer under transgender extremism.
You don't care.
Fine you don't have to.
Doesn't make you a great person.
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That is not the policy of all Islam and there are lots of Christian Palestinians as well what with it being where the whole biblical story started.
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Did you know that the Israeli right has deliberately encouraged Hamas at the expense of Palestinian moderates? Do you still think you are all on the same “team”?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/
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The extremists on both sides need one another to maintain support and legitimacy.
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I was half joking when I linked your transphobia to your islamophobia because it's so obviously a zero IQ position and yet.... here we are.
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Surely it's not transphobic to say Eddie Izzard isn't a woman?
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It is zero IQ
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I don't know what that is meant to mean, sounds like an electric car
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The language we use to describe this conflict is bonkers. A war is between two nations both of which have military capability. Palestine isn’t a state, nor does it have a military. This isn’t a war.
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Rhamnousia- you are so deranged. Like you actually really care about women under Islam. What a stupid thing to say. You are just a bigot and a racist. Israel can drop all the bombs it wants, they will never win.
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I care about women not having to be under Islam.
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Remind me again how many rockets has Hamas fired at Israel?
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Dunno
Some
They also decapitated some children and raped some women and burned some people alive
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Threw a grenade at a dad so he exploded in the face of his son
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Team down with this sort of thing as a priority
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You are so dumb. Are you American?
You just believe anything you read. Zero evidence of decapitation and raping women. How can you be a lawyer??
Go back to your hole.
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Yeah... You are why I support Israel. You're definitely not the good guys.
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You are part of the problem. Right wing, blind, stupid, daily mail fool.
You go support your genocidal, Nazi Israel. Good on you!
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Seriously, who is this character? Have not seen him/her before.
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Clergs is beung deliberately provocative.
However, the photos of that poor young girl being paraded, half-naked, with obviously broken limbs are irrefutable.
If your initial answer to that is free palestine, from the river to the sea or some other form of whataboutery then how will this ever be resolved?
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this is not true spanky
certain types of orthodox judaism r amongst the most oppressive belief systems 4 women, as bad as wahhabism in that respect
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Yeah but some of her mates are Jewish and or Israeli so...
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There's no expectation of conversion or imperial expansion in orthodox Judaism tho.
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And Judaism can handle secularism in a way that Islam demonstrably can't. Turkey got close then fluffed it.
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It’s not Judaism vs Islam Top Trumps.
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It's ok. You've taken a side. Don't get pissy when people people notice that and discount your opinions because of it.
You're in good company with honeybun and sailsaltaccount and Davos.
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Davos and Honeybun on the same side?
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Yes. Nutters.
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I’m on the side of innocent civilians who get killed by terrorists, be those terrorists Hamas or the Israeli state, yes.
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Yes. Nutters.
Don’t be salty, grandad x
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the proselytising q is v different (and niche) reasoning compared 2 subordination of women!
this is false. neither judaism nor islam r sentient, and nor r they a homogenous single identifiable “thing”. they r many and varied belief systems. so capacity 2 handle secularism (or otherwise) is not a viable assessment. and the belief systems r tools, not driving 4ces. those who claim 2 b driven by religion r nutcases, it’s their choice all along
so it is a matter 4 the beliefs of individual ppl (their own islam or judaism) that dict7 whether or not secularism can work. 4 centuries the islamic world was capable of separ7ing secular and religious lives. and of being tolerant, modern in a way the christian world could not comprehend.
there r many reasons 4 the change in balance, but it’s not the religion itself - certain branches, eg wahhabism, r srsly problematic when men (it’s usually men) use them 2 justify.
and don’t 4get that there r hundreds of millions of muslims, only a small proportion of whom commit vile acts in the name of a religion, using it as an excuse and a tool - but it is the men (it’s usually men) who commit the vile acts who r 2 blame, not a belief system
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‘Refusing to criticise Israeli bombing of civilians because you think they are on your “team” fighting a war against “Islam” is pants on head stupid’
bad actors and the truly stupid will have you believe that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. They use it shut down debate, speaking over the many Jews who disagree with them.
One assumes that posters on here doing this are not truly stupid (althoigh the likes of rhamnousia severely test that proposition).
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I’m based in the Middle East and am genuinely curious to know which media sources you rely on for your information. I presume most are UK based and I’ve seen Al Jazeera being dismissed out of hand by some. Gaza Health Ministry figures are being dismissed on the basis that they are controlled by Hamas. So what sources are you relying on and what is making you so sure that these figures aren’t underestimated/underreported? Feels like everyone is forgetting the mainstream media reporting on WMDs and how that led to support for invading Iraq.
As others have said above, on the question of morality (and war crimes) it makes no difference; dropping a bomb on a refugee camp because you say that your intelligence shows that there was a senior Hamas official hiding there is morally repugnant and should lead to someone answering a war crimes tribunal. But nobody seems to be questioning the fact that this “justification” is from the same intelligence authority that allegedly had no idea of a well planned attack on 7 October AND has put together a memo outlining options including the use of military power to force Gaza residents to seek refuge in the Sinai peninsula. I wonder why some of you (and the US/UK/EU Governments) find this information so credible and reliable.
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I’d say the death toll is closer to 400 than 40
smack bang in the middle of a cluster of refugees
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