Unpopular opinion - people who care about politics the most tend to be left-wing, and they're left-wing because they own low salaries, and they hate people who have wealth or who earn more money than them, despite wanting more money themselves.
cos un4tun7ly a vocal minority r self-interested arrogant twots who mistakenly believe that they earned their wealth and will do nething they can 2 grasp onto it while pulling up the ladder on a totally shortsighted basis
I would support doubling teacher pay if it was linked to a) higher entry standards, b) performance related assessment, c) swift removal from the profession of low performers.
Clergs, what like train drivers? I am all for giving Drs, nurses , and care workers 20% uplift in pay. The problem is most care homes are private enterprises and PE backed, there is no incentive to give these rises.
because thatcher gulled so many people into thinking unions are evil
brits are in a double bind - we are averse to investment and entrepreneurship and always think as employees, but we don’t organise like employees should
look at the way the christmas-voting turkeys on here; who would manifestly benefit from effective union representation, actually talk about unions
people still believe Thatcher’s lies that unions were the root of some pervasive evil
There’s an unfortunate, but thankfully minority, view that delivering chemotherapy and teaching children literacy are as important as drafting privacy policies or negotiating disclosure letters.
Hopefully we won’t see this become a majority view and instead can see other societally critical jobs, such as personal injury solicitors, recover from their recent financial malaise and needless fripperies which are too often are still well paid, like surgeons, stop being a needless drain on the hardworking taxpayer.
Risky's experience of his first career in education showing through there. Or is it an offshore "expert" with no stake in the game trotting out right wing dogma?
The issue is UK unions are typically piss takers who put up people like Len McCluskey and his GF in grace and favour flats in london and protect insiders rather than protect workers' rights generally. Contrast with e.g. German and Dutch unions that are pragmatic because they are baked into significant corporate decisions and have a common goal ethos.
Weak politicians have also failed to flag that public sector pensions are no longer "gold plated", typically based on career average and probably roughly what they should demand off all private employers to deal with the unaffordability of a state pension long term.
All this means it's easy to suggest they are doing well anyway and have no business doing this when others are not getting payrises. There's probably also an element of Britishness in not asking for payrises individually, so it's galling when someone else is blatantly demanding them.
The dichtomy of a union doesnt really work in the public sector - there is no common goal between owner and employee, because the state can never go bust and it needs to deliver services for services sake - the union can always ask for more and more because they dont have to worry about the business going bust and can hold those services hostage. It relies on the unionists being sensible and not-self interested. I dont really think there is fundamentally a difference between a unionist and investment banker - both will take as much as they can given the opportunity.
It actually works better in a german style private set up as set out above - one stakeholder that has an interest in the business doing well, achieving a fair share for its members - they dont want to take too much as the business loses investment or becomes unprofitable and everyone loses their job, but at the same time they are part of the decision making process.
I’m a proud union man. But in the socialist tradition of trade unions, which was the means through which nearly everything achieved by british trades unions was accomplished.
Having the workers rights represented isnt necessarily a bad thing - you have to recognise your repsonsibility towards your staff and not simply view them as a cost - thats why i do actually think the german model is pretty good - its designed to prevent the more egregious examples of one guy at the top making a gazillion pounds versus thousands of foot soldiers making nothing - if the footsoldiers have stake, the guy at the top might make just-less than a gazillion pounds, but still minted, and foot soldiers have a better quality of life.
Not total equality obviously, guy at the time will have a much higher skill base and risk profile than an unskilled worker (im not a communist) but you have to look after your troops and they look after you.
I'm surprised that nobody has commented upon the implications for this issue of the yawning gap between the affluent parts of Britain and the less affluent parts of Britain.
A £32k primary teacher annual pay in Greater London seems not very much. By comparison the same annual pay in Blackpool can seem like quite a lot.
I think some of the reversal of the politics of the UK that we have witnessed over the past decade is related to this issue. In affluent parts of the UK the average voter thinks that public sector works are underpaid. In less affluent parts of the UK this is not the case. The difference is that average incomes and property prices are different in the two parts of the UK.
A state employer has the power of legislating to ban unions. This is what should have happened in SE transport as it is a de facto utility given that the car is not a viable alternative. State employment unions also have the benefit of collective bargaining across tens of thousands of workers.
It's a joke that a bent vote chasing govt guarantees retirees a triple locked pension but doesn't triple lock state employees' wages, if that is the measure of decency. Ultimately if you curtail the gig economy BS, have decent employment laws, a living minimum wage and a triple lock mandatory uprating of it then unions should become irrelevant/
I would never voluntarily join a union as I don't want my employment to be a bargaining chip for someone to advance their political career at my expense.
Yes I love paying money to the Law Society so that a few dicks who weren't very good at law can segue into politics through a paid role which I fund. They've never asked me what I care about or what they might be able to do for me and have achieved nothing for me.
"I’m a proud union man. But in the socialist tradition of trade unions, which was the means through which nearly everything achieved by british trades unions was accomplished."
You mean apart from the Liberal government which gave them legal protection through the Trade Union 1871; the Liberal MPs who championed workers' representation in Parliament (not least Keir Hardie himself, who started as a Liberal); the creation of the Reform League, which was subsidised by the Liberal Party; etc etc.
Who said "employers good"? Obvs they are going to go for the lowest common denominator. The trick is to make it illegal for them to pay too little or compromise workers' health.
The principal good I think unions bring is whistleblowing. Not quite sure how you replace that. It's too easy to stamp down on the troublemakers otherwise (though I note that doctors and other medical staff that are hounded for exposing malpractice didn't seem to get much union help).
I don't mean whistleblowing on e.g. these people are committing securities fraud. I mean exposing systemic worker exploitation that can easily be covered up e.g. unsafe practices, discrimination due to the imbalance of power.
LoL at 3-Ducks view from Mayfair of the working man. It's like a Flanders and Swann sketch.
It's certainly launched a few local politicians but I have noticed that generally the people who get involved in union management are so rubbish that don't selected to be an MP. Some of them also rather enjoy running their own little fifedom and being important in their own right.
on public v private sector. - I suppose it's just a fact that average public sector pay is higher than average private sector pay. and that tax rates could be lower if public sector pay rise are restrained.
Thing about unions is the mentality. It’s for people who consider it impossible to ascend so they dig in and make life a conflict. Embrace risk/reward, grind, innovate, fail harder then attain true dolla altitude.
I don't know UK Power Networks ensure we all have electricity but I don't think they are considered public sector employees. The people who supply my heating oil perform are rather important task but are definitely not public sector.
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Unpopular opinion - people who care about politics the most tend to be left-wing, and they're left-wing because they own low salaries, and they hate people who have wealth or who earn more money than them, despite wanting more money themselves.
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cos un4tun7ly a vocal minority r self-interested arrogant twots who mistakenly believe that they earned their wealth and will do nething they can 2 grasp onto it while pulling up the ladder on a totally shortsighted basis
eg: rof’s entire tozzombie community
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I would support doubling teacher pay if it was linked to a) higher entry standards, b) performance related assessment, c) swift removal from the profession of low performers.
alas, the unions won’t agree
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Clergs, what like train drivers? I am all for giving Drs, nurses , and care workers 20% uplift in pay. The problem is most care homes are private enterprises and PE backed, there is no incentive to give these rises.
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Oracle why is onto not on2?
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That’s not an unpopular opinion, Obese, it’s a moronic opinion.
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because thatcher gulled so many people into thinking unions are evil
brits are in a double bind - we are averse to investment and entrepreneurship and always think as employees, but we don’t organise like employees should
look at the way the christmas-voting turkeys on here; who would manifestly benefit from effective union representation, actually talk about unions
people still believe Thatcher’s lies that unions were the root of some pervasive evil
1
1
There’s an unfortunate, but thankfully minority, view that delivering chemotherapy and teaching children literacy are as important as drafting privacy policies or negotiating disclosure letters.
Hopefully we won’t see this become a majority view and instead can see other societally critical jobs, such as personal injury solicitors, recover from their recent financial malaise and needless fripperies which are too often are still well paid, like surgeons, stop being a needless drain on the hardworking taxpayer.
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I'm a proud Union man, but in the Liberal rather than the Socialist tradition of Trade Unions.
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Risky's experience of his first career in education showing through there. Or is it an offshore "expert" with no stake in the game trotting out right wing dogma?
The issue is UK unions are typically piss takers who put up people like Len McCluskey and his GF in grace and favour flats in london and protect insiders rather than protect workers' rights generally. Contrast with e.g. German and Dutch unions that are pragmatic because they are baked into significant corporate decisions and have a common goal ethos.
Weak politicians have also failed to flag that public sector pensions are no longer "gold plated", typically based on career average and probably roughly what they should demand off all private employers to deal with the unaffordability of a state pension long term.
All this means it's easy to suggest they are doing well anyway and have no business doing this when others are not getting payrises. There's probably also an element of Britishness in not asking for payrises individually, so it's galling when someone else is blatantly demanding them.
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1
The dichtomy of a union doesnt really work in the public sector - there is no common goal between owner and employee, because the state can never go bust and it needs to deliver services for services sake - the union can always ask for more and more because they dont have to worry about the business going bust and can hold those services hostage. It relies on the unionists being sensible and not-self interested. I dont really think there is fundamentally a difference between a unionist and investment banker - both will take as much as they can given the opportunity.
It actually works better in a german style private set up as set out above - one stakeholder that has an interest in the business doing well, achieving a fair share for its members - they dont want to take too much as the business loses investment or becomes unprofitable and everyone loses their job, but at the same time they are part of the decision making process.
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I’m a proud union man. But in the socialist tradition of trade unions, which was the means through which nearly everything achieved by british trades unions was accomplished.
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Unions in the UK in the 21st century are a disgrace and should be banned, especially so in the public sector for the reasons billybob gives.
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Aye aye, here come the turkeys for the christmas referendum, clown car honking all the way
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Because it’s an ugly, jealous, backstabbing society full of bitter tw@s.
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^ First against the wall
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Having the workers rights represented isnt necessarily a bad thing - you have to recognise your repsonsibility towards your staff and not simply view them as a cost - thats why i do actually think the german model is pretty good - its designed to prevent the more egregious examples of one guy at the top making a gazillion pounds versus thousands of foot soldiers making nothing - if the footsoldiers have stake, the guy at the top might make just-less than a gazillion pounds, but still minted, and foot soldiers have a better quality of life.
Not total equality obviously, guy at the time will have a much higher skill base and risk profile than an unskilled worker (im not a communist) but you have to look after your troops and they look after you.
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I'm surprised that nobody has commented upon the implications for this issue of the yawning gap between the affluent parts of Britain and the less affluent parts of Britain.
A £32k primary teacher annual pay in Greater London seems not very much. By comparison the same annual pay in Blackpool can seem like quite a lot.
I think some of the reversal of the politics of the UK that we have witnessed over the past decade is related to this issue. In affluent parts of the UK the average voter thinks that public sector works are underpaid. In less affluent parts of the UK this is not the case. The difference is that average incomes and property prices are different in the two parts of the UK.
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A state employer has the power of legislating to ban unions. This is what should have happened in SE transport as it is a de facto utility given that the car is not a viable alternative. State employment unions also have the benefit of collective bargaining across tens of thousands of workers.
It's a joke that a bent vote chasing govt guarantees retirees a triple locked pension but doesn't triple lock state employees' wages, if that is the measure of decency. Ultimately if you curtail the gig economy BS, have decent employment laws, a living minimum wage and a triple lock mandatory uprating of it then unions should become irrelevant/
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Bananaman I doubt the unions would think themselves irrelevant and disband at that point.
I'm in the unfortunate position where I am not permitted to join a union or go on strike.
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That’s true and it’s why I as a doctor would never bother with trying to live in the south of England
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I would never voluntarily join a union as I don't want my employment to be a bargaining chip for someone to advance their political career at my expense.
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heh, Sails you are such a perfect chump
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Yes I love paying money to the Law Society so that a few dicks who weren't very good at law can segue into politics through a paid role which I fund. They've never asked me what I care about or what they might be able to do for me and have achieved nothing for me.
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You mean apart from the Liberal government which gave them legal protection through the Trade Union 1871; the Liberal MPs who championed workers' representation in Parliament (not least Keir Hardie himself, who started as a Liberal); the creation of the Reform League, which was subsidised by the Liberal Party; etc etc.
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oh, the Law Society is fully a pile of shite, I agree
has it ever launched anyone’s political career tho?
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I don’t begrudge anyone 🧘♂️
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Who said "employers good"? Obvs they are going to go for the lowest common denominator. The trick is to make it illegal for them to pay too little or compromise workers' health.
The principal good I think unions bring is whistleblowing. Not quite sure how you replace that. It's too easy to stamp down on the troublemakers otherwise (though I note that doctors and other medical staff that are hounded for exposing malpractice didn't seem to get much union help).
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No, "whistleblowing" - when genuine - is extremely uncommon.
The principal good that Unions bring is ensuring that working men and women aren't exploited by their employers, and can earn a decent wage.
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I don't mean whistleblowing on e.g. these people are committing securities fraud. I mean exposing systemic worker exploitation that can easily be covered up e.g. unsafe practices, discrimination due to the imbalance of power.
LoL at 3-Ducks view from Mayfair of the working man. It's like a Flanders and Swann sketch.
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It's certainly launched a few local politicians but I have noticed that generally the people who get involved in union management are so rubbish that don't selected to be an MP. Some of them also rather enjoy running their own little fifedom and being important in their own right.
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which essential workers are you talking about?
I don't think GPs need a pay rise.
on public v private sector. - I suppose it's just a fact that average public sector pay is higher than average private sector pay. and that tax rates could be lower if public sector pay rise are restrained.
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individual for individual, public sector workers do more important work than private
that’s just a fact that some basic tory thinkbots find hard to take
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Thing about unions is the mentality. It’s for people who consider it impossible to ascend so they dig in and make life a conflict. Embrace risk/reward, grind, innovate, fail harder then attain true dolla altitude.
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I don't know UK Power Networks ensure we all have electricity but I don't think they are considered public sector employees. The people who supply my heating oil perform are rather important task but are definitely not public sector.
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Full disclosure. I own shares in Starbucks and would happily see their union issues away.
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