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White Working Class Boys
Donny Darko's … 25 Feb 19 09:53
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/02/24/white-working-class-boys-now-far-behind-classmates-should-given/

'By 16, the average GCSE score for white boys on free school meals is just 29.5, compared to 40.5 for Asian disadvantaged boys, based on their  score for eight GCSEs'

"Women are now 35% more likely than men to go to university and the gap is widening every year."

Nobody is even bothering to track the impact of this on opportunity in the workplace as far as I can see, let alone trying to address it.  No diversity points to be had in hiring a white male whatever his socio-economic background.  

Is it any wonder so many young white working class men seem so angry?

 

They’ve been angry since 1945 m3, if not before. They were sent over the top by the toffs, and got nothing in return. They’re suspicious of education and anyone from their background improving themselves. They’re their own worst enemies. Oh, and they hate darkies. Is no wonder the world has left them behind. 

completely agree, madders, it is a catastrophe waiting to happen

I don't understand how people can be so unempathetic as to berate young men for feeling frantic about this

not sure what the solution is, though, we are in an increasingly feminised economy

Except it's not a case of less of an innate advantage any more,  it's an active disadvantage as the stats very clearly show (as does the knee jerk prejudice on this thread).

Class is a much more important factor than race in the UK in determining outcomes and for those growing up in the UK now being male and working class is (statistically) pretty much the single biggest disadvantage you can have in terms of educational attainment at school level/chances of going to on to further education.  Our schools are systematically failing white working class boys and pretty much nobody is prepared to do or even say anything about it because it is just met with p1ssy memes from halfwits on the internet.

In case you haven't noticed (and why would you have being that you don't live in the UK), the white British working class is too busy getting pissed in the pub and moaning about foreigners to improve their lot. It is why we got Brexit.

Hire a white British labourer and a foreign one. See who works harder. You can bet that those who work harder are instilling that work ethic into their children, while the working class Brit probably tells their offspring that the world owes them everything and that all fo their problems are due to too many foreigners.

Sorry, but not sorry.

Isnt it obvious why this problem has arisen?  White male working class life revolved around physical labour which paid enough (by the standards of the time) to provide for their families.    The economy has massively shifted such that the demand for this sort of work has dropped off a cliff.  The new jobs that have replaced them require education and skills that no longer give these men any advantage in the workplace or relative pay is very very low.   Unfortunately working class culture (for example the view that education is not that important) hasn't shifted fast enough for men.

It's also interesting to see that Supes apparently regards the female CEO of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission a men's rights activist for raising the issue.

 

And it isn't a uniquely British problem either. Much of Trumpism is based on the same mindset. When you've been on top for so long equality feels like oppression.

 

comparisons with even 2nd or 3rd generation migrants are misleading because migrants tend to be self-selecting.    Migrants and their descendants are nearly always far more motivated then the people they left behind, the white working class are the left behind. 

Fvcks sake Supes generalizing much, you cheeky fvcking khunt?  That is quite literally my family you are talking about there! Try writing that last one again with any other race than white.

 

 

Can't be arsed to dig my thread out on this but it is kinda summed up by stixta's comment. 

Stix you were grammar school right? I don't see how you can be all "yeah fooking white males with all your privileges, woe is you" when loads of these working classes (white or black) are properly properly fooked.

 

It's fooking sad and lumping in poor males with the middle class whites who actually had all the benefits isn't cool. Get fooked 

I'll try and keep this brief. 

Never had anything but support and goodwill from friends and old work colleagues for my modest academic "achievements". No one wants to be working class. It's fooking shit. In my experience, when one of you gets out, by and large everyone else is pleased for you. 

I've come across the odd "university of life" bore. But they've been very few and far between. 

Not a chance I'd even try it these days. The debt alone would have terrified me. And I see my old comp has deteriorated since I was there. I suspect the figures will get worse. 

If there was another race than white who has so dominated the world in which they live who are now being forced to share their power then I would. The white race in Europe has had every advantage going for centuries. It a bit rich for them to start complaining now that they have to share.

Supes of your parents are thick as shit and you have zero support at home and schools are fooked, how the fook are you supposed to get your own ideas these days. 

 

I was probably the last generation where you could crawl out of the gutter.  This is the result of generations of under investment and dilution of effort and attempt at improving 

how does split between Scotland and England? (obviously Scotland not included in the figures because GCSE is not a thing)

Scotland has always been a bit more into education and social mobility than England so would be interesting to see if that is just a "feeling" or if the stats are actually better. 

"Supes of your parents are thick as shit and you have zero support at home and schools are fooked, how the fook are you supposed to get your own ideas these days."

 

The same way that minorities have had to do it for centuries.

it is amazing how many fairly stupid people think they managed to "get where they are today" because they are somehow better (not sure by what measure) than the people living hopeless lives on benefits.

Supes you're not comparing like with like. 

 

Minorities that came over came from middle classes and had that gumption and history of achievement 

Compare the white dirt poor lower classes with the indian slum dwellers or the dirt poor or Mexico where education had never been a thing 

Most people get where they are due to luck and how they choose to use that luck.

I just can't work up the bothered to care about a group that has had an historical abundance of luck now finding itself out of luck.

Maybe I could if they weren't so quick to blame their problems on other people.

Going further back, my parents had jobs (police officer and nurse) that it would be almost impossible for people from their background to do now. They were both raised in council houses by working poor parents, and left school at 15 and 16 respectively.  My father had no O levels, my mum had 2. Their parents were loving and supportive (for post war parents) but the idea of higher education was pie in the sky  

They both reached pretty senior positions in their professions, as did many of their schoo friends in similar situations. I just don't think that would happen for most people like them now. 

How about comparing the white dirt poor with the non-white dirt poor in the UK? Which group would you rather be in? Which group do you think has more of an advantage?

How about comparing the white dirt poor with the non-white dirt poor in the UK? Which group would you rather be in? Which group do you think has more of an advantage?

Are you hard of thinking or hard of reading Supes? 

yes

if you can't imagine that the psychological suffering created by an awful situation might be compounded by the smug assertion that you are to blame for it

then, sir, you are a doublefud

linda, genuinely curious--why is that the case? I can see why a blue-collar wage may no longer be a "livable wage" (at least not to the extent it once was) but you seem to be saying that the positions/promotions themselves are no longer acessible?

Indeed Supes, if facts and statistics aren't going to convince you to change your views there probably isn't much point in debating it with you.

#checkouthisprejudices

Clergies, the trope of the lazy black/Mexican/Spaniard/Italian is as old as time. The non-white poor have been subjected to dreadful tedes screaming that it's all their own fault for centuries.

And how did ordinary members of minorities do that Supes?  Did it by any chance involve structural change and government support to fix bits of the structure that were failing them?  Or was it by over privileged khuntweasels telling them to suck it up and sort it out themselves?

Talking about the 'white race' in Europe having had 'every advantage for centuries' whilst attempting to ignore class is pretty fvcking ignorant as well.  Try telling a miner or iron worker in South Wales in the 19th Century or a farm worker in Ireland in the 18th century that they had every advantage. 

Try telling a  black miner or black iron worker in South Wales in the 19th Century or a black farm worker in Ireland in the 18th century that white miner/Iron worker/farm worker didn't have every advantage vis-a-vis themselves. 

Also Supes you said:

'How about comparing the white dirt poor with the non-white dirt poor in the UK? Which group would you rather be in? Which group do you think has more of an advantage?'

Errm I partly answered this in the opening post which you clearly didn't read before posting a silly picture in response. The answer is that at least in educational terms (at least some of) the non-white dirt poor have the advantage.

'By 16, the average GCSE score for white boys on free school meals is just 29.5, compared to 40.5 for Asian disadvantaged boys, based on their  score for eight GCSEs'

And frankly I think with the exception of some black inner city communities the answer often is that the non-white groups have the advantage. They still have thriving community institutions (based both around worship and ethnicity), a sense of identity that they are actively encouraged to be proud of.  Numerous groups actively working to promote opportunity for them.

 

 

 

 

Ok well yes, I do care about the life chances of boys like my father and uncles, whose lives will probably turn out significantly worse than those of similar men 60 years ago. 

 

Supes - there were essentially no black iron workers in south wales in the 19th Century and I strongly suspect you could count the number of black farm workers in Ireland in the 18th century on the fingers of two hands.  You are not making any sense.  You are also being a total penis.

 

That's probably because most of the black workers in the "western" world in the 19th and 18th centuries were working as slaves on a plantation somewhere in the Americas.

Ok, interesting points on here (with the exception of Bam - I don’t think telling someone to get fooked really helps debate). I take back my original flippant comment.

Moving on, how much do you think Blair’s “I want everyone to go to university” policy added to the situation? Now you need a degree for any job at all, only obtainable at great cost and limited benefit.

Every young kid goes to school with the same teachers. Some do well at exams, some don't. Nothing to do with race. I started off in a state school, then went to a grammar, then universities, blah blah...

Like most on here probably.

Am I supposed to apologise for being a white male? Short answer to that one.

I guess when it comes to helping people, we should consider the awful things done by their ancestors in the, sometimes very distant, past and not how we can build a better society for all. 

Chambers25 Feb 19 10:54

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Every young kid goes to school with the same teachers. Some do well at exams, some don't. Nothing to do with race.

 

 

 

shit, now you've got me into the thread you bastard. I cannot resist taking issue with this.

 

You utter cretin.  That level of ignorant statement makes me angry.

Supes, how do you manage to so unfailingly embody the stereotypical Berkeley Dem who hates the poor if they're the wrong colour/gender/sexual orientation?

I'm starting to think you're actually Vladimir from a Vladivostok troll farm IRL. 

Chambo you need to read some of the findings of the Social Mobility Commission. Whatever you think of this sort of initiative, the empirical data in their annual reports tells a concerning story which directly contradicts your statement.  It is, in fact, that sort of ignorant assertion that is at the root of the lack of progress. A white, male, arrogant and complacent auntocracy just says it's not an issue.  

Sorry Clergs, no. I read Chambo as saying success at school has nothing to do with race and take issue with that and you say be quiet.
The correlation between race, socioeconomic progression and educational attainment has been very clearly demonstrated over the past 50 years.

Whether it was better to be slave in Americas in the 19th century or a peasant in Ireland at that time probably depends on whether or not we are talking about during the potato famine tbh.  Neither life offered any opportunity or indeed anything much beyond suffering and early death.  Outside of the famine the Irish peasant worker had it somewhat better for sure but I am not really sure why that means we shouldn't give a fvck about the life chances of the decedents of the Irish peasants. 

 

 

Well Stix I'm not too sure flippancy aids debate either yknow. 

Also being flippant on a pretty serious topic... I'm surprised that I'm managing to stop at "get fooked" to be honest 

hello re Ireland the answer to my south carolina question is "Irish indentured servants"

and the answer to what would happen to them if they tried to escape is "awful things"

hierarchies are dumb

lol@social crusader muttley

imagine him with his school tie around his head like rambo

and more importantly what clerghs said. Quite why a misery top trumps amongst long since dead people who all lived basically utterly miserable lives is relevant is a something of a mystery.

What historical wrong has a 15 year old in the Midlands done that he deserves not to have skills, training, employment or a fulfilling life?

Not following 

Thanks for that random attack Muttley. Probably a short answer to that one too.

I think Supes is American and went to one of the most prestigious universities in the US. So he must have passed a few exams. My point. Trailer trash over there didn't.

You actually believe that don't you?  What wronging did a boy born to a second generation unemployed family in Swansea in 1990 do exactly? 

Even if we are getting into the sins of the fathers thing what wrong did his great, great grand parents who worked in the mines of South Wales and the fields of Ireland do that he should be punished for?

 

 

 

Well spotted ???  I am sure that makes a huge difference to the underlying point.  Just add another 'great' before grand parents.  Actually sorry, I said south wales, probably better add another two 'greats' before grand parents....

And a "heh!" at the "black miner or black iron worker in South Wales in the 19th Century".  Those weren't really people of African heritage, Supes, they were pretty much without exception white boyos with dirty faces (bit like the black and white mistrels who were also predominantly Welsh IIRC)

 

The Swansea lad is a member of a group that had historical advantages over other groups. The disadvantages that those other groups faced were largely due to the historical actions of the Swansea lads group.

The other group is having its disadvantages removed, so members of the Swansea lad's group is now playing on a level playing field. Unfortunately Swansea lad's group has had it comparatively easier so perhaps they didn't have the imperative to develop certain skills or work ethics. When faced with equal competition they will naturally fall behind.

If you have two runners in a race, and one runner has a weight tied around his ankle, the unencumbered runner doesn't have to run as fast to still stay ahead of the weighted runner. Take the weight off and the originally unweighted runner will be quickly caught up and passed until such time as he adjusts his pace.

It is a bit shit for the Swansea lad, as he probably isn't old enough to have enjoyed the previously held advantage, but his work ethic would have been learned from his parents, who may have enjoyed it, and may not be equal to the work ethic of the child who learned it from his previously disadvantaged parents.

As long as the measures taken to level the playing field aren't overdone it should all balance out in the end. But I just can't get worked up about the difficulties faced by a group coming to grips with the historical advantages that it has enjoyed, especially when that group has a tendency to blame the other for the respective change in its position.

Errm I said his parents were second generation unemployed (which is very common in parts of Swansea). You can pretty much take it as read that his parents enjoyed fvck all.  They will have been brought up when industry in south Wales was being destroyed and there were absolutely fvck all opportunities.

Lots of other people who have very little in common with him or his parents or grandparents other than the colour of their skin enjoyed lots of advantages. Their kids will tend to be thriving.  This boy and hundreds of thousands like him are not.

In part that is because the 'measures taken to level the playing field' were applied by reference to the colour of people's skin alone and not by whether or not they actually had access to the perceived advantages.  The result which was inevitable that this group is now falling so far behind that it is becoming a major social problem. But hey, lets not worry about that. Let's take the p1ss, post stupid pictures on the internet and write off anyone who IS worried about it as some sort of red pill nutter regardless of what they are saying (or indeed even if they are female and the head of a equalities commission it seems) if they have the audacity to be concerned about a group that happens to have the same skin colour as most people in power then they are clearly scumbags.

Fvck that and fvck you frankly.

 

The comparison with Asian boys is unhelpful because, as Guy pointed out, the children of immigrants (particularly Asian immigrants) come from a mindset where you literally move continents to make a better life for yourself if that's what it takes. They are indeed "self-selecting". (Example: my friend who is second generation Indian/Pakistani. Dad is a car mechanic in Manchester, Mum came over from Pakistan to marry his Dad - arranged marriage - has never worked and still doesn't speak English fluently. All three children are now doctors.)

White working class British children come from families who didn't move for a better life (even if they might have had the motivation and drive, they already lived in a country people want to move to). They just needed to be able to earn a living doing the same unskilled job for 40 years. Now thanks to globalisation, a changing economy and increasing automation, those jobs are fewer, not as well paid as they use to be, and often done by immigrants.

Those people are being left behind and they don't have the skills to do anything about it. And the change is more obvious for the boys/men, because the girls/women traditionally would have stayed at home to have babies, and they still are. 

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