It won't be possible to avoid such incidents. In fact almost inevitably some kid will be knocked off and badly hurt who had done no more than pinch a scooter in an entirely non-violent way or be riding without insurance or whatever. Certainly some pedestrian will be hurt at some point.
But you have to look at the alternative which was these gangs acting with absolute impunity knowing that removing their helmet was enough to stop a chase. That was costing lives on a regular basis and something needed to be done about it.
Welcome to real world Diane where decisions are sometimes difficult and perfect options do not exist.
You can use that argument to justify hanging for stealing a loaf of bread - I am not saying you are wrong but the "if you don't want x punishment don't commit y crime" can be used to justify any clearly disproportionate responses to crime.
A better analogy would be if you attempt a robbery and wave a gun or even an imitation gun around then there is at least a chance that you will get shot in the commission of that crime.
No one is suggesting that the penalty for armed robberies should be death.
Specially trained officers using approved albeit extreme methods to end a dangerously high speed chase in a pedestrian congested area in order to defend the public from potentially greater danger has been accepted for decades. This just shines a light on it because the type of crime has increased thus they have had to resort to risky measures more frequently.
I thought they were trained to do it in such a way to minimise risk of serious injury (yes should have caveated my post above) - difficult to see how knocking somebody off a motorbike can achieve this.
I have to say, I was pretty shocked when I saw the video footage. The police setting out to deliberately crash into someone doesn't sit right with me. And i'm not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.
Moped generally can’t do more than around 60 anyway. With the wind behind them. These guys are driving fast on straights but slowing considerably to turn etc. A high powered police vehicle can surely out-accelerate that slowdown on turn to tap them at the slowest possible speeds I’d have thought. I rode motorbikes plenty in the past and even superhigh powered monsters need to drop to a crawl very temporarily for a 90 degree street corner turn.
Guy I think it's a little similar to what they teach at speed awareness with regard to the fact that if you hit an adult it will end up on your bonnet but if you hit a child it will bounce off the front of the car away from you. From the footage it looks like the police are trying to do it in such manner that the rider lands on the bonnet of the police car rather than being launched onto the road with the risk of then being run over by the police car. Clearly it's not a precise science and there's no guarantee of what will actually happen.
police are certainly capable of handling these scrotes but not if they are given conflicting objectives. They can’t guarantee 100% safety AND take aggressive action - there is a risk to pursuits and inspectors who authorise chases and police drivers who do them can lose their careers if anything happens even by accident
I think it was last tuesday when that met police video was released. I'd had a bit of a cr@p day, bit hungover, argument with boss, was raining, stepped in dogsh*t, etc. But on seeing the video its like the clouds lifted and the sun came out. Nothing, literally nothing, makes me happier than seeing chav scum getting the sh*t kicked out of them
Theres some suggestion that the coppers under investigation here either werent part of the official team or were in some other way not following the agreed protocols.
So far I can’t see anyone objecting to the tactic mentioning alternative tactics or does getting on a moped render one temporarily invulnerable to police action?
Do we also object to getaway cars being brought to an abrupt halt on the basis that the crim might not be wearing a seatbelt?
I don't want an american style paramilitary police force whose ends always justify the means. On top of that, the Met in particular does not have a great reputation for acting reasonably.
Do they currently ram cars to stop them? Or do the use, i.e. stingers etc?
It won't be possible to avoid such incidents. In fact almost inevitably some kid will be knocked off and badly hurt who had done no more than pinch a scooter in an entirely non-violent way or be riding without insurance or whatever.
Said kid would also be refusing to stop and actively speeding away from the police, often using pavements and putting others at risk. The police aren't just ramming into scooters without trying to stop them peacefully first.
Radically kids can avoid this totally be either not stealing scooters in the first place or not stealing them and then using them in violent crimes. In fact it seems that some have already decided that the benefits from scooter enabled crime do not warrant the risk of being knocked off and injured.
don't you just pursue them with a police bike and/or helicopter until you box them in etc?
I'm kind of surprised we're not buzzing drones all over the place with thermal cameras or dna sprays or something
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for the poor widdle criminal but I trust the police, the home office and the government about as far as I can spit them and they're not "policing with (my) consent" if they think they can just go around ramming things with police cars to make it all better
Sumo don't think we have many police motorbikes and even if they chase then into a dead end you'll often have one policeman from his motorbike then trying to pursue two or possibly more people on foot. The helicopter works well but the Met only have two so have to prioritise their use. Drones surely have the downside that the pilot needs to be in the area with his drone as things kick off?
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Aren't the police who do this specially trained? Should be possible to avoid such incidents.
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It won't be possible to avoid such incidents. In fact almost inevitably some kid will be knocked off and badly hurt who had done no more than pinch a scooter in an entirely non-violent way or be riding without insurance or whatever. Certainly some pedestrian will be hurt at some point.
But you have to look at the alternative which was these gangs acting with absolute impunity knowing that removing their helmet was enough to stop a chase. That was costing lives on a regular basis and something needed to be done about it.
Welcome to real world Diane where decisions are sometimes difficult and perfect options do not exist.
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Wot cookie said
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Wot strutter said
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You can use that argument to justify hanging for stealing a loaf of bread - I am not saying you are wrong but the "if you don't want x punishment don't commit y crime" can be used to justify any clearly disproportionate responses to crime.
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Not quite the same thing though is it?
A better analogy would be if you attempt a robbery and wave a gun or even an imitation gun around then there is at least a chance that you will get shot in the commission of that crime.
No one is suggesting that the penalty for armed robberies should be death.
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Specially trained officers using approved albeit extreme methods to end a dangerously high speed chase in a pedestrian congested area in order to defend the public from potentially greater danger has been accepted for decades. This just shines a light on it because the type of crime has increased thus they have had to resort to risky measures more frequently.
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I think it is more that people are uncomfortable with the idea of the police intentionally causing road collisions
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They’ve not said anything much about them in the 25 years or so since it became a trained police procedure, why grumble now?
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I thought they were trained to do it in such a way to minimise risk of serious injury (yes should have caveated my post above) - difficult to see how knocking somebody off a motorbike can achieve this.
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I have to say, I was pretty shocked when I saw the video footage. The police setting out to deliberately crash into someone doesn't sit right with me. And i'm not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.
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Moped generally can’t do more than around 60 anyway. With the wind behind them. These guys are driving fast on straights but slowing considerably to turn etc. A high powered police vehicle can surely out-accelerate that slowdown on turn to tap them at the slowest possible speeds I’d have thought. I rode motorbikes plenty in the past and even superhigh powered monsters need to drop to a crawl very temporarily for a 90 degree street corner turn.
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Guy I think it's a little similar to what they teach at speed awareness with regard to the fact that if you hit an adult it will end up on your bonnet but if you hit a child it will bounce off the front of the car away from you. From the footage it looks like the police are trying to do it in such manner that the rider lands on the bonnet of the police car rather than being launched onto the road with the risk of then being run over by the police car. Clearly it's not a precise science and there's no guarantee of what will actually happen.
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police are certainly capable of handling these scrotes but not if they are given conflicting objectives. They can’t guarantee 100% safety AND take aggressive action - there is a risk to pursuits and inspectors who authorise chases and police drivers who do them can lose their careers if anything happens even by accident
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I think it was last tuesday when that met police video was released. I'd had a bit of a cr@p day, bit hungover, argument with boss, was raining, stepped in dogsh*t, etc. But on seeing the video its like the clouds lifted and the sun came out. Nothing, literally nothing, makes me happier than seeing chav scum getting the sh*t kicked out of them
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great
let's just bring in sharia law and be done with it, every conservative in the country is already in favour
We can start chopping off the hands of home less food bank shoplifters on April 1st if we're quick
I mean raming people with cars is already page 14 of the ISIS playbook
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Deeply unpleasant class hate there Flasheart
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And once more but without the hyperbole this time what would your approach be to dealing with this very real and dangerous problem sumo?
Never engage?
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Sumo last time I checked the police don't ram people with cars stuffed full of explosives before then detonating the car...
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The country is going fooking mad - it is self evident police should not be purposely knocking people off motorbikes. FFS
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I am with flashy on this.
Theres some suggestion that the coppers under investigation here either werent part of the official team or were in some other way not following the agreed protocols.
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So far I can’t see anyone objecting to the tactic mentioning alternative tactics or does getting on a moped render one temporarily invulnerable to police action?
Do we also object to getaway cars being brought to an abrupt halt on the basis that the crim might not be wearing a seatbelt?
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I don't want an american style paramilitary police force whose ends always justify the means. On top of that, the Met in particular does not have a great reputation for acting reasonably.
Do they currently ram cars to stop them? Or do the use, i.e. stingers etc?
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They can ram and also use stingers, but in either event it could be quite unpleasant for an unbelted crim.
Now answer the question about how you would deal with an escaping crim on a scooter driving dangerously if a tap from a car is out.
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Said kid would also be refusing to stop and actively speeding away from the police, often using pavements and putting others at risk. The police aren't just ramming into scooters without trying to stop them peacefully first.
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Radically kids can avoid this totally be either not stealing scooters in the first place or not stealing them and then using them in violent crimes. In fact it seems that some have already decided that the benefits from scooter enabled crime do not warrant the risk of being knocked off and injured.
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don't you just pursue them with a police bike and/or helicopter until you box them in etc?
I'm kind of surprised we're not buzzing drones all over the place with thermal cameras or dna sprays or something
I don't have a great deal of sympathy for the poor widdle criminal but I trust the police, the home office and the government about as far as I can spit them and they're not "policing with (my) consent" if they think they can just go around ramming things with police cars to make it all better
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Sumo don't think we have many police motorbikes and even if they chase then into a dead end you'll often have one policeman from his motorbike then trying to pursue two or possibly more people on foot. The helicopter works well but the Met only have two so have to prioritise their use. Drones surely have the downside that the pilot needs to be in the area with his drone as things kick off?
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What about harpoons mounted on the top of police cars ?
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