That we were an irrelevant poor little island on the edge of a prosperous world trading block and it might be an idea if we benefited from joining in the way so many countries had done before us.
Because I believe in free trade with few barriers, so entering a massive free trade area and harmonising our laws and regulations with all of our closest neighbours seems like a good idea.
You're king of making the mistake of thinking that the UK would be in a similar position to where it is now without having had the benefit of EU membership for the last 40+ years.
Guy's attempt to correct you appears to have been studiously ignored.
where do i make the mistake of thinking that the uk would be in a similar position to where it is now?
it could be better, it could be worse. i mention the trades deals we will probably have done, but i make no representations as to the quality of those deals.
The positive argument would be that, having missed out on the benefits for the last 40 years, we could finally join a powerful trading bloc and aspire to similar levels of prosperity as the rest of Europe. Better late than never. Who knows, given the right conditions, global businesses wanting an English speaking HQ for their EU operations might even be persuaded to pick the UK over Ireland.
OK, thats a good argument. I was personally always in favour of the EU as a tradingarrangement and, lets face it, thats what we joined way back when.
Not that it matters for the purpose of this thread, but the argument that you make is a little bit like so many economists projections.....they assume that the UK would have done nothing to mitigate the costs/frictions caused by Brexit. i.e. they account for the problems, but ignore the opportunities. the problems are obviously easier to quantify, but that doesn't make such projections any mor reliable
Flasheart, the question is counterfactual so you will only ever get a hypotheticaI answer. I think the best we can do is compare the economic progress of countries before/after joining the EU and surmise that the projectory of the UK had it not joined would have followed the former. There is a reason nearly every country that is eligible has either joined or tied itself very closely to the EU.
sure, but its a hypothetical question so i'm happy with a hypothetical answer
out of interest, if there's a reason why nearly every country eligible has joined, why do you think the same model hasn't been done elsewhere. South east asia for example
I assume that if WTO rules are good enough for trade with the EU, or the best we could have managed then these are the rules we would have with most other major markets, perhaps some former colonies would have preferable deals.
I assume all other current members are members. I assume there are no other significant changes between 1990 (when the world really started reopening) and now, i.e. no free movement of people treaty between nigeria and UK.
So what would we argue, considering the direction of the country in the 70s vs the direction of the country in the 80s. So essentially the UK would look like Turkey today though probably more stable, i.e. in a good position but a bit over looked and punching below its weight.
Freedom, from a stifiling myoptic Westminster with a London centric view. Freedom to move and work and enforce your rights against 31 countires in Europe, which would include Ireland which I imagine may have done even better than it has as the main english speaking market of europe.
Free trade, with the world's biggest free trading bloc, free movement of capital across that block and easy access to cheaper goods in the bloc. Recall we trade on WTO terms so likely there are significant tarrif barriers to protect at least agriculture and possibly manufacturing as were in place pre EU membership. This would be further enhanced by the simplification on doing business that aligning UK consumer regulations with europe would entail.
Economic jump start. Compare i.e. switzerland which saw a relative decline post it's decision not to join the EU and was the catalyst for creating the bi lateral treaties.
A make britain great again mantra perhaps, economic resurgence would restore some national pride and a sense that britain mattered on the world stage instead of being in the basket of nice by not important with canada, australia etc.
Ease of cultural exchange. possibly we would be in schengen if joining now and it is far more convenient to go schengen to schengen than it is to go UK to schengen now.
A bigger area for our fishermen, though to be honest I don't think fishing matters anywhere close to the proportion of the news attention it gets.
What it ultimately comes down to is do you want to be a backwards looking terrified old man like Flasheart constantly hoping that Trump will come and save you from the horror of progress or do you want to walk tall in the sun and compete on a fair playing field with your historic friends and allies. Nobody can live in the cage of conservative fear for any length of time.
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That we were an irrelevant poor little island on the edge of a prosperous world trading block and it might be an idea if we benefited from joining in the way so many countries had done before us.
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Because I believe in free trade with few barriers, so entering a massive free trade area and harmonising our laws and regulations with all of our closest neighbours seems like a good idea.
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thats a good reason pancakes. what if it meant we had to unwind all our existing free trade deals?
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What a stupid fooking question.
Stop listening to that Intellectual Dark Web shite and find yourself a hobby.
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Your level of anger is quite unhealthy
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He obv misses SoCal
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What Guy said.
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Your level of achingly cool contrarianism is mind-numbingly tedious
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you wrote something almost identical on the other thread
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I'd argue that i was sick of paying an annual £1000 for a multi entry visa to europe
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so far only Pancakes has managed to give a positive reason for joining
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lol@wellers
Its the EU m4, not the former soviet union
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Come on, there must be a few positive reasons to vote to join The EU
Pancakes made a good start, anyone else?
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You're king of making the mistake of thinking that the UK would be in a similar position to where it is now without having had the benefit of EU membership for the last 40+ years.
Guy's attempt to correct you appears to have been studiously ignored.
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where do i make the mistake of thinking that the uk would be in a similar position to where it is now?
it could be better, it could be worse. i mention the trades deals we will probably have done, but i make no representations as to the quality of those deals.
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Heh.
We would be "an irrelevant poor little island on the edge of a prosperous world trading block", as any fule kno.
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ok, a POSITIVE argument for joining the EU. As opposed to one borne out of fear
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The positive argument would be that, having missed out on the benefits for the last 40 years, we could finally join a powerful trading bloc and aspire to similar levels of prosperity as the rest of Europe. Better late than never. Who knows, given the right conditions, global businesses wanting an English speaking HQ for their EU operations might even be persuaded to pick the UK over Ireland.
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OK, thats a good argument. I was personally always in favour of the EU as a tradingarrangement and, lets face it, thats what we joined way back when.
Not that it matters for the purpose of this thread, but the argument that you make is a little bit like so many economists projections.....they assume that the UK would have done nothing to mitigate the costs/frictions caused by Brexit. i.e. they account for the problems, but ignore the opportunities. the problems are obviously easier to quantify, but that doesn't make such projections any mor reliable
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Flasheart, the question is counterfactual so you will only ever get a hypotheticaI answer. I think the best we can do is compare the economic progress of countries before/after joining the EU and surmise that the projectory of the UK had it not joined would have followed the former. There is a reason nearly every country that is eligible has either joined or tied itself very closely to the EU.
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sure, but its a hypothetical question so i'm happy with a hypothetical answer
out of interest, if there's a reason why nearly every country eligible has joined, why do you think the same model hasn't been done elsewhere. South east asia for example
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ok, so two people (pancakes and LP) have made positive arguments in favour of joining the EU in this hypothetical world.
two.
pretty poor result so far
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Come on Cookie, you of all people should be able to make the case for joining the EU in this hypothetical world
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come on m3, humour me
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You say assume trading on WTO rules. In other words, assume we had given away sovereignty to an unelected foreign body over which we had no control.
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and lets assume we currently trade on WTO rules
I assume that if WTO rules are good enough for trade with the EU, or the best we could have managed then these are the rules we would have with most other major markets, perhaps some former colonies would have preferable deals.
I assume all other current members are members. I assume there are no other significant changes between 1990 (when the world really started reopening) and now, i.e. no free movement of people treaty between nigeria and UK.
So what would we argue, considering the direction of the country in the 70s vs the direction of the country in the 80s. So essentially the UK would look like Turkey today though probably more stable, i.e. in a good position but a bit over looked and punching below its weight.
Freedom, from a stifiling myoptic Westminster with a London centric view. Freedom to move and work and enforce your rights against 31 countires in Europe, which would include Ireland which I imagine may have done even better than it has as the main english speaking market of europe.
Free trade, with the world's biggest free trading bloc, free movement of capital across that block and easy access to cheaper goods in the bloc. Recall we trade on WTO terms so likely there are significant tarrif barriers to protect at least agriculture and possibly manufacturing as were in place pre EU membership. This would be further enhanced by the simplification on doing business that aligning UK consumer regulations with europe would entail.
Economic jump start. Compare i.e. switzerland which saw a relative decline post it's decision not to join the EU and was the catalyst for creating the bi lateral treaties.
A make britain great again mantra perhaps, economic resurgence would restore some national pride and a sense that britain mattered on the world stage instead of being in the basket of nice by not important with canada, australia etc.
Ease of cultural exchange. possibly we would be in schengen if joining now and it is far more convenient to go schengen to schengen than it is to go UK to schengen now.
A bigger area for our fishermen, though to be honest I don't think fishing matters anywhere close to the proportion of the news attention it gets.
What it ultimately comes down to is do you want to be a backwards looking terrified old man like Flasheart constantly hoping that Trump will come and save you from the horror of progress or do you want to walk tall in the sun and compete on a fair playing field with your historic friends and allies. Nobody can live in the cage of conservative fear for any length of time.
Join the discussion