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Let your next career move come to you.

when your child is so gripped by illness he wants to die

What can be done. Nothing can be done.

We have given him the most loving home and family. He has wanted for nothing but has been brought up to understand the balance between comfort and the value of endeavour.  He is gifted and skilled beyond the abilities of many. He could have a future involving soul-nourishing success, perhaps material success if that is important too him, the company of lovely people, loving relationships.  He has beauty and charisma and a warmth that attracts people to him. He has great physical ability - a great sportsman and athlete.  He has a large wider family who love and care for him.  He has achieved so much in his own way, following his own path.

But he is an addict.

We are in a cycle of greater depth of and greater regularity of relapse such that the term relapse seems wrong as recovery is in the minority.  Since in patient rehab in Nov/Dec he seems to have been unable to have more than a week without a big event. Now it is down to 2 or 3 day cycles and they are more aggressive, deeper, more dangerous.  

The pattern is always the same. The day is running along normally then out of the blue he says he has plans. This is a red flag for me because it says that he is planning to relapse and nothing (I mean nothing whatsoever short of physical restraint which is obviously not happening) can stop that train once it has started up.  We ask whether he has an eject option (how to exit a wet place if his "friends" go there, how to get back if let down by others - those who understand recovery will know what this is all about).  He angrily says yes. He explains his timing, arrangements and then when that time has passed he texts to say he is staying out longer. We have access to his bank account now so we can see where he is spending.   Money then starts leaking out from bars, pubs and clubs. He gets taxis to and from every goddam place. One minute he's nearby then he's in London, Guildford, Chichester etc. Who knows.  We pointlessly engage with him trying to make some sense until his phone is turned off and texts or calls are ignored. We then feel tense and anxious knowing the night ahead will be bad.  There is almost always a cross word between us as both of us have nerves on end.  We agree to go to bed and wait.

Sometimes he returns in the night, 4am sort of thing. Sometimes he discovers he has no money or his card or Apple Pay is not working and he pleads with us or a friendly taxi man to find and collect him. I have collected him from a pavement, unconscious, in Elephant and Castle, from car parks and park benches in Chichester or Guildford at 4am on weekdays. I go to work wretched. He sleeps it off and prepares to do it again.
 

We have AA, Al-Anon, Priory post in patient weekly counselling,  an alcohol addiction mentor, a psychiatrist, individual counsellors and therapists (for him and us individually and together) but nothing achieves anything if an addict is so intent on drinking or using.

We are told it is not us, we did not cause it and cannot resolve it. It can only be dealt with by him if he is committed to recovery. He is not. He is committed to non recovery.

His journey has included theft of money from us, gambling, taking loans, spending all his savings, the slow decline to insolvency.  It's costing us all our sanity, our employment, our health and wellbeing, our lives and livelihoods. We have become unreliable to others, have diminished our own lives to wafer thin versions of their former selves.  We have no social life (we are either emergency resolving, recovering some sleep or at home trying to patch him up and take him to AA meetings etc).  Whatever spare there is requires a desperate attempt to recover our own plans - work or friendships. All in tatters. 

he is committed to a path that will kill him.  I am already scenario planning his funeral and conversations with family members about him, how to look after my poor daughter who is equally distressed (she came back from abroad for Easter for a few days all of which were completely disrupted by this). She is scared. We are scared.  How will I find his friends' contact details to let them know when the bad thing happens as it inevitably will? What does a father say when his son slips the grip and is dragged under by the pull of the addiction current? How does life carry forward after that?

All I can say is I'm so, so sorry and have the self-destructive cycle before with others.  A poor of friend of mine as a teenager had to endure her parents doing this and I spent a number of afternoons with her trying to find her mother when she went AWOL.

Heartbreaking and terrifying in equal measure. Sorry you’re having to deal with this. My children aren’t yet at the stage of having much independence but I fear that the years of worrying are just around the corner. I was never much of a drinker/recreational drug user so I can only hope that I’ve passed whatever gene dictates this onto my children.

I wish I had something more helpful to offer you but it sounds like you’re doing everything you can to help your son so don’t feel guilty.

I have dragged him out of wrecked cars (he no longer drives). I have picked him up unconscious, trudged pavements and been in and out of bars and pubs, dragged him, been beaten up by him, knocked unconscious by him in December, kicked on the ground when down, head injury requiring MRI.  I have lost count of the number of times in the last year I have recovered him from danger (walking along the A3 from Guildford at 4am???). He has lost everything - keys, wallet, phone, bag, coats - so many times I don't know. he is burning through the 9 lives, There cannot be many left now. I am grieving in expectation. So, so wretched.

he is 23. He had 4 years of this on a "not in control but not destructive" basis which resulted in us saying why don't you learn to live a bit more balanced, maybe drink less, just the one or a couple now and then not absolutely mental drinking every time.... we thought we had a late blossoming adolescent uni loony on our hands.  No, we had an alcoholic but only realised when he came home in crisis this time last year.  he was in a maelstrom of physical health and stress and finished his degree under some medication and supervision then in the summer  when that was over he started heavy drinking, destructive behaviours. He has one and then cannot stop until a few hours later when he is alone, unconscious.   In November he cut his wrists in our kitchen with a carving knife. or tried to but missed the crucial bits. We got him into in patient treatment the next day.  Since then we have had day in day out terror with sorry and committed 24 hour moments in between which are just retreat before advance once more.  Everything is lies.

"We have AA, Al-Anon, Priory post in patient weekly counselling,  an alcohol addiction mentor, a psychiatrist, individual counsellors and therapists (for him and us individually and together) but nothing achieves anything if an addict is so intent on drinking or using."

Sorry to hear that. I have no word of advice to give. I can see how tricky it is--every admonition, no matter how well-intentioned and genuinely motivated by love, may not do any good at least in the short term in terms of changing his behavior. Ultimately you just need to take solace from the fact that you have given him unconditional love and hope that at some point he recognizes that he needs to help himself.

Muttley, i'm really sorry to read this.  You have been posting about this situation for some time and all I can say is that I have often thought how loving a parent you are - you must be going through hell and I hope that what you most dread doesn't come to pass.

To be honest I don't know why I am posting.  I don't need advice on this. I have so much. I have read books, attended AA and Al-Anon meetings, have a weekly call with a counsellor myself, join  my wife in meeting an addiction counsellor for affected families once a week, join a family zoom session for the families of those in or just out of in-patient therapy every Wednesday, have my own clinical wellbeing assessment monthly to ensure I am fit to stay on the hamster wheel, have some friends and one of my siblings is very helpful.  

Last night we stayed up worried. Then we went to bed after the obligatory venting of our anxieties at each others' cost. Then he returned and disturbed the house at 2am. Then my daughter came in and woke me at 4am worried about life and the issue - she is flying back today and could not sleep for worry about him. Nor could I after that.  I fell asleep on the way in on the train and overslept the arrival at Waterloo. I got off at Woking going back home and had to come back into London and give it another try. Could have been Portsmouth, could have been worse.

I’m sorry to hear that Mutters. No substantive advice except to say my kids are younger than yours and I don;t know if I could cope and function like you do if my family had to go through this. 

 

I hope you can find some time for joy in the midst of this plus other family obligations and work etc. 

 

I know ROF is khuntier than it used to be but in threads like this we’re still a great community and here to listen to you vent/support/sympathize/offer jokes and distraction. 

This is awful.  I knew there was a shadow over your boy, but no idea that it was at this level. As you identify (and as for any addiction) the victim has to want to change. And it has to be a deeply held want, not a remorseful glimpse of clarity. The commitment to recovery could still emerge. I had a friend whose older sister was pretty much a carbon copy of those behaviours.  She had a child, probably to shame her deeply Catholic parents, and handed her off and continued her spiral.  But eventually she did change. Took a long time. She's not a model citizen, nor a great mother.  But she's good enough now. Until there's no hope, there's still hope. 

 

 

Sorry to hear this, Muttley.  He needs to find his rock bottom.  I’d suggest you withdraw the support you are giving him because it’s enabling him, not helping him. It is terrifying to think what that rock bottom will be, but he has to find it himself and then want to be sober. He currently doesn’t want to be sober and no level of support will help him do that.

i took him skiing last week. I drove because he cannot fly (explained RoF passim). I drove from home to Macon in one day, Macon to the Alps, skiing for 3 days together, trying to break a cycle then drove back from Apls to Cambrai (WW1 land) on Good Friday and from there to Calais and home on Sat.   On the Thursday evening he left the appartment to take a bin bag out and I didn't see him again until Friday morning and I drove a sleeping, drunk and angry man up the motorway for 9 hours. The only time he was awake was when I had to punch him to make wake up and do the payage thingummy.  Then Sat and Mon wipeouts.  I got no real holiday out of that but it was intended to help him. It did not.

You With The Face02 Apr 24 10:41

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Sorry to hear this, Muttley.  He needs to find his rock bottom.  I’d suggest you withdraw the support you are giving him because it’s enabling him, not helping him. It is terrifying to think what that rock bottom will be, but he has to find it himself and then want to be sober. He currently doesn’t want to be sober and no level of support will help him do that.

 

 

 

 

This is correct. 

How awful mutters, it must be a terrible terrible thing to watch self destruction like this.   The only possible comfort I can give is that there have been several seemingly irredeemable alcoholics in my family who after dozens of tried and failed attempts at turning their lives around succeeded eventually.

Gosh this is wretched, I'm sorry, you must be exhausted all the time.

Vent away if it's at all helpful and we'll read, care, count our own blessings, and hope for better for you all.

My advice but from both personal and professional experience. Please ignore if it doesn’t resonate.   

I had an indulgent and successful father and drank myself into oblivion on many occasions over many years. One day my father just refused to give me any more money and told me to go to DSS or get another job. At one point I had £1 to last for whole weekend. It was the making of me. It was sink or swim and I swam. I stopped partying. I wandered into a community garden and they gave me a squash. I made a soup which I had never done before and thought about things and returned to the garden. To help. 

It sounds like he has self harmed rather than tried to take his own life.

There are plenty of addicts who address it. It’s up to him. He isn’t special. 

Tell him to get a job, somewhere to live and leave, cut the finance.  It’s up to him to start to genuinely want to address his problems. 

I don’t think you continuing to pay for his unearned holidays will help him. 

This is a sobering thread. What all of the posters here have said. 

Mind boggles as to how you are finding the strength here and what is sustaining the family bond. In some ways this may have brought others closer or may have caused more fissures. 

I am very sorry Mutters. More strength to you and your family. And I sincerely hope he sees the light and realises soon what he has and what he is wasting. Most of all a big bloody hug to you. 

Pretty tragic fella - also all that at only 23? how to you get into such a grip of addiction at that age? Did he start early at school or something? His mates on the same path? 

Sorry to hear this and hope you find some peace with it - as you say you can’t really save someone from themselves if they don’t want to be saved.

This is awful. Just awful. I grew up with an alcoholic step father and still remember the anguish of them going missing or coming back bleeding and the shouting and screaming (fortunately he was never really violent) and the suicide attempts and the endless justifying and normalising of incredibly destructive behaviour. 

You have my sympathy and I can't imagine what you must be going through when it's your son.

For your sake AND his though you have to stop what you are doing. You have to ask him to leave home. You have to stop picking him up in the early hours of the morning. You have to stop funding him (I assume you are funding him).  You can't go on like this. It will destroy all of you and you are enabling him. I know it will be the hardest thing you ever do. I don't know if I could do it in your shoes. I fear I could not. I think you have to try.

I echo what YWTF said about stopping helping/financing your son and him needing to get to a point where he wants to get better.  An ex's brother was in a similarly seemingly-hopeless situation and he eventually did get himself back on a better track.  Good luck. Also what others have said about you needing to look after yourself (and most other things) x

Where did he lose the concept of right and wrong?  As per bob, it would be helpful for the reflections to be shared

Does he actually enjoy socialising with you?  Going awol to get pissed alone suggests the father-son time is not enjoyable for him

Going AWOL is more suggestive of someone who just wants to be able to blot out whatever ails him without anyone he knows there. It's not socialising. It is obliteration, and perhaps a party crowd who give zero fooks to egg him on is a mini-thrill to endorse the behaviour. 

 

Mutters, was he always a bit more headstrong or secretive or rebellious?

 

pie, if you are an alcoholic any time away from drinking is not percieved as "enjoyable" you are just thinking about the next drink.  Would  not matter if mutters and he had the best father relationship iin the world, if he cannot drink with his father  (as per any other situation in which he cannot drink) he will just be looking at ways of getting away so he can.

This sounds extremely harsh but the only people I know like this either have extremely dysfunctional fathers or extremely successful/indulgent fathers.

Obviously you can't prove causation.  It may just be bad luck or there may be a confounding variable/common cause.

I have also known elephants approach to work, but it is a bit of a one way door.

 

 

It's always a hard one trying to understand the causes.  The friend I mentioned above has become a therapist and I think that in part is down to her trying to understand if she's in danger of going the same way has her parents.  Her father divorced his second wife to marry his much younger secretary and retired around that time so found himself socially isolated (seems that the divorce burnt a lot of bridges) and coming to terms with going from being a captain of industry to a nice old chap with a younger wife and small child and at some point crossed the line from enjoying a few drinks over dinner with friends to swigging whisky straight from the bottle at 6am and his wife followed his lead.

There also seems to be focus on achievements/success/comfort in the OP.  I don't think people generally find deep down happiness in achievements/comfort/success.

I am not blaming anyone and I certainly don’t blame my parents.  I am just saying that coming back down to earth was good for me. I still have some of the same very heavy drinking friends but I don’t spend much time with them.  

I'm so so sorry mutters. 

I have nothing useful to say except, do you have the time and emotional space to get a new dog yet...? Because you deserve some comfort.

the next time he assaults you, call the police it might help him to realise he is no longer the victim but the perpetrator

Also, you're old and he's 23. I don't like your odds even if he's incapacitated.  Loving your child doesn't mean you should have to be put in the A &E by them. That shouldn't be what unconditional love means. Pls take care of yourself.  

Good luck mate. I expect he will figure it out or if he doesn’t it will be his choice. I used to have to go around fishing my dad out of pubs when he went awol, sometimes with one of my kids in tow. Not fun. 

I don't accept that at that age you can be an alcoholic

Then you’re ignorant.  Many people have become entirely dependent on alcohol at that age.  Your brain doesn’t need to be fully developed to have a fatal addiction.

I've a friend who was on this path by the time he was 20.  He turns 50 this year and through some sheer luck, he is still with us and still acting as he did when he was 20.  Drugs, alcohol and starting fights in bars.  Recently got caught driving whilst 3 times over the limit.  He has crashed more cars than most of us will ever own and despite breaking his neck at one point, managed to survive and keep up the bad behaviour.

I'd hate to be in your position, I can only imagine how helpless you feel.  I can't give you any advice the pro's haven't already given you.

Mutters I think I might have asked this question before and I don’t think I saw an answer so apologies if I missed it, but have you considered staging an intervention?

They can be quite powerful.  Gathering almost everyone who loves him and cares for him together to say they know he’s an alcoholic and that if he doesn’t change he’s going to die, and that he needs to get help because he doesn’t seem to be able to help himself, can work.  It could alienate him initially but help in the medium term.

the idea of having a job would terrify him.  He's an archaeologist by qualification.  Previously when he needed money he'd do odd cash in hand jobs.  He was also not averse to the odd petty crime and selling coke to uni students.

Believe it or not, he managed to make a fortune trading crypto.

HUGS

You have all the advice and you know what you need to do. 

But finding the courage to actually do it is… one of the most difficult things you will ever do. And the doubt about whether it is really the right thing to do never ever leaves you. 

My brother and his partner have similar issues, and I have very serious concerns about the potential for it to all end very very badly. 

One of the hardest parts for me is that the only time he ever calls me/speaks to me is when he is utterly shitfaced and things have gone side ways with her. 

But I know if I answer the phone I get to play  therapist to a suicidal drunk who slurs his words so badly I can barely follow the conversation. For HOURS… while he continues to drink.  Half the time I don’t even know what he is talking about. 

But does me listening to  that save my nephews from something worse? 

I dread those calls… and I know better than to  answer a phone call from him after 6.30pm..

But I dread receiving another type of call entirely even worse. 

and then I always wonder if I could ever forgive myself if the first call came before the second type.. and I didn’t answer. 

 

I like the idea of an off the books cash in hand archaeologist.  

We need three mesopotamian double-flutes.  5k.  No questions

I'd have no doubt that this idea has crossed his mind.  He'll pretty much do anything to get enough money for drink.

Well at least we now have an explanation of why Mutters isn't as funny as he used to be.

I have no advice to offer; your circumstance is not like anything I have had to face and even if I had I am not sure that generic advice from an unqualified is helpful.  Just know that many of us on here welcome your input and if that includes venting about sad things it is still appreciated.  

Best wishes.

No dog. The house cannot take any more variables. 

I actually took a moment on the weekend to take the little pot of shaved ear hair from the deceased best beloved which we keep in an envelope with a lead, collar and paw print and to sniff the essence of Clover and say hello. Amidst all the hurley burley this was a blessing.

Off topic a little but I recall being so hungover on a ski slope that a kind lady asked if I was OK. I then literally fell down the slope as could barely ski. Went into the restaurant and ordered a hair of the dog. Felt better.  Does anyone else remember those clubs selling shots…

Muttley I am so very sorry. 

I have a question, which I hope won't seem stupid. As I read the list of harm and self harm it seemed to me to easily tot up to grounds for involuntary committal. Am i wrong;  or have you considered and rejected that; or not thought in that direction because you are thinking addiction rather than mental illness? 

My closest experience, which is not v close, was a 20 something yr old friend being committed by her family. Not alcoholism, bipolar disorder. It did everything they feared in harming their relationship with her ; and then slowly medication worked; and she's been alive and well for decades; and they all rebuilt the relationships, not identical but ok.

It won't solve addiction,  but if you are trying to break patterns and cycles it is one more idea.

No answer required.  

My brother was similar to this. I saw him in 2019. Blue hands. Always stank of booze, shaky all the time. And this was when he was putting in extra effort to restrain himself because we were visiting. He'd moved in withy parents but they were away. 

He'd disappear down the pub. Not answer his phone. Not come home for days. Never told my parents where he was. In complete denial. People get there slowly and then one day all of a sudden you realise they've been an addict for years but it takes something for you to accept. 

We all assumed he was going to die falling down the stairs or something. 

His lucky break was getting casual work from a builder who was doing something at my parents house. He got sent home more than a few times for turning up on site still pissed. But the builder kept letting him come back. Probably enjoyed the fact that he could pay as little as possible because my brother was basically unemployable. 

He was a complete mess. Dozens of cider bottles full of piss under the bed. Apparently he'd drink one in the morning to steady himself for the day.

Anyway, one day he just decided he didn't want to drink anymore. He begged my parents to fund him through some intense withdrawal course, and they reluctantly (because there had been a few false dawns) agreed.

He hasn't had a drink since. He's on the way to getting some professional qualifications (I'm addiction therapy no less) and has a side gig working with his hands, which I believe he finds therapeutic. 

He's not going to be one of life's great achievers but he's happy and stable and slowly repaying the debt of patience that he owes my parents by going over to fix their internet, restocking their fridge before they return from holiday etc etc. 

Some of these people do manage to turn themselves around and you can hold onto a sliver of hope.

My sympathy, Muttley. 

Probably not much use at this point but I gave up smoking (years ago) and drinking (15 months ago) by reading Allen Carr (no, not that one) EasyWay books.  However, in each case I actually wanted to give up.  I suspect nothing will change with your son until he wants it to. 

Mutters this is all obviously horrid to read, to experience it exponentially worse, also obviously. Best wishes to you and your son in the continued struggle. But never never never give up. I’d thought it was a Richard Burton quote but the internet corrects me it’s Winston Churchill. 

as someone without children it is, i imagine, a lot easier to think about this situation than to face it in reality … but, having spent some time reflecting on whether or not to post this, I do wonder whether it is time for you to cut the cord and let your son walk the path he (or his disease) has chosen. if it is going to kill him it is going to kill him and you might as well salvage what you can.

Gosh you always come across as so sympathetic and understanding in these posts, Mutters. I’m so sorry that life continues to take a dump on you. It isn’t fair. 

thanks Eug and thank you to (most) others too numerous to respond to directly. I have to get a train. It may take some time as I shall need to go from Waterloo to Portsmouth and back a few times asleep before getting off nearer home in one direction or another.

 

Eug, I am sympathetic and understanding. i have a lot of love for my fellow human. a lot.   I dont always express it right or get understood but my goal in life is to end it with them saying he did the right thing for people around him. I dont need money or honours or in this life writings about good deeds, I just need to give love and leave the world cared for, bettered, helped, guided.  

You could distract yourself by going up the spinnaker tower to take in the interesting skyline of portsmouth.

Unfortunately, the only interesting bit of the portsmouth skyline is the spinnaker tower

This was hard to read. I have nothing to add other than to say I sincerely hope he finds a path to recovery.

It’s not easy to give up on your own flesh and blood. But only a parent truly understands this. 

I have heard it takes several months for the brain chemistry to come back to normal after stopping intake. I have often wondered if addicts could be cured by taking them to a drug free environment for many months, maybe even a year, (think remote village in Africa or India) with no recourse to any sort of stimulants.

The link below won’t help you I’m afraid, but it may help someone else with teenage kids who is worried that this may come to pass in the future:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/iceland-knows-how-to-stop-teen-substance-abuse-but-the-rest-of-the-world-isn-t-listening-a7526316.html

 

 

I have often wondered if addicts could be cured by taking them to a drug free environment for many months, maybe even a year, (think remote village in Africa or India) with no recourse to any sort of stimulants.

This is called “doing a geographical” and no, it doesn’t work. 

Hey Mutters. I have nothing to add to any of the above. But I send you lots of love and hugs, and I hope someday he manages to recover. I remember seeing the Louis Theroux doco on alcoholism and it was beyond my experience. I hope you and your family find a way through this. Xx 

Oh Mutters, I really am deeply sorry to learn of your troubles and can only imagine your pain and suffering. I am the child of an alcoholic father, a different experience entirely, but it’s a soul tormenting journey. 

The only thing which occurs to me is whether something spiritual or somatic could be worth a try. No quick fixes of course.

I have somatic therapy with a wonderful therapist based between Bath and North London. She’s a clinical psychotherapist but specialises in bodywork and trauma release. It’s quite profound. 

There is also a lot of fascinating research into the use of psychedelics for the treatment of addictions. It is something I have first hand experience of. I found the link below just now online and thought it was a useful overview of the taking of ayahuasca in ceremony. 

I know I am a random stranger on the internet but I am also a mother and a younger parent than you and someone who lived around alcohol addiction and liver disease for many years. If you ever thought a conversation with me could in any way assist your son, I would be very happy to connect. 

I pray for peace for you all.

https://deepfix.substack.com/p/addiction-and-ayahuasca

No dog. The house cannot take any more variables. 

 

**** 

 

Well then, I sincerely hope and dearly wish that one day in the not too distant future,  you will feel like you have the space and time to have another dearly beloved four legged, furry friend. 

I know I couldn't live without mine and the joy and love they bring.  

Building on Scy's and sheepishly contributing to the digression here, will it help if the posters shared their pets' pics? 

 

I recall this exercise was done some years ago. 

Sorry to read this, speaking as someone who has struggled with addiction, I could only add:

  1. The point about change coming from within is a key one, until he wants to change you're fighting what amounts to a losing battle.
  2. For me, hitting rock-bottom was feeling like there was no more support, no more bailouts. I'd burned every bridge at that point. As long as an addict feels like they can still 'get away with it', then it's hard for them to break the pattern. That's a hard balance to strike, as you never want to abandon/give up on your own child, of course, but you have to convey you're at a complete loss with it too. That shock to the system was a big driver for me to sort myself out. 

  3. CBT was incredibly useful to me. My problem wasn't alcohol, per se, but the principles of recognising triggers and modifying your reactions to them still stands. 

     

     

    Good luck. Best to you both.

Thanks. Lots has been said here. Some very wise. 

We are in a lull day. Last night was sober. Today is a getting on and picking up the pieces day for him (long list of things not done or needing sorting - closing bank accounts opened when drunk to get loans and cash back etc, find belongings, wallet, cancel cards, apply for replacements rail card, ID etc). Always same.  lie low today, tomorrow punchy, raging drink abandonment night, day after is offensive, upsetting, repeat. 

fooking shit. 

Oh ffs ROF if I want to say F U C K I N G then I will. 

Good news he went to AA yesterday not the pub. 
He needs to have that plan for a rage day, or as I call it his ‘ fu ck you all’ days, when he really needs it. 

Yes I agree that the support needs to be withdrawn. All I would say is we all have limits to our discipline. How many of you can truly say you would be able to ignore a call at 3am from someone you love who you know to be ill and who has the humility to cry for help? The last two times I have found him hypothermic and distressed. How can one just ignore that - the child you spent a quarter of a century raising and loving.

if someone (anyone) kicked me in the head while I was on the ground I would pretend they were already dead

I appreciate this would be hard if your wife and daughter are not on board

and what if, in the life you prolong with your care, he murders someone else? will you pay expensive lawyers to argue his innocence (he couldn't help it, it was the disease, your honour)

It is far far easier said than done, and I am no addiction expert but seems to me logical, excusing the clumsy analogy, that as long as the safety net remains to catch him when he falls he will keep walking the tight rope until he falls so hard the net will not save him...

Bloody hell mutters.  This is one of those threads I read and just can't think of anything to say which might help and which hasn't already been said by posters or already tried by muttfamily. So the only thing I can say is good luck to all of you and KBO through what with this and other issues must feel like a never ending stream of shyte.

It has reminded me to give his late Lordship's ear hair cuttings a sniff. And to get around to getting the paw print tattoo.

God I feel for you Mutters.  What a situation.  I wouldn't be able to walk away from my son in that situation so its all very well saying walk away from him, let him hit rock bottom but it's not as easily done.  My friend had issues with alcohol.  It was bad.  If you'd asked me 3 years ago would she still be alive now I'd say no.  She is and she's doing very well.  I asked her what had changed and she said "well there's not much more can happen in my life" (she lost her brother, dad and mum within the space of about 8 years).  Not saying they worked (as she kept getting into relationships in rehab which is a no no) but she tried medication from dr to stop cravings, detox (to avoid DT's/death), rehab and local group sessions similar to AA.  I am hoping that your son "sees the light" soon as it must be living hell for you.  Sending love and best wishes.

Guy, you are of course correct. But I wont be making the mistake of accepting the premis that it is therefore my fault  It may prolong the journey.  but that is preferable to us simply dusting ourselves off and saying, ah good he's dead, there, that's that sorted. 

If my child had kicked me in the head and than rang me feeling sorry for himself at 3am I would be beyond fuming and tell him not to call and sort himself out. You seem to be trying to control every aspect of his care and rehabilitation. None of it seems healthy sorry. Accept it let that rope you are pulling on drop. Put your own welfare first. 

Muttley  - I am sorry.  That was difficult reading.    I can offer no advice other than to say, just keep venting.  There are multiple shoulders to keep leaning on here.  Just keep leaning.  The shoulders will always be there.

Yes I agree that the support needs to be withdrawn. All I would say is we all have limits to our discipline. How many of you can truly say you would be able to ignore a call at 3am from someone you love who you know to be ill and who has the humility to cry for help? The last two times I have found him hypothermic and distressed. How can one just ignore that - the child you spent a quarter of a century raising and loving.
 

Absolutely hear that, it's a very difficult thing to judge. 

I have nearest and dearest still in therapy over it all, and I did what I did c. 5/6 years ago now. You just have to find what works the best for your circumstances.

Here's my pact with myself.

I will not attend his funeral with a sense of guilt. i hope never to attend it. if I have to then it will be with a sense that nothing else could have been done and neither my wife, daughter nor I have any questions to answer as to what we did or didn't do, and that he has been taken from us by addiction and that's an illness. Discipline (his not mine) may have helped him but if it did not then so be it. I tried. We lost him.

If we do not lose him then I will continue, as I do now, to delight in his company and adore the reflected warmth of his goodness as a human being. It is him, not the addicted him. who speaks to me as my son. The addicted him is the stolen, remapped, nasty him. He does not want to be that person but cannot presently avoid being overtaken by that person. I will not dance to that person's tune save when I can do something to save him from being killed by that person.  Everything else is his battle. 

Yes I agree that the support needs to be withdrawn. All I would say is we all have limits to our discipline. How many of you can truly say you would be able to ignore a call at 3am from someone you love who you know to be ill and who has the humility to cry for help? The last two times I have found him hypothermic and distressed. How can one just ignore that - the child you spent a quarter of a century raising and loving.

Yeah, until we've been that person in that situation, we just can't be sure.

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