Brown would be truly radical in the current climate. Matt Forde’s podcast has his interview with Brown at the Edinburgh Fringe. The way he talks about coordinating an international response, the different levers he would pull re the energy crisis… inspiring.
Hmm. He did a photo shoot with him taking a knee. I have nothing against knee taking but it’s not something you do if you want to focus ruthlessly on big ticket policy
believe me Starmer wants to spend as little time as possible on "culture wars"
Starmer has declared he does not visit churches of Christian denominations that do not agree with LGBT+ rights. However, he's fine with visiting synagogues of Jewish Orthodox that have exactly the same view on LGBT+ rights. I guess because having the same standard for Christian and Jewish denominations would be anti-semitic.
The lesson Starmer took from the years of Corbyn was not that Labour needed to be a party of the whole of society rather than of particular social/ethnic/religious groups. Rather it was that Labour just needed to change the social/ethnic/religious groups with which it is aligned.
The Tories have drifted too far to the Right. I want to be able to vote Labour, but unless he comes up with a coherent package of policies to help working people and stabilise the economy I can't. Surely I'm not alone in this?
Great to hear that anna (if she were able to) wouldn’t vote for Labour on culture war grounds, which she says marks the entire PLP as lunatic fringe (you’ll actually find the lunatic fringe were kicked out after the 2019 GE).
meanwhile the rest of the country will vote on the serious economic issues.
Great to hear that anna (if she were able to) wouldn’t vote for Labour on culture war grounds
Lol. Tories could be methodically murdering an entire ethnic group and Tuesday would find a way to be ok with it if they promised to segregate transfolk toilets.
‘There are nutters on both sides. He needs to concentrate on working people and their concerns, not those of Right-wing feminists or "trans" activists.’
here here. He’s playing into the hands of the hard right and religious evangelicals on the one hand and the hard left on the other by giving the subject oxygen.
The overall problem is, starmer and streeting etx would fit perfectly into the libdems. Corbyn etc were properly what a socialist alternative should be.
Yes it is ffs. You're a maniac extremist now. Lean into it. You can't simultaneously benefit from Western liberal culture and also be a hatemongering culture warrior against transfolk. You're already excusing right wing nutbags because they hold the 'right views '. It's an easy trap for rich 'liberal' people to fall into n.b. those who never learned how hard it was to fight for liberalism. Enjoy.
Tories could be methodically murdering an entire ethnic group and Tuesday would find a way to be ok with it if they promised to segregate transfolk toilets.
My local Labour councillor tweeted the following earlier this year:
Rishi Sunak is a complete waste of space. He should go back to India with his billionaire wife.
Labour is much more likely to systematically persecute an ethnic group than the Tories are.
Ah, so you DO think it's more important to shout from the rooftops that anyone who doesn't share your (bizarre) belief system is a monstrous bigot than to find some common ground in the hope that the Labour Party can get elected and actually, you know, do something.
And so does the Labour Party, apparently.
does anna think the labour party is represented exclusively by like owen jones and ash sarkar or something?
(both of whom of course are hugely critical of the labour party for um… not doing that)
or is she just creating a nonsense strawman she can frothingly rail against as per usual?
Looks like they are likely to get elected based on the polls atm. Your “if Labour doesn’t immediately announce agreement with my position on trans issues they will lose” take was always a bit one-eyed, but now appears totally bizarre.
the labour politicians you mention believe that gender exists and trans people exist
like every centre-liberal political party in the world you loon, as well as the un, the who, the ama, the european… look i’ve done the list a million times, the point is it’s not a “radical” position
in the uk at the moment we have an energy crisis that is leading to “warm banks” where people can sit in buildings to not freeze, an nhs unable to service emergency care, a cost of living crisis leading to people unable to buy food as well as union strike action on the trains, in the postal service and in the courts, water companies literally pouring raw sewage into our rivers and seas on top of the existing critical underfunding into social care, education and public services that the tories have managed for the last 12 years
who gives a flying fvck what nadia whittome thinks about trans people?
you are a danger to women and children anna (as well as men and the elderly and everyone else who has to live in this country)
Of course I said the exact opposite of what you credit me with rr, as I explicitly acknowledged it was a problem…. You seem to be having another one of your meltdowns alas
Get Labour in and then work on trans issues. You cannot seriously let. the Tories in again after they’ve wrecked the country. And,yes, I’ve read all the posts and yes, women need to be listened to but the Tories are not your friends.
every centre liberal political party in the world anna
as well as the international health organisations (and every other medical and psychological body in the west) i posted a bunch of links from trudeau, sanna marin, jacinda arden, belgium, spain, etc etc on the other thread
“why doesn’t the labour party take on the policies of russia, hungary, the republican party, on this issue? i am furious with them” is such a kittens argument
I am fvcking furious with Labour for throwing away votes over fvcking trans issues for the benefit of a tiny and very self obsessed minority.
You’ve completely lost perspective on this whole issue. It’s just not the case that there are loads of people who would vote Labour if they took your view on trans rights. Most people aren’t obsessed by this like you are. Get a fooking grip.
All of whom have a vote, even if you/Chill/RR would rather we didn't.
um i don’t want you not to have a vote
i just said you’re a fvcking idiot if comments from nadia whittome about trans people is what you’d base your vote on given all the other problems in the uk
English rose, you do know public spending has just gone up and up don’t you? Ireland had propert austerity after the GFC, they actually cut public sector pay. People saying there was austerity in the uk have no clue what they are talking about
in the uk at the moment we have an energy crisis that is leading to “warm banks” where people can sit in buildings to not freeze, an nhs unable to service emergency care, a cost of living crisis leading to people unable to buy food as well as union strike action on the trains, in the postal service and in the courts, water companies literally pouring raw sewage into our rivers and seas on top of the existing critical underfunding into social care, education and public services that the tories have managed for the last 12 years
she said:
And yes, those other issues are important, which is why I am fvcking furious with
English rose, you do know public spending has just gone up and up don’t you? Ireland had propert austerity after the GFC, they actually cut public sector pay. People saying there was austerity in the uk have no clue what they are talking about
fvck me, what utter misleading nonsense. You can’t actually believe this?
You're acting as though you've analysed just exactly what was so unsuccessful about the remain campaign and gone, great, let's do all of that on steroids.
heh
if anyone was undecided on how far through the looking glass anna has gone on this specific issue
she’s now - anna! - comparing herself to the brexiteers as the justified, persecuted minority and the trans rights supporters to the remainers
without a hint of irony
jk rowling is now being treated like nigel farage and called a bigot - doesn’t that make you look stupid??
I wouldn’t even try and have a reasoned debate with you Tuesday because my 75 or so percentage ish agreement with your views on trans things is not enough for you. You have become more and more extreme so won’t look at any issue in the round. Extremism is very dangerous.
Absolutely not a Tory but I have seriously considered joining the Conservative Party over the last few years purely so that I can have a vote over who our next PM is. Because that’s how abject Labour have been.
The next election will be a big test of how strong “time for a change” is amongst the commentariat (already very strong) and the electorate (probably very strong but maybe not enough for an outright victory)
If you fail to exercise your democratic rights fully you effectively lose them. Plenty of you lot will get gobby as school governors. Lobby your local councillors on the issues you claim to care so much about.
We’ve all seen the March rightward of left wing or liberal roffers as they hit their 40s. Goose and co just had to vote Tory because of Brexit. Anna and co have shifted to ‘spoiling their ballot papers’ ahead of a confirmed move to voting Conservative next time around. They don’t have any choice you see.
47 is the age when most people make the switch isn’t it?
How is that deliberately offensive? It’s a recognised phenomenon, people get more reactionary as they get older and are more likely to vote Conservative. Plenty of examples on ROF.
47 is the average age (i think), some people get there sooner.
ah yes, the I voted Tory because someone was mean to me online, that’s another classic. Not seen it round these parts since, oh probably them old brexit times…
Whatever you need to tell yourself Anna, it’s pretty much what goose and co were saying 5 years ago.
and as for this:
fvck you, you insufferable smug pricks with zero interest in the opposing point of view, I don't really give a shit whether we're in the EU or not but I'm going to vote leave just to fvck you off, because my vote is as good as yours and there's nothing you can do about it.
I recall you did far more of the heavy lifting than everyone else on here put together
Tuesday, you keep telling me that the Labour Party desperately needs your votes. The polling evidence doesn’t support that though, does it? It’s a simple question.
OK, but it’s the best evidence we have isn’t it? On the best evidence we have, there is no pressing electoral need for Labour to start talking about gender critical ideas in an attempt to win over people like you. Is there.
Only Corbyn and McConnell offer a true socialist alternative, but it may take another defeat for Labour to come to its senses and put them back in charge
Their first act should be to nationalise the banks, reimpose exchange controls and adopt a principled approach to Occupied Palestine
I'm saying they should probably stop calling people dinosaurs and saying women have penises, and outline how they actually plan to tackle the rising cost of living.
I don’t think these things are at all related. But yeah sure, more tangible policy would be nice from Labour. On the other hand, they’re smashing it currently so maybe they feel that just watching the Tories struggle is working fine for them. Point is, there’s nothing to suggest them coming out on the GC side is something they really need to do atm
I expect that, as in the case with Brexit, there is lots of foreign skulduggery. Labour do need to step up but when I look at starmer, Reeves, Streeting , Gwynne, Foxcroft, Cooper etc I see people who are way more trustworthy than Braverman, Raab, Francois etc etc
Well if they think they can afford to rest on their laurels like that, we can all look forward to a wonderful new era where they swoop in and sort out all the country's problems, can't we?
If waiting for the Tories to implode is the best they've got then they're a bit shit, aren't they?
Seems to be working out for them. Not sure what you’re hoping for really. No of course they won’t “swoop in and sort out all the country’s problems”. They ought to be better than the current lot though, which is a low bar. That’s enough for me to vote for them, and also I suspect for many others.
Ooh and have you noticed how maternity healthcare isn’t a priority for the Tories? But hey you’re in France so dont have to worry. Most women are far more bothered about that.
Anna is incapable of taking a balanced view of this. Political parties are broad churches, no party will correspond exactly with your views but you look at it the round, you dont take a single issue and then let it dictate all your voting decisions. Its just bizarre. Particularly when that single issue, impacts most people day to day far less than a myriad of other critical matters such as the economy health and education.
I am not saying you should take a more balanced view on womens rights. I do not criticise your view on womens rights at all. I am saying something completely different.
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They really are a shower of sh1t.
Bring back Tony Blair. Fvck me I'd even vote for Brown I reckon.
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Starmer is an absolute waste of space, way too cautious and no charisma. Still better than the Tory shitshow though
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Brown would be truly radical in the current climate. Matt Forde’s podcast has his interview with Brown at the Edinburgh Fringe. The way he talks about coordinating an international response, the different levers he would pull re the energy crisis… inspiring.
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who woudl you prefer Guy? wes streeting?
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He's spending too much time on these ridiculous culture wars. Get back to basics. Nationalisation of water, rail and energy. Etc.
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There are nutters on both sides. He needs to concentrate on working people and their concerns, not those of Right-wing feminists or "trans" activists.
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dux believe me Starmer wants to spend as little time as possible on "culture wars"
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Hmm. He did a photo shoot with him taking a knee. I have nothing against knee taking but it’s not something you do if you want to focus ruthlessly on big ticket policy
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to hold a 200 seat majority after the 2024 election
to piss a big golden shower all over tory faces and win places that have been tory as long as they’ve been places
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Starmer has declared he does not visit churches of Christian denominations that do not agree with LGBT+ rights. However, he's fine with visiting synagogues of Jewish Orthodox that have exactly the same view on LGBT+ rights. I guess because having the same standard for Christian and Jewish denominations would be anti-semitic.
The lesson Starmer took from the years of Corbyn was not that Labour needed to be a party of the whole of society rather than of particular social/ethnic/religious groups. Rather it was that Labour just needed to change the social/ethnic/religious groups with which it is aligned.
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It's a shame he isn't as enthusiastic about reclaiming the working class vote as he is the Jewish vote.
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The Tories have drifted too far to the Right. I want to be able to vote Labour, but unless he comes up with a coherent package of policies to help working people and stabilise the economy I can't. Surely I'm not alone in this?
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Serious question. Does he visit Mosques?
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Great to hear that anna (if she were able to) wouldn’t vote for Labour on culture war grounds, which she says marks the entire PLP as lunatic fringe (you’ll actually find the lunatic fringe were kicked out after the 2019 GE).
meanwhile the rest of the country will vote on the serious economic issues.
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Lol. Tories could be methodically murdering an entire ethnic group and Tuesday would find a way to be ok with it if they promised to segregate transfolk toilets.
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‘There are nutters on both sides. He needs to concentrate on working people and their concerns, not those of Right-wing feminists or "trans" activists.’
here here. He’s playing into the hands of the hard right and religious evangelicals on the one hand and the hard left on the other by giving the subject oxygen.
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The overall problem is, starmer and streeting etx would fit perfectly into the libdems. Corbyn etc were properly what a socialist alternative should be.
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It's true. Deal
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Yes it is ffs. You're a maniac extremist now. Lean into it. You can't simultaneously benefit from Western liberal culture and also be a hatemongering culture warrior against transfolk. You're already excusing right wing nutbags because they hold the 'right views '. It's an easy trap for rich 'liberal' people to fall into n.b. those who never learned how hard it was to fight for liberalism. Enjoy.
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What's wrong? Unable to engage when the primary topic isn't penis people?
Introspection required?
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Yay another trans thread. Haven’t had one of those for a while.
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My local Labour councillor tweeted the following earlier this year:
Labour is much more likely to systematically persecute an ethnic group than the Tories are.
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😂
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Windrush
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Bunch of fooking middle class babies moaning that equality requires them to compromise.
Cope more.
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Also, for the benefit of the really fvcking thick, defending transfolk's right to safety and dignity is not "waging war against women."
2bfannplaybtbat game you're plaaaayiinnn
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Oh 2 can play that game yourrrr playyyinnnn
Weird spurge.
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Wind rush was hardly a Tory problem exclusively was it rr
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If there was one roffer who would think windrush was ok it would be you.
Because you're a khunt.
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Tuesday would be ok with it if all the victims were gender dysphoric.
Because FÜCK THEM right?
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You've become terminally obsessed with trans stuff to the point of becoming a lunatic.
Transclergs
Own it
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No I think it's the correct way of calling out arseholes which is way more important.
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does anna think the labour party is represented exclusively by like owen jones and ash sarkar or something?
(both of whom of course are hugely critical of the labour party for um… not doing that)
or is she just creating a nonsense strawman she can frothingly rail against as per usual?
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Rob, who was that councillor? I remember vaguely hearing about that. Was it a guy in north Lambeth?
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excuse me chill i think you’ll find nadia whoever said something about women with penises that i disagree with
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@diceman North Lambeth? How very dare you! Wandsworth thank you very much.
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who cares?
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This was shadow cabinet minister and Labour Party moderate Lucy Powell last week. Political maturity is not the term I would use.
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Poor Racist Royalty has been on the sauce again tonight.
And he’s a VERY ANGRY HECTOR.
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Looks like they are likely to get elected based on the polls atm. Your “if Labour doesn’t immediately announce agreement with my position on trans issues they will lose” take was always a bit one-eyed, but now appears totally bizarre.
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Well, they’re currently 10% up so you can do the maths.
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Oh, OK then. Not sure how relevant that is to what we were saying but 🤷♂️
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then you’re a fvcking idiot
the labour politicians you mention believe that gender exists and trans people exist
like every centre-liberal political party in the world you loon, as well as the un, the who, the ama, the european… look i’ve done the list a million times, the point is it’s not a “radical” position
in the uk at the moment we have an energy crisis that is leading to “warm banks” where people can sit in buildings to not freeze, an nhs unable to service emergency care, a cost of living crisis leading to people unable to buy food as well as union strike action on the trains, in the postal service and in the courts, water companies literally pouring raw sewage into our rivers and seas on top of the existing critical underfunding into social care, education and public services that the tories have managed for the last 12 years
who gives a flying fvck what nadia whittome thinks about trans people?
you are a danger to women and children anna (as well as men and the elderly and everyone else who has to live in this country)
you
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Of course I said the exact opposite of what you credit me with rr, as I explicitly acknowledged it was a problem…. You seem to be having another one of your meltdowns alas
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Get Labour in and then work on trans issues. You cannot seriously let. the Tories in again after they’ve wrecked the country. And,yes, I’ve read all the posts and yes, women need to be listened to but the Tories are not your friends.
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every centre liberal political party in the world anna
as well as the international health organisations (and every other medical and psychological body in the west) i posted a bunch of links from trudeau, sanna marin, jacinda arden, belgium, spain, etc etc on the other thread
“why doesn’t the labour party take on the policies of russia, hungary, the republican party, on this issue? i am furious with them” is such a kittens argument
you know why
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You’ve completely lost perspective on this whole issue. It’s just not the case that there are loads of people who would vote Labour if they took your view on trans rights. Most people aren’t obsessed by this like you are. Get a fooking grip.
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You sound ridiculous.
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Lol. WTF are you talking about?
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What is it about trans that makes otherwise (presumably) sane people become absolute obsessive nutcases?
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um i don’t want you not to have a vote
i just said you’re a fvcking idiot if comments from nadia whittome about trans people is what you’d base your vote on given all the other problems in the uk
please vote - the more people who vote the better
even idiots get to vote, it’s called democracy
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Me: expresses disagreement with you on Labour’s electoral chances and political strategy
You: oh I know you want to ban women from voting well tough luck!!
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Anna, you are stark raving bonkers.
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???????
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People are going to die of hunger and cold. I’m prioritising that. I’ll come back to trans things later. So will all the women I know.
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Well staying with the status quo won’t help. 12 years of austerity and the utmost cruelty. Brazen lying. Total incompetence. It’s evil and wicked.
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You must live in an echo chamber englishrose
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Weren’t you just saying that Labour needs the votes of people like you?
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What is it exactly that you think the Tories are doing to solve any of the problems with which we are currently faced ?
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English rose, you do know public spending has just gone up and up don’t you? Ireland had propert austerity after the GFC, they actually cut public sector pay. People saying there was austerity in the uk have no clue what they are talking about
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anna’s position is just bananas
i said:
she said:
wait for it…
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do you work for tufton street anna?
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Unpaid which is so sad.
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But the Tories is the most powerful political message imaginable. Unless you are a slave to culture war distractions.
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Rof autocorrect making my point.
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He’s back after another couple of bottles
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fvck me, what utter misleading nonsense. You can’t actually believe this?
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Well as I corrected your factual error on another thread lord heh, forgive me if I give your views zero credibility
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Imagine being on the same side as risky. I'd cringe and retreat.
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heh
if anyone was undecided on how far through the looking glass anna has gone on this specific issue
she’s now - anna! - comparing herself to the brexiteers as the justified, persecuted minority and the trans rights supporters to the remainers
without a hint of irony
jk rowling is now being treated like nigel farage and called a bigot - doesn’t that make you look stupid??
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I've seen some paper thin excuses for becoming hard right wing in middle age, but this takes the biscuit.
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I wouldn’t even try and have a reasoned debate with you Tuesday because my 75 or so percentage ish agreement with your views on trans things is not enough for you. You have become more and more extreme so won’t look at any issue in the round. Extremism is very dangerous.
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I don’t know what to do at the next election.
last time Corbyn hated Jews
starmer doesn’t seem to know what a woman is
I need a party that does know what a woman is : cue, it’s a biological one and that doesn’t hate Jews
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Absolutely not a Tory but I have seriously considered joining the Conservative Party over the last few years purely so that I can have a vote over who our next PM is. Because that’s how abject Labour have been.
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so vote tory ob
nobodys stopping you
thats the point
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I don’t want to vote Tory. I want labour to do better.
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The next election will be a big test of how strong “time for a change” is amongst the commentariat (already very strong) and the electorate (probably very strong but maybe not enough for an outright victory)
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If you fail to exercise your democratic rights fully you effectively lose them. Plenty of you lot will get gobby as school governors. Lobby your local councillors on the issues you claim to care so much about.
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We’ve all seen the March rightward of left wing or liberal roffers as they hit their 40s. Goose and co just had to vote Tory because of Brexit. Anna and co have shifted to ‘spoiling their ballot papers’ ahead of a confirmed move to voting Conservative next time around. They don’t have any choice you see.
47 is the age when most people make the switch isn’t it?
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How is that deliberately offensive? It’s a recognised phenomenon, people get more reactionary as they get older and are more likely to vote Conservative. Plenty of examples on ROF.
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47 is the average age (i think), some people get there sooner.
ah yes, the I voted Tory because someone was mean to me online, that’s another classic. Not seen it round these parts since, oh probably them old brexit times…
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Whatever you need to tell yourself Anna, it’s pretty much what goose and co were saying 5 years ago.
and as for this:
fvck you, you insufferable smug pricks with zero interest in the opposing point of view, I don't really give a shit whether we're in the EU or not but I'm going to vote leave just to fvck you off, because my vote is as good as yours and there's nothing you can do about it.
I recall you did far more of the heavy lifting than everyone else on here put together
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you’ve just swapped one issue for another
ps i don’t care who you vote for, I’m not sure why you keep trying to make this my responsibility. Just accept your own choices.
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heh
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The remain side told people exactly what would happen and lost. The leave side lied though their teeth and won.
I can see what you've learned from that tbf.
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Tuesday, you keep telling me that the Labour Party desperately needs your votes. The polling evidence doesn’t support that though, does it? It’s a simple question.
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This is a really bizarre way of dodging the question I just asked you. Again it’s a simple question which you ought to be able to answer honestly.
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OK, but it’s the best evidence we have isn’t it? On the best evidence we have, there is no pressing electoral need for Labour to start talking about gender critical ideas in an attempt to win over people like you. Is there.
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Only Corbyn and McConnell offer a true socialist alternative, but it may take another defeat for Labour to come to its senses and put them back in charge
Their first act should be to nationalise the banks, reimpose exchange controls and adopt a principled approach to Occupied Palestine
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I don’t think these things are at all related. But yeah sure, more tangible policy would be nice from Labour. On the other hand, they’re smashing it currently so maybe they feel that just watching the Tories struggle is working fine for them. Point is, there’s nothing to suggest them coming out on the GC side is something they really need to do atm
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I expect that, as in the case with Brexit, there is lots of foreign skulduggery. Labour do need to step up but when I look at starmer, Reeves, Streeting , Gwynne, Foxcroft, Cooper etc I see people who are way more trustworthy than Braverman, Raab, Francois etc etc
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Sorry?
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Seems to be working out for them. Not sure what you’re hoping for really. No of course they won’t “swoop in and sort out all the country’s problems”. They ought to be better than the current lot though, which is a low bar. That’s enough for me to vote for them, and also I suspect for many others.
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You care about your issues anna.
The rest of the country will vote on the serious economic issues, and not be drawn into a bogus culture war.
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Sadly I’m in a constituency where it is Lib Dem or Tory. The Lib Dems have a policy on trans I’m not happy with but I am engaging with them about it.
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Ooh and have you noticed how maternity healthcare isn’t a priority for the Tories? But hey you’re in France so dont have to worry. Most women are far more bothered about that.
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That you compare Brexit to trans rights only goes to show how utterly delusional you are.
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Anna is incapable of taking a balanced view of this. Political parties are broad churches, no party will correspond exactly with your views but you look at it the round, you dont take a single issue and then let it dictate all your voting decisions. Its just bizarre. Particularly when that single issue, impacts most people day to day far less than a myriad of other critical matters such as the economy health and education.
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I am not saying you should take a more balanced view on womens rights. I do not criticise your view on womens rights at all. I am saying something completely different.
Join the discussion