I put this on another thread, so adding it here, before Chill has his "won't anyone think of the poor men who are completely banned from public life???" turn
Some good news for females and fair play
Males to be forbidden from competing in female categories in elite cycling competitions
Of course, they'll remain able to compete in accordance with their sex, so don't believe anyone like Chill who'll no doubt claim they are banned from cycling completely. That was never the case, and will never be the case.
Just announced all over the news. The bit I am posting is from BBC.
British Cycling is to ban transgender women from the female category of its competitions following a nine-month review and consultation.
Under a new participation policy that the governing body said was "predicated on fairness", such athletes will compete in an 'open category' with men.
The female category will be "for those whose sex was assigned female at birth".
The changes will prevent rider Emily Bridges - the country's highest-profile transgender cyclist - potentially being part of the British women's team.
Last year she was stopped from competing in her first elite women's race by the UCI - cycling's world federation - despite meeting the rules at the time.
British Cycling's policy had allowed transgender women to take part in elite female events if they met testosterone-based regulations.
But with the governing body at the heart of the debate over balancing inclusion with fairness, its regulations were suspended amid mounting controversy about Bridges and a review was launched.
"Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage," said British Cycling.
"Our aim in creating our policies has always been to advance and promote equality, diversity and inclusion, while at the same time prioritising fairness of competition.
"We recognise the impact the suspension of our policy has had on trans and non-binary people, and we are sorry for the uncertainty and upset that many have felt during this period."
Transgender women will be able to participate in non-competitive recreational and community cycling without restriction.
The new policies will be implemented by the end of the year.
this is a sensible solution. There are trade offs and costs to any decisions - there's nothing to stop trans men-to-women competing in the men category, right?
"Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage," said British Cycling.
common sense starting to break out. Have events for people female at birth and an open category. Nobody feels excluded or mislabelled but it is fair - job done.
Emily Bridges, a transgender woman who sought to compete in a women's event, says the new policy from British Cycling is a "violent act" and accused the body "furthering a genocide against us"
No such thing as female at birth, as we're sexed in-utero. What do you imagine happens at prenatal scans? Sex is observed during prenatal scans. How do you imagine that occurs? Conducting a poll on whether people in the room prefer blue or pink?
We're sexed in-utero. We'll remain sexed, if they dig up our skeletons a thousand years after we've died.
well yes somebody who would never have stood a chance as a man competing in cycling changes sex and then competes in women competitions - I admit that category will be annoyed -but thats tough really.
This seems to be the position most sporting bodies are settling on, and seems a fair compromise for sports where biological male puberty confers an actual competitive advantage. As early intervention and treatment of trans children continues to improve, the incidence of trans females being forced to go through biological male puberty will drop and the problem will start to solve itself.
This isn't a cycling issue, Law. It's a sporting issue, as males have been taking up female spaces in all sports.
Lest we forget Chill's finest hour on rof - when pushed to respond to a male having been permitted to violently attack females under the banner of sport "well it's obvs not great clive"
BBC apologises for interviewing Fallon Fox about women’s sport policy on Radio 4 Today programme. “We were unaware of previous comments made by Fallon Fox in 2020. Had we been aware of those comments in advance we would have conducted the interview differently”
All over the internet - comments made about women by Fallon Fox
"For the record, I knocked two out. One woman’s skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss! Don’t be mad."
--
Chill ignores and keeps posting anti-women content
Clive asks: Chill surely you agree that comment by Fallon Fox is horrendous?
Chill responds: "well it’s obvs not great clive but she’s an mma fighter and fighters talk problematic trash since ali
shes not talking about beating up women on the street"
Sanity, I hope all sports come to this realisation soon, rename the mens category to open and we can all move on.
Bridges is welcome to compete in the open category so their offensive take that this is genocide should be given the consideration it deserves.
Bridge's issue is one of not being good enough to compete with men, but someone needs to explain to the poor dear that you can't always win just because you want to.
Lest we forget Chill's finest hour on rof - when pushed to respond to a male having been permitted to violently attack females under the banner of sport "well it's obvs not great clive"
erm - as your quote says, i was responding to whether her comment about “smacking up tefs” was horrendous or not
and i said fighters talking smack at each other is part of the show, it’s what they’re paid for - it’s not great clive but you have to take it in context
i don’t think i took a position on whether she should be competing or not (no idea, up to the mma committee)
liam smith got called up for homophobic comments against chris eubank jr a while back - i don’t agree with them but that’s part of what they do
Women were violently attacked by a male, Chill. You didn't acknowledge that at all til pushed by Clive. Upon which, your response to that disgraceful, concerning, anti-female series of events resulting in harm to women was:
Lol, you do understand that they agreed to fight her don't you? Why is it you bigots always resort to lies? Is it because you can't string normal arguments together, or that you know your position is so weak?
You haven't once shown any concern for the females, Chill, in any context.
You've led a years-long smear campaign against Joanne Rowling, because your Twitter overlords told you she's a bad person.
In fact, you've shown nothing but contempt for females broadly, whether they've been violently attacked by males, had their sporting wins and prizes stolen by males, lost opportunities because of males taking up spots in female spaces, don't want males in female spaces, or advocating for the safety, privacy and dignity of females.
Yes Rumpole, it was just bantz! Nothing wrong with a bit of bantz!!!! I mean, not ideal of course. But not actually wrong
i didn’t say there was nothing wrong with the comments, i just didn’t think they merited such outrage
boxers and fighters talk about knocking out their opponents teeth all the time, and frequently throw around racial or homophobic epithets when they do (less so publicly these days, but tyson fury is still a dick)
part of what they’re paid for is to create drama for the fights
No such thing as female at birth, as we're sexed in-utero. What do you imagine happens at prenatal scans? Sex is observed during prenatal scans. How do you imagine that occurs? Conducting a poll on whether people in the room prefer blue or pink?
We're sexed in-utero. We'll remain sexed, if they dig up our skeletons a thousand years after we've died.
Another trans-bigot moron trotting out the tired, stupid old lie that anyone thinks people are actually changing their biological sex
"No such thing as female at birth, as we're sexed in-utero. What do you imagine happens at prenatal scans? Sex is observed during prenatal scans. How do you imagine that occurs? Conducting a poll on whether people in the room prefer blue or pink?"
The point is that not everyone will have records of scans but everybody will have a birth certificate recording sex at birth so that is the obvious point at which to determine sex for the purpose of competing in competitive sport. I am not sure what your point is here?
You haven't once shown any concern for the females, Chill, in any context.
You've led a years-long smear campaign against Joanne Rowling, because your Twitter overlords told you she's a bad person.
In fact, you've shown nothing but contempt for females broadly, whether they've been violently attacked by males, had their sporting wins and prizes stolen by males, lost opportunities because of males taking up spots in female spaces, don't want males in female spaces, or advocating for the safety, privacy and dignity of females.
As events in the US have definitively shown, encouraging and normalising intolerance and bigotry towards vulnerable minorities and marginalised groups is massively harming to women, and in particular women of colour and lesbian women. It's not exactly rocket science is it.
Male is a sex, as is female. Nothing to do with gender, which some people believe in, and others don't.
It's entirely unremarkable you are attracted to males, as a male. That you insist on referring to such males as females is your internalised homophobia.
No idea what you are talking bout Rumpole, you seem to be having a different discussion to everybody else which is about how to set up fair sporting competition.
It isn't. You haven't understood this topic, Guy. The topic is, despite having already had sexed competitions, males were permitted to take female space in sports, and people generally didn't give a damn about females, who were also subject to violent attacks by males as a result of that not giving a damn about females in sports.
The topic is how do we go back to sexed categories, now with the realisation that males will try to take up all spaces in sporting competition, including the female spaces, regardless that they're sexed for the safety, privacy and dignity of females.
Ah Rumpole, lovely to see you. Couple of questions I'm still keen to get answers to:
- were you wrong to accuse another poster of "just reacting to clickbait articles" when your first contribution to this thread - https://www.rollonfriday.com/discussion/dodgy-doctors-continue-drive-tr… - was a paste job from one of the least trusted and most sensationalist US media outlets ?
- does paragraph 4.21 come before paragraph 4.5 in the interim Cass report ?
"It's entirely unremarkable you are attracted to males, as a male. That you insist on referring to such males as females is your internalised homophobia"
What about if I put a wig on them ? Asking for a friend.
Rumpole I have absolutely no interest in the ideology behind the pro anti trans debate, I am interested in fairness in sport. The British cycling solution seems to resolve the unfairness without them having to be involved in the whole idealogical debate about what doers and does not constitute a man/woman for other purposes, which strikes me as entirely sensible.
"Emily Bridges, a transgender woman who sought to compete in a women's event, says the new policy from British Cycling is a "violent act" and accused the body "furthering a genocide against us""
This is not just a part of the problem, it's almost the whole of the problem.
It's one thing to bemoan the fact that you cannot now compete as a woman, it's quite another thing to make such ridiculous and dangerous allegations. It's quite clearly not a "violent act" and it also quite clearly does not "further" "genocide", and claiming it is further inflames an already incendiary situation without achieving anything positive.
Speaking personally - and I have no idea exactly what category this cyclist falls into - I am yet to be convinced that society should be treating some as a woman if he has a beard, penis, and so forth just because that person merely announces that they have decided henceforth to be female.
As males started taking females spaces and prizes in sports, what did you do to help females?
Ahhh, here we go again. Tell us Rumtroll what you did so we can know next time what is needed? You often ask this of others and are very reticent to say what exactly your heroics have been.
I genuinely believe that Chill has done more ostentatious things for women’s rights (going on marches etc) despite some of his more interesting opinions than you have but I am happy to be proven wrong.
Let us all know how we should bring down the wrong-thinking members of society by following your example.
Also not sure Chill would have been so sanguine if the opponent had won and said “I love smashing tr*nnies teeth out. You’re a bloke mate, not a woman”.
Would have been equally reprehensible but might have had more of a reaction from a certain poster.
"As males started taking females spaces and prizes in sports, what did you do to help females?"
Nothing. There are many injustices in the world and everybody, literally everybody, does nothing about the vast majority of them, you pick your causes. This isnt mine.
Also not sure Chill would have been so sanguine if the opponent had won and said “I love smashing tr*nnies teeth out. You’re a bloke mate, not a woman”.
god i dunno jim - but let’s be honest if you think it would be out of the question for fallon fox’s manager to set up a fight between her and an outspoken terf, and she’d be all “yeah i love beating up terfs” and her opponent would be “he’s a fvcking bloke, i’m going to kick the sh!t out of him” you’re out of your mind
they’re fighters it’s what they do
people want to see them tear each other apart
i don’t think fallon’s comment was great, i was saying she wasn’t advocating violence against women - she’s an mma fighter
You see this is where we have the issue Chill. Twice now you’ve said the comment is “not great”. To the rest of us it is horrific. I would find any similar comment the other way round equally appalling - it goes far beyond trash talk and displays misogyny (or transphobia if reversed).
I would hope that others on here who were outraged by Fox would feel the same, but to you it’s just part of the sport. I disagree really strongly and I think we’ve seen where it’s been homophobic or such there has been similar outcry. But it seems to be that you think misogyny is fair game in this context.
On the first leg of the promotional tour in Los Angeles, McGregor taunted, “Dance for me, boy,” as Mayweather shadowboxed on the Staples Center stage. McGregor’s use of “boy” — a slur that conjures up imagery of slavery, Jim Crow and the residual racism still prevailing in the United States, and a proxy for the N-word — spurred an immediate firestorm on social and mainstream media.
Leonard Ellerbe, the CEO of Mayweather Promotions and the fighter’s closest friend and aide, rebuffed claims that McGregor’s a bigot, responding, “He’s pushing the envelope a bit. He knows what he’s doing. … He’s a cold pimp.”
The final leg of the promotional tour, in London’s Wembley Stadium, witnessed more of the same. In front of a crowd of 10,000 fans, McGregor called Mayweather a “b—-” throughout his speech, patted him on the head and called him a “good kid” as his opponent sat down, silent and smirking.
However, Mayweather was hardly an innocent bystander. When it was his turn to speak, he incessantly called his opponent a “b—-” and a “ho,” slurs that are especially menacing coming from a man who did a two-month jail bid for beating up former girlfriend Josie Davis in front of two of their children. To make matters worse, Mayweather added homophobia to the promotional pot in London, calling McGregor a “f—-t” and telling him “you’re gay” in closing, turning the news conference into a cesspool and circus of bigotry.
i don’t like the language, i would never use the language
i don’t agree with what fox said (or posted or whatever)
i’m saying if you’re going to get outraged at the horrendousness of the comments you need to understand racist, homophobic and misogynistic comments are commonplace among fighters
nobody would make a post about mayweather calling someone a f—-t and talk about how outraged they were without someone else saying “yeah it’s awful - but they’re fighters”
Ah good to be referenced in old posts at least in passing. Re Fallon Fox there were two things. I read that quote as beating up two women and fracturing one of their skulls- these were opponent’s.
The comment re terfs seemed much broader and to me hinted at joy in beating them- nearly all of whom would not be fighters.
erm it’s not a well explained post, it’s a misreading of what she said, but i didn’t really care to get into a fight with clive about it or be accused of defending fallon’s comments
clive - the comment re: terfs was:
See, I love smacking up TEFS in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss!
which is clearly not good but is also clearly talking about her opponents (hence “in the cage”)
Chill I get where you're comimg from but dont think that makes any sense. The opponent’s weren't gender critical feminists they were just mma female fighters.
Fallon is not being literal but I think that's a fairly overt threat to women who are not fighters.
Chill seriously claiming it is merely "not ideal" to threaten to beat up women on the basis that it is part of a wider culture of homophobia and racism.
Back to the drawing board with your TRA activist friends chill - you need to work out a better party line on this point. Let us know once you will have conferred.
Chill seriously claiming it is merely "not ideal" to threaten to beat up women on the basis that it is part of a wider culture of homophobia and racism.
she’s not threatening to “beat up women”
she’s saying she loves beating up the women she fights in the mma, particularly if they’re terfs
should she be using the term terf? probably not, in this context it comes across as a slur
but like mayweather calling macgregor a “f—-t” it’s - imo - part of the game
sorry - i thought the outrage here was that she used a slur against her opponents (“terf” or “tef”) and it was part of attacking them for their beliefs in a misogynistic way
of course she’s not advocating beating up random women - that was my original point to clive (who still seems to not get it)
mma fighters fight in a cage
she said she loves beating up “terfs” in the cage
this was the whole thing i had earlier with actus about whether someone would literally say “i love beating up Black people” or “gay people” instead of just calling them “boy” or “f——t”
and as i say i don’t agree with her saying it, but it’s not in my opinion substantially different from the language thrown around normally by fighters
tbf yes i do see if someone not an mma fighter had said “god i love beating up gender critical women, isn’t it brill!” and i’d said “well that’s not great but 🤷” that would make me a misogynist and a horrible person
but that’s explicitly not what either i or fallon fox said
"Some people object to me participating in this sport because they say I have an innate advantage in terms of strength due to my biological sex, and I love smacking those people up in a cage when they are forced to fight against me because the current rules are enforced under a banner of LGBT activism which means that anyone who criticises them seriously risks losing the ability to make a living due to likely cancellation".
I mean 9 months of consultation ffs. The evidence is overwhelming, unambiguous, peer-reviewed to death and not disputed by anyone outside of a sociology faculty.
Males were already excluded. They didn't give a damn about the rules. They took spaces in the female categories regardless. Too many people didn't give a damn about what males were subjecting females to.
There are 3 important aspects to now consider:
How to ensure such males don't again do that
How to ensure the general public cares about females
How to get these rules enforced more broadly, beyond the competitive level, in order that we stand a chance of young females participating in sports at grass roots level
Statement from The Women’s Rights Network on British Cycling's revised policy on Transgender and Non-Binary policy released today.
"The Womens Rights Network welcomes British Cycling’s revised Transgender and Non-Binary Policy, released today. It is a positive move towards creating an inclusive place for women and girls in competitive cycle sport and a partial acknowledgement that fairness and safety in female sports is important.
However we are disappointed that British Cycling has chosen to allow self-identification in all other women’s and girls’ activities, chiefly, the Sport England-funded UK Breeze programme. This programme was created to bring women into the sport, women who would not normally join the existing cycling club structures. In our view it is dishonest of British Cycling to market this project to women through their website as “women only” when this is not the case.
Our challenge is therefore to British Cycling and to its funders & sponsors: what are you doing to ensure that women & girls who cannot participate in cycling with men, or who don't want to, have equal opportunities?
The Womens Rights Network calls on British Cycling to be transparent with their female membership and start to build a relationship with us again. This rethink of policy on competitive cycling is the first step towards cycling that truly is inclusive of women".
Though if you are the leader of the smear campaign, is it still correct to speak of others as your "overlords"? You're surely a very important figure in the movement.
I mean 9 months of consultation ffs. The evidence is overwhelming, unambiguous, peer-reviewed to death and not disputed by anyone outside of a sociology faculty.
it’s really not kaulbach, come on
even the olympic committee struggles with this
fwiw sports is one of the areas that i do have sympathy with gender critical activists - i tried to research it in detail and simply gave up
it’s undeniable that taking estrogen (or testosterone) creates physical changes in the body that can equate to those of the opposite sex, but there are so many sports that require so many different physical skills - combat sports, individual competitive sports, team sports etc (some subcategorised by weight etc) - and, particularly at elite levels, all the best athletes are exception compared to average people of their sex - it’s an absolute minefield and i don’t envy the scientists and officials that need to navigate it
i’m not certain tbh given the science that “was assigned female / male at birth” or even “has gone through male / female puberty” is the most equitable criteria but i can’t blame certain sporting organisations for diverting to that, at least in this climate
(but even then you get into brutal decisions re: intersex people, which is a whole other minefield)
"i tried to research it in detail and simply gave up "
Don't be coy. What did you do to research this "in detail"? Usually when you make bold claims like this, it means you asked on Twitter or TikTok.
"it’s undeniable that taking estrogen (or testosterone) creates physical changes in the body that can equate to those of the opposite sex"
Give us 5 such examples.
"(but even then you get into brutal decisions re: intersex people, which is a whole other minefield)"
Nope. Irrelevant to this discussion, like anyone with a birth defect. By all means start a separate discussion on this topic, though. People with a DSD have asked people like you over and over again to stop weaponising them to try to win on the internet. As have black people, disabled people, gay people...
Nothing’s ever perfect Chill. Some under 16s will have developed more than others and have advantages others don’t have. However, a line is drawn: if you are under 16 on a certain date you can compete. You can’t say, well I feel like I’m still 15 even though I’m 23 as I’m very immature so you should let me in.
Same works here. The category is “born female” and it should never have included anyone who was born male but identifies otherwise.
yeah i completely get that jim - i don’t think anyone has a “right” to participate in competitive sports so it’s not something i’d go to bat on (and as i think i’ve said before amateur sports are much more problematic)
as long as the categories are fair that’s the goal (but of course all the categories are arbitrary, it’s sport)
Thank you UCI_cycling for at last giving your female cyclists fair sport as they deserve… sport has been treating, with huge disrespect, their biological females athletes. Any governing body not offering natal female & open as categories are committing sex discrimination
1
3
I put this on another thread, so adding it here, before Chill has his "won't anyone think of the poor men who are completely banned from public life???" turn
Some good news for females and fair play
Males to be forbidden from competing in female categories in elite cycling competitions
Of course, they'll remain able to compete in accordance with their sex, so don't believe anyone like Chill who'll no doubt claim they are banned from cycling completely. That was never the case, and will never be the case.
Just announced all over the news. The bit I am posting is from BBC.
British Cycling is to ban transgender women from the female category of its competitions following a nine-month review and consultation.
Under a new participation policy that the governing body said was "predicated on fairness", such athletes will compete in an 'open category' with men.
The female category will be "for those whose sex was assigned female at birth".
The changes will prevent rider Emily Bridges - the country's highest-profile transgender cyclist - potentially being part of the British women's team.
Last year she was stopped from competing in her first elite women's race by the UCI - cycling's world federation - despite meeting the rules at the time.
British Cycling's policy had allowed transgender women to take part in elite female events if they met testosterone-based regulations.
But with the governing body at the heart of the debate over balancing inclusion with fairness, its regulations were suspended amid mounting controversy about Bridges and a review was launched.
"Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage," said British Cycling.
"Our aim in creating our policies has always been to advance and promote equality, diversity and inclusion, while at the same time prioritising fairness of competition.
"We recognise the impact the suspension of our policy has had on trans and non-binary people, and we are sorry for the uncertainty and upset that many have felt during this period."
Transgender women will be able to participate in non-competitive recreational and community cycling without restriction.
The new policies will be implemented by the end of the year.
0
1
Fair play, should really be a standard.
Except for badminton, the sporting equivalent of gender dysphoria.
1
1
this is a sensible solution. There are trade offs and costs to any decisions - there's nothing to stop trans men-to-women competing in the men category, right?
0
1
if this is true, fine with me
1
1
common sense starting to break out. Have events for people female at birth and an open category. Nobody feels excluded or mislabelled but it is fair - job done.
0
1
Oh people do feel excluded alright.
2
1
And individual lockable changing rooms
0
1
Emily Bridges, a transgender woman who sought to compete in a women's event, says the new policy from British Cycling is a "violent act" and accused the body "furthering a genocide against us"
0
1
No such thing as female at birth, as we're sexed in-utero. What do you imagine happens at prenatal scans? Sex is observed during prenatal scans. How do you imagine that occurs? Conducting a poll on whether people in the room prefer blue or pink?
We're sexed in-utero. We'll remain sexed, if they dig up our skeletons a thousand years after we've died.
1
2
well yes somebody who would never have stood a chance as a man competing in cycling changes sex and then competes in women competitions - I admit that category will be annoyed -but thats tough really.
1
1
Not possible to change sex. We are the sex we are forever.
The risk to females isn't as trivial as annoyance. It's fatal injury. It's theft of sporting prizes. It's loss of opportunities.
0
1
Really Guy? You think genocide is just "tough"?
0
1
This seems to be the position most sporting bodies are settling on, and seems a fair compromise for sports where biological male puberty confers an actual competitive advantage. As early intervention and treatment of trans children continues to improve, the incidence of trans females being forced to go through biological male puberty will drop and the problem will start to solve itself.
0
1
Oh come off it Rumpole. Fatal injury? On a bike? A grazed knee, more like.
3
1
"The risk to females isn't as trivial as annoyance."
"It's theft of sporting prizes"
I agree with the separation but did LOL at this
1
1
This isn't a cycling issue, Law. It's a sporting issue, as males have been taking up female spaces in all sports.
Lest we forget Chill's finest hour on rof - when pushed to respond to a male having been permitted to violently attack females under the banner of sport "well it's obvs not great clive"
BBC apologises for interviewing Fallon Fox about women’s sport policy on Radio 4 Today programme. “We were unaware of previous comments made by Fallon Fox in 2020. Had we been aware of those comments in advance we would have conducted the interview differently”
All over the internet - comments made about women by Fallon Fox
https://mobile.twitter.com/Shatterface/status/1546876036109008898
"For the record, I knocked two out. One woman’s skull was fractured, the other not. And just so you know, I enjoyed it. See, I love smacking up TEFS in the cage who talk transphobic nonsense. It’s bliss! Don’t be mad."
--
Chill ignores and keeps posting anti-women content
Clive asks: Chill surely you agree that comment by Fallon Fox is horrendous?
Chill responds: "well it’s obvs not great clive but she’s an mma fighter and fighters talk problematic trash since ali
shes not talking about beating up women on the street"
0
2
Sanity, I hope all sports come to this realisation soon, rename the mens category to open and we can all move on.
Bridges is welcome to compete in the open category so their offensive take that this is genocide should be given the consideration it deserves.
Bridge's issue is one of not being good enough to compete with men, but someone needs to explain to the poor dear that you can't always win just because you want to.
0
1
What?
2
1
erm - as your quote says, i was responding to whether her comment about “smacking up tefs” was horrendous or not
and i said fighters talking smack at each other is part of the show, it’s what they’re paid for - it’s not great clive but you have to take it in context
i don’t think i took a position on whether she should be competing or not (no idea, up to the mma committee)
liam smith got called up for homophobic comments against chris eubank jr a while back - i don’t agree with them but that’s part of what they do
1
1
i mean rumpole posted my entire response, did they just not read it?
0
2
Who you responding to there, chill?
0
2
Women were violently attacked by a male, Chill. You didn't acknowledge that at all til pushed by Clive. Upon which, your response to that disgraceful, concerning, anti-female series of events resulting in harm to women was:
well it’s obvs not great clive
0
1
Yes Rumpole, it was just bantz! Nothing wrong with a bit of bantz!!!! I mean, not ideal of course. But not actually wrong.
Though I do wonder whether there are contexts in which the bantz defence might not be that popular.
1
1
i was responding to her comment
clive asked if i agreed the comment was horrendous
the… the quotes are literally there in your own post
1
1
c i told all u frit ppl 2 relax and not get wound up by rightwhinge yank-exported culture wars
common sense and normality would inevitably prevail
the gr7 thing is this demonstr7s there is literally no good reason left 2 vote tozza. not a single 1
0
1
Lol, you do understand that they agreed to fight her don't you? Why is it you bigots always resort to lies? Is it because you can't string normal arguments together, or that you know your position is so weak?
0
0
You haven't once shown any concern for the females, Chill, in any context.
You've led a years-long smear campaign against Joanne Rowling, because your Twitter overlords told you she's a bad person.
In fact, you've shown nothing but contempt for females broadly, whether they've been violently attacked by males, had their sporting wins and prizes stolen by males, lost opportunities because of males taking up spots in female spaces, don't want males in female spaces, or advocating for the safety, privacy and dignity of females.
2
1
i didn’t say there was nothing wrong with the comments, i just didn’t think they merited such outrage
boxers and fighters talk about knocking out their opponents teeth all the time, and frequently throw around racial or homophobic epithets when they do (less so publicly these days, but tyson fury is still a dick)
part of what they’re paid for is to create drama for the fights
0
1
It's starting to look that way Oracle, which is a relief.
Too many people not being brave enough to call out the bleeding obvious left space for this culture war crap.
0
0
Another trans-bigot moron trotting out the tired, stupid old lie that anyone thinks people are actually changing their biological sex
1
1
"No such thing as female at birth, as we're sexed in-utero. What do you imagine happens at prenatal scans? Sex is observed during prenatal scans. How do you imagine that occurs? Conducting a poll on whether people in the room prefer blue or pink?"
The point is that not everyone will have records of scans but everybody will have a birth certificate recording sex at birth so that is the obvious point at which to determine sex for the purpose of competing in competitive sport. I am not sure what your point is here?
1
1
Sex isn't determined. It is observed. Language matters.
0
1
As events in the US have definitively shown, encouraging and normalising intolerance and bigotry towards vulnerable minorities and marginalised groups is massively harming to women, and in particular women of colour and lesbian women. It's not exactly rocket science is it.
0
1
Males aren't a vulnerable minority. Some males in some specific circumstances are vulnerable, but males broadly are not.
0
1
Unlike the point you are trying to make, which is completely irrelevant
0
1
Lol, is that supposed to be an argument? Try again, put a bit more effort into it
0
1
Oh and just a fyi, do drop the casual mis-gendering. Its just cruel lazy pointless bullying, and makes you come across like a massive w**ker
0
2
"Sex isn't determined. It is observed. Language matters".
This is not a test to determine sex it is test to determine entry to sporting competition to ensure fairness.
0
1
Male is a sex, as is female. Nothing to do with gender, which some people believe in, and others don't.
It's entirely unremarkable you are attracted to males, as a male. That you insist on referring to such males as females is your internalised homophobia.
0
1
No idea what you are talking bout Rumpole, you seem to be having a different discussion to everybody else which is about how to set up fair sporting competition.
0
1
It isn't. You haven't understood this topic, Guy. The topic is, despite having already had sexed competitions, males were permitted to take female space in sports, and people generally didn't give a damn about females, who were also subject to violent attacks by males as a result of that not giving a damn about females in sports.
The topic is how do we go back to sexed categories, now with the realisation that males will try to take up all spaces in sporting competition, including the female spaces, regardless that they're sexed for the safety, privacy and dignity of females.
4
2
Ah Rumpole, lovely to see you. Couple of questions I'm still keen to get answers to:
- were you wrong to accuse another poster of "just reacting to clickbait articles" when your first contribution to this thread - https://www.rollonfriday.com/discussion/dodgy-doctors-continue-drive-tr… - was a paste job from one of the least trusted and most sensationalist US media outlets ?
- does paragraph 4.21 come before paragraph 4.5 in the interim Cass report ?
0
1
What about if I put a wig on them ? Asking for a friend.
0
2
Rumpole I have absolutely no interest in the ideology behind the pro anti trans debate, I am interested in fairness in sport. The British cycling solution seems to resolve the unfairness without them having to be involved in the whole idealogical debate about what doers and does not constitute a man/woman for other purposes, which strikes me as entirely sensible.
3
1
This is not just a part of the problem, it's almost the whole of the problem.
It's one thing to bemoan the fact that you cannot now compete as a woman, it's quite another thing to make such ridiculous and dangerous allegations. It's quite clearly not a "violent act" and it also quite clearly does not "further" "genocide", and claiming it is further inflames an already incendiary situation without achieving anything positive.
0
1
"I am interested in fairness in sport."
As males started taking females spaces and prizes in sports, what did you do to help females?
6
0
Shouting genocide for not being allowed to cheat at bike riding. Bloody hell. It really says it all.
2
1
Speaking personally - and I have no idea exactly what category this cyclist falls into - I am yet to be convinced that society should be treating some as a woman if he has a beard, penis, and so forth just because that person merely announces that they have decided henceforth to be female.
0
2
*treating someone
Sorry :(
0
1
If what is true?
0
1
“I am interested in fairness in sport."
As males started taking females spaces and prizes in sports, what did you do to help females?
Ahhh, here we go again. Tell us Rumtroll what you did so we can know next time what is needed? You often ask this of others and are very reticent to say what exactly your heroics have been.
I genuinely believe that Chill has done more ostentatious things for women’s rights (going on marches etc) despite some of his more interesting opinions than you have but I am happy to be proven wrong.
Let us all know how we should bring down the wrong-thinking members of society by following your example.
What have you done?
0
1
I'm not sure there are many white boxers who'd get away with saying "I love punching black people", for context
0
1
Also not sure Chill would have been so sanguine if the opponent had won and said “I love smashing tr*nnies teeth out. You’re a bloke mate, not a woman”.
Would have been equally reprehensible but might have had more of a reaction from a certain poster.
0
1
"As males started taking females spaces and prizes in sports, what did you do to help females?"
Nothing. There are many injustices in the world and everybody, literally everybody, does nothing about the vast majority of them, you pick your causes. This isnt mine.
0
2
lol you think that doesn’t happen guy?
cw: transphobia
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1597393-ufc-matt-mitrione-says-transgender-fighter-fallon-fox-is-a-disgusting-freak.amp.html
they’re fighters what do you expect?
0
1
(sorry jim, not guy, got mixed up when you replied m8)
4
1
You can see the severe mental illness suffered by the likes of Mr Bridges when he calls it 'genocidal'.
0
1
probably not though i daresay it’s happened in the us at some point in history
2
1
Not quite the same Chill. “I like beating up TERFs” (having just done so) would equate to “I like beating up tr*nnies” (having just done so).
If it had been the latter rather than the former I suggest your reaction might have gone beyond “It’s obvs not great Clive”.
0
1
god i dunno jim - but let’s be honest if you think it would be out of the question for fallon fox’s manager to set up a fight between her and an outspoken terf, and she’d be all “yeah i love beating up terfs” and her opponent would be “he’s a fvcking bloke, i’m going to kick the sh!t out of him” you’re out of your mind
they’re fighters it’s what they do
people want to see them tear each other apart
i don’t think fallon’s comment was great, i was saying she wasn’t advocating violence against women - she’s an mma fighter
2
1
It would not be acceptable for a white fighter to promote a fight, or comment after the fight, saying god I love beating up black people.
No fight would be set up in that way you daft cvnt
1
1
You see this is where we have the issue Chill. Twice now you’ve said the comment is “not great”. To the rest of us it is horrific. I would find any similar comment the other way round equally appalling - it goes far beyond trash talk and displays misogyny (or transphobia if reversed).
I would hope that others on here who were outraged by Fox would feel the same, but to you it’s just part of the sport. I disagree really strongly and I think we’ve seen where it’s been homophobic or such there has been similar outcry. But it seems to be that you think misogyny is fair game in this context.
1
1
What people might say in private is not the same as what happened in this instance
0
1
https://andscape.com/features/the-racism-of-the-mayweather-mcgregor-tour-has-a-long-history-in-boxing/amp/
2
1
So nothing from a white boxer saying they enjoyed punching their opponent because they were black then?
also nothing after the fight, revelling in the injuries sustained by the opponent, again because they were black?
Do you have any actual comparators,
0
1
again - they’re fighters
i don’t like the language, i would never use the language
i don’t agree with what fox said (or posted or whatever)
i’m saying if you’re going to get outraged at the horrendousness of the comments you need to understand racist, homophobic and misogynistic comments are commonplace among fighters
nobody would make a post about mayweather calling someone a f—-t and talk about how outraged they were without someone else saying “yeah it’s awful - but they’re fighters”
0
1
do i have someone making the exact same comments but with “tefs” replaced with “Black people”? no actus
you have won the argument
2
1
Doesn't need to be the same words. Do you have any fighter making similar remarks about braking bones after their fight because of their beliefs?
Did the guy fighting Eubank say after the fight "well I hate gays and want to hurt them" or something similar or did he apologise?
1
1
Also your point about mayweather and what he called McGregor is disproved by the other example you gave earlier.
That's exactly what Eubank did and he was supported in the press for it
0
2
no not to hand
i wouldn’t be surprised if it’s happened though - they’re encouraged to play up to the bigotry (look at the comment from the promoter)
you seem to think i’m excusing fallon’s comments - i’m not, i think she went too far
i’m just not outraged by them like i’m not outraged by mayweather’s homophobia or macgregor’s racism
that doesn’t mean i agree with them ffs, or that i’m homophobic or racist myself
but look if you disagree, you disagree - smack talk from fighters isn’t somewhere i bother to put my energy
0
2
they make the comments to get in the press actus
if they say something outrageous enough it might get some extra coverage on bbc sports
0
0
Ah good to be referenced in old posts at least in passing. Re Fallon Fox there were two things. I read that quote as beating up two women and fracturing one of their skulls- these were opponent’s.
The comment re terfs seemed much broader and to me hinted at joy in beating them- nearly all of whom would not be fighters.
0
1
I think that's a really well explain post, Clive. Sadly, Chill doesn't give a damn about females.
0
1
erm it’s not a well explained post, it’s a misreading of what she said, but i didn’t really care to get into a fight with clive about it or be accused of defending fallon’s comments
clive - the comment re: terfs was:
which is clearly not good but is also clearly talking about her opponents (hence “in the cage”)
0
0
Chill I get where you're comimg from but dont think that makes any sense. The opponent’s weren't gender critical feminists they were just mma female fighters.
Fallon is not being literal but I think that's a fairly overt threat to women who are not fighters.
1
1
This thread is through the fooking looking class.
Chill seriously claiming it is merely "not ideal" to threaten to beat up women on the basis that it is part of a wider culture of homophobia and racism.
How about "totally wrong and inexcusable"?
0
1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFQLkDHqf84
The inclusion delusion
Kudos to Fair Play for Women for this informative video
2
1
If pressed, he will admit that it's not just not ideal, but also not great.
2
1
Back to the drawing board with your TRA activist friends chill - you need to work out a better party line on this point. Let us know once you will have conferred.
0
1
she’s not threatening to “beat up women”
she’s saying she loves beating up the women she fights in the mma, particularly if they’re terfs
should she be using the term terf? probably not, in this context it comes across as a slur
but like mayweather calling macgregor a “f—-t” it’s - imo - part of the game
sorry - i thought the outrage here was that she used a slur against her opponents (“terf” or “tef”) and it was part of attacking them for their beliefs in a misogynistic way
of course she’s not advocating beating up random women - that was my original point to clive (who still seems to not get it)
mma fighters fight in a cage
she said she loves beating up “terfs” in the cage
this was the whole thing i had earlier with actus about whether someone would literally say “i love beating up Black people” or “gay people” instead of just calling them “boy” or “f——t”
and as i say i don’t agree with her saying it, but it’s not in my opinion substantially different from the language thrown around normally by fighters
i do understand actus / jim disagree
0
1
tbf yes i do see if someone not an mma fighter had said “god i love beating up gender critical women, isn’t it brill!” and i’d said “well that’s not great but 🤷” that would make me a misogynist and a horrible person
but that’s explicitly not what either i or fallon fox said
0
0
I do get what you're saying Chill- it's just I disagree with it.
0
2
no i get you clive
tbh in a way i’m glad rumpole brought it all up again so i could clarify, might be the nicest thing rumpole’s ever done for me
0
1
"Some people object to me participating in this sport because they say I have an innate advantage in terms of strength due to my biological sex, and I love smacking those people up in a cage when they are forced to fight against me because the current rules are enforced under a banner of LGBT activism which means that anyone who criticises them seriously risks losing the ability to make a living due to likely cancellation".
Lovely stuff! Stunning and brave!
0
1
Obviously the correct decision to exclude biological men from women’s sports. Surprised it took so long.
0
1
I mean 9 months of consultation ffs. The evidence is overwhelming, unambiguous, peer-reviewed to death and not disputed by anyone outside of a sociology faculty.
0
0
sounds perfectly sensible, and fundamentally in keeping with the intended distinction between men’s and women’s sport
0
1
Males were already excluded. They didn't give a damn about the rules. They took spaces in the female categories regardless. Too many people didn't give a damn about what males were subjecting females to.
There are 3 important aspects to now consider:
Statement from The Women’s Rights Network on British Cycling's revised policy on Transgender and Non-Binary policy released today.
"The Womens Rights Network welcomes British Cycling’s revised Transgender and Non-Binary Policy, released today. It is a positive move towards creating an inclusive place for women and girls in competitive cycle sport and a partial acknowledgement that fairness and safety in female sports is important.
However we are disappointed that British Cycling has chosen to allow self-identification in all other women’s and girls’ activities, chiefly, the Sport England-funded UK Breeze programme. This programme was created to bring women into the sport, women who would not normally join the existing cycling club structures. In our view it is dishonest of British Cycling to market this project to women through their website as “women only” when this is not the case.
Our challenge is therefore to British Cycling and to its funders & sponsors: what are you doing to ensure that women & girls who cannot participate in cycling with men, or who don't want to, have equal opportunities?
The Womens Rights Network calls on British Cycling to be transparent with their female membership and start to build a relationship with us again. This rethink of policy on competitive cycling is the first step towards cycling that truly is inclusive of women".
2
1
Heh! Who knew chill was in charge of the smear campaign against "Joanne" Rowling
1
0
Though if you are the leader of the smear campaign, is it still correct to speak of others as your "overlords"? You're surely a very important figure in the movement.
0
1
smear campaign heh
0
1
it’s really not kaulbach, come on
even the olympic committee struggles with this
fwiw sports is one of the areas that i do have sympathy with gender critical activists - i tried to research it in detail and simply gave up
it’s undeniable that taking estrogen (or testosterone) creates physical changes in the body that can equate to those of the opposite sex, but there are so many sports that require so many different physical skills - combat sports, individual competitive sports, team sports etc (some subcategorised by weight etc) - and, particularly at elite levels, all the best athletes are exception compared to average people of their sex - it’s an absolute minefield and i don’t envy the scientists and officials that need to navigate it
i’m not certain tbh given the science that “was assigned female / male at birth” or even “has gone through male / female puberty” is the most equitable criteria but i can’t blame certain sporting organisations for diverting to that, at least in this climate
(but even then you get into brutal decisions re: intersex people, which is a whole other minefield)
3
1
Chill - you really think you have clarified anything on this thread, other than that you are a thundering hypocrite?
As for Rumpole - its capacity for repeating the same thing over and over again is epic. At least it is consistent, if nothing else.
0
2
"i tried to research it in detail and simply gave up "
Don't be coy. What did you do to research this "in detail"? Usually when you make bold claims like this, it means you asked on Twitter or TikTok.
"it’s undeniable that taking estrogen (or testosterone) creates physical changes in the body that can equate to those of the opposite sex"
Give us 5 such examples.
"(but even then you get into brutal decisions re: intersex people, which is a whole other minefield)"
Nope. Irrelevant to this discussion, like anyone with a birth defect. By all means start a separate discussion on this topic, though. People with a DSD have asked people like you over and over again to stop weaponising them to try to win on the internet. As have black people, disabled people, gay people...
0
2
well i got to clarify the original comment at least cru
i know some people still disagree with me (and i imagine you still believe i’m a hypocrite!) but whatever
0
1
Nothing’s ever perfect Chill. Some under 16s will have developed more than others and have advantages others don’t have. However, a line is drawn: if you are under 16 on a certain date you can compete. You can’t say, well I feel like I’m still 15 even though I’m 23 as I’m very immature so you should let me in.
Same works here. The category is “born female” and it should never have included anyone who was born male but identifies otherwise.
1
1
yeah i completely get that jim - i don’t think anyone has a “right” to participate in competitive sports so it’s not something i’d go to bat on (and as i think i’ve said before amateur sports are much more problematic)
as long as the categories are fair that’s the goal (but of course all the categories are arbitrary, it’s sport)
0
1
Important news Sadly really clumsy, confusing wording, when we're in desperate need of accuracy and clarity
"Female" is mis-used here:
"From now on female transgender athletes who have transitioned after (male) puberty will be prohibited from participating in women's events."
https://twitter.com/seaningle/status/1679825920884891649
Big news from cycling's governing body, the UCI, which has changed its transgender policy to make the female category a "protected class".
https://twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1679859254478397441
Sharron Davies:
Thank you UCI_cycling for at last giving your female cyclists fair sport as they deserve… sport has been treating, with huge disrespect, their biological females athletes. Any governing body not offering natal female & open as categories are committing sex discrimination
0
0
Looked at RoF this evening and thought 'oh god not another trans thread.'
Then I realised it was one if mine. Which I assume the Rumpole persona has resurrected in order to tun me. Very nice of you.
0
1
As is well known, a trans thread is a sure way to tun!
Join the discussion