Yes

I have just returned to an office, see other thread. Total disaster. Have left Partner in state of shock. I have been free for too long. Back wfh tomorrow for me. 

for many people yes, but the irony of all this is that presenterism is going to become more important to career progression in many organisations, not less

those willing to come in will differentiate themselves

shouldn’t be like that? so think ROF’s numerous members of the Royal Society of Introverts. but it will, I think. Not in the best organisations? Hopefully not. But in most organisations.

I have no idea why people are insisting mostly wanting to WFH. Why? If I were a boss, I would say get the fook i for 4 days a week at least.

What is wrong with tthe office? Going to work gives you structure and purpose.. 

I get less done because I’m constantly interrupted and trying to concentrate through other people talking.  Took me three over three hours to review two documents this afternoon and could have done it in under two at home and then done an hour of something else with the saved time.  I also start work earlier at home as I can spend the commuting time getting extra sleep. I’m measure on hours worked and hours paid up so it’s obvious how much I’m doing regardless of where I do it.

There is no going back to the office for many. It is a sad fact but it’s soon going to be almost three years of working from home and there’s no way things can go back after that length of time. There were opportunities to return to office life, but Omicron put a hard stop to it. In the meantime, the LinkedIn woke mob has been militant about working from home forever, the bargaining power shifted radically in favour of “what employee wants employee gets” with the arrival of Gen Z in the workforce dictating local culture and norms while huge swathes left the workforce entirely.  It really has been a radical upheaval of the workplace, but I think any hope of office life returning or asking people to do so is long dead. 

I wouldn't want to spend more than 1 day a week in the office.

I see Sir Alan Sugar has been railing against WFH on Twitter lately.  Very much against it.  Appazz only lazy fukkers ask for it.

I insist on WFH most of the time because I'm far more productive without people just wanting a social chat (I'm completely accessible for off-the-cuff work queries - more so than before because I'm always on tap now), my role is global so most of the time I am just on Zoom calls anyway and they get more time out of me because I work what would have been my commute.  

There's nothing "woke" about it, unless you count the fact that WFH increases inclusivity for marginalised cohorts of the workforce.  But I get that those who benefitted most from preseentism are on a militant campaign to force the genie back into the bottle.

I suppose you want to be at home for the cat snuggles. 

Presumably it will last until the employment market turns and it isn’t employee’s choice anymore 

Patty goes into work for the slimmest of human  interactions. Sorry life's so tough.

WFH works. For 90% of people who take the job seriously. The chances can and will be weeded out.

I had flexible working from 2009 and usually did 2/3 days a week in the office around meetings.

this meant I could pick up all the deliveries / building shit without impacting Nev who was ft office.

in 2017 my role went global so they didn’t want me in the office as more effective to have me attached to a screen from home 6am to midnight every day. 
 

it sort of worked as could manoeuvre myself around nob and household chores. Nev was never home til 9 so it was all on me.

cue pandemic and all of a sudden there’s 2 of us at home and he got to see his kids during the week and as there were 2 kids I only had to put one to bed and rush downstairs for a call

I don’t see how I would ever be able to be ft from an office as there’s just too much juggle with the kids and the house to even contemplate not being there / how we’d manage kids pick up and drop off - currently there are a mile apart so not feasible 

Flip side it’s lonely af if u like work human interaction and I felt like I either did housework or was chained to my desk with no respite from either but supposedly having it all

I suppose you want to be at home for the cat snuggles. 

No. My cat can't get into my office.  But nice little spreadsheety sneer there.

“I like wfh because I get to play tennis” - this is exactly what is wrong. It lurched too far to employee wants and desires. You’d have been sacked three years ago if you said that. 

What's your perfect balance OB?

If you work at a firm that would sack someone for saying they like being able to spend time with their family, I can understand why you might have the attitude you do, "Patricia".

It’s not the attitude of the firm Orwell, it’s about having structure and purpose. What is life being chained to a computer at home all day?

When I finish my career break ( :) ) then I think the perfect balance would be 1-2 days a week in the office. Both kids will be at school by then so should be more workable.

my friend has got the perfect gig - management consultant at her long term firm term time only … 

I’d love to do 4 days or term time and then would happily graft. I definitely won’t do global for a us based boss again it was a bloody nightmare - only saving Grace was slow mornings after hk went to sleep and before she woke up 

all my friends who have changed roles recently do lack connectivity to the company they work for and are much more work to rule where as we were all live by the Brand before 

What's life if you get your social needs met from spending time with people who are literally paid to be there? 

The interesting thing about these alleged militant mobs is that you don't actually hear people who can WFH effectively demand that everyone else should do it too.  There's only one militant mob trying to chain someone to a desk.  

Push for it? Doesn't sound unreasonable. I don't see why you shouldn't get that. Some may disagree but I think if weve proved our worth and work ethic over the last few years then work needs to fit around out commitments to a reasonable degree. I know that sometimes I'm far more productive in a shorter space of time when I'm wfh and have had a cheeky lie in.

Mind you the last job I got offered the basic didn’t even cover the childcare so I’m still jury’s out what I’ll actually do

Sales is a misnomer really as all my jobs have largely been Homebased as you’re largely out in the field, but the field for me went from driving all round universities to peddle law books m-f to going to shiny offices in the city to zoomed morning noon and night chasing the sun around 

I have no idea why people are insisting mostly wanting to WFH. Why? If I were a boss, I would say get the fook i for 4 days a week at least.

That's one of the many reasons why you have not been given any management responsibility. 

"If I were a boss" RED FLAG AWOOGA

Absolutely loathe the office. Smelly unpleasant binvironment full of the kinds of people who need others to be compelled to sit next to them so they can have some company through the day.

fook the office.

(in all srsness if you like the office that's cool i don't really think you need state mandated pals -necessarily - but I'm teams4lyfe)

Presumably it will last until the employment market turns and it isn’t employee’s choice anymore 
 

This. And that will be soon for many organisations.
 

‘Going to work gives you structure and purpose.’ 

This may be true for people who have zero self discipline and are unable to productively self manage. 

Wot scylla said. Job vs career. So many people with jobs think they have careers. The next few years will likely disabuse them of this illusion.

There is so little value in the office for most knowledge workers.

So most people on rof then, Scylla?

Blue Iguana- is that the same Alan Sugar who was a large central London commercial property portfolio?

It is indeed a mystery why he is so vocal on the subject of people returning to the office. 

One of the best things about wfh is more cat time.

too right! I do not have a cat at present but v much enjoy the cats of the street, either from the window or booped on a walk

If there was any realistic prospect of the average law firm drone becoming partner or getting decent payrises, then i could see the appeal of presenteeism. 

I certainly didn’t exclude myself from that group of people Risky. 
 

But I have found that once you have adapted, and set your own structure and routine, WFH has many, many  benefits over the office. 
 

This was probably what it was like when they introduced computers to the office. 

I thought even the most Right-wing Boomers were accepting WFH nowadays? 

Our dept all goes in one day a week and then WsFH the rest of the time.  The day is basically a write off social each time, with people chatting and catching up - getting their dull anecdotes out of their system for the week.  TBH I quite like it. 

Makes no sense to operate an office for a single day a week though. 

I like going into the office but I can understand if you were in one of those being open plan places it might be less good. My first point of negotiation would be concerning having my own office. WFH has to be bad for one's mental health and should be reserved for the sick/infirm and carers and they should be paid more!     

Not just open plan, but "agile working". Ugh. Here's some agile working: I'm sitting on the beach. 

Why's it bad for my mental health?  I see almost as many people at home as I do in the office at the moment and not having to worry about the fact that my dad is lying on the floor with my mum unable to get him up again undoubtedly benefits my mental health.  Also being able to pop out into the field with Saildog also helps and her mental health suffers when I'm in London so I can be in the office.

We did a survey and appetite for being in the office increased drmatically with seniority, which doesn't help the argument that its the juniors wanting to get back in to learn by "osmosis". I never learned anything by osmosis. Anyway when you went  into the office pre- 2020 it was never fun or buzzing with people working or pretending to work  at their desks and very few fun conversations or enjoyable social events etc. I only go into the office if I have something social outside the office like meeting a friend or client for a lunch or beers. When I was a junior the only reason I went in was because I had to and because of the craic after work outside the office. 

How can you get any work done on the beach. I can barely manage a Jilly Cooper novel. 

I'm no Joe 90. I need helpers and support staff all around me handing me bits of paper to sign. I can put my own phone calls through if necessary.      

Work has changed forever and I don't like it. I really prefer to work from the office. It allows me to do more than just my job. Discuss work and life with colleagues. Hear what keeps other people busy. Help out where useful. Come up with new and valuable ideas in random conversations.

If being in the office with your colleagues is not fun, the solution is not to go home and avoid your colleagues. The solution is to find a better job with better colleagues. 

Calvin I do all of that with a thing called the telephone.  I actually have better conversations with colleagues as you are generally chatting one to one rather than in a room with other people chipping in and where you feel you should be quick because you're disturbing people.

I had a long distance relationship once. She bought me a mobile phone so we could chat every day. That was the death knell of course. I suppose people have to do this over Zoom now.   

Current WFH still benefits from pre-WFH connection. Zoom/Teams/phone calls with people you knew well before Covid is not the same as with people that became colleagues while working from home.

And work and life is not just about efficiency. It's also about meeting people, sharing experiences, going to places. Most of my life might be more efficiently run from home than at location, but it would not be much fun. I can see a play on screen with the added benefit of being able to pause, rewind, etc. I could argue that it provides for a better view, but I'd rather visit the theatre. Work may not be entertainment, but it's a big part of life and I prefer to really experience and enjoy that part of life too. 

To the OP, it's not the norm but I'd say about 10% of candidates do ask for it now. Though it could be that these candidates' CVs are just in circulation for longer amongst agencies. Most are happy with 2-3 days a week in the office as a maximum.

it's funny how long it's taking businesses to realise that keeping an office for a handful of people is a total waste of cash

why don't partners want that moolah in their own pockets? (aside from the ones who own the buildings obviously)

Its a simple battle between 50+ presenteeists and extroverts of any age vs everyone else

I love how the HR tedes try to justify it too. Oh it’s better for collaboration and creativity!

yeah because a team of commercial real estate drones are so innovative!

I still gladly go into the office but don't need it everyday same way it's nice to watch a play in the flesh from time to time but generally I'll watch TV as it's more convenient.

If being in the office with your colleagues is not fun, the solution is not to go home and avoid your colleagues. The solution is to find a better job with better colleagues.  

No. The solution is not to say "Everyone must be like CD and get their energy from other people." The solution is to recognise that extroversion is not the norm, and may not even be the dominant type, and to recognise that workplaces have been designed to favour only part of the workforce for a long time and the genie isn't going back into the bottle.

We all need to compromise.

Work may not be entertainment, but it's a big part of life and I prefer to really experience and enjoy that part of life too.  

Which is great for you, but a large contingent of their colleagues get their satisfaction in life from not being around you. It's not personal - there's just more than one personality type.

What Orwell said. 

And if a WFHr admitted doing what CD does from the office (spending their time chatting about personal things to colleagues and  randomly interfering on other projects and on which they’re not involved (i.e. anything other than they’re actual job) the WFO mob would be up in arms.

CD I’ve not met half my colleagues including heaps of juniors. We speak daily (multiple times) via video and chat. No issues. Just need to find good ways to work and manage. There are ways of training juniors without being in office. 

"(aside from the ones who own the buildings obviously)"

Exactly.

OK BOOMERS

But please answer this why aren’t people mostly working in the office . Covid-19 is done 

personally I like the separation between home and office . 

When you say office do you mean Wetherspoons

Because we are no all alike and for all the reasons listed above I prefer working at home.  It's an unusual Friday in the office today as there are other people here so I'm not having my usual super productive today stuck in a building where there's nothing to do apart from work.

Have you lost the power to read, EBITDA? This thread has answered your question.

What Orwell said. With bells on. 
 

Extroverts are essentially energy parasites that get all their energy from other people.. they need a constantly supply of people and attention to feel alive. 
 

Introverts on the other hand  have limited energy supplies and feel absolutely drained after being forced to engage with other people for 8 hours a day.

The office was/is pure torture for introverts. But we adapted to it because we had to.. there was no other choice.

Extroverts miss the office because they miss their trapped supply of social energy.

EBITDA what can you do in the office that you can’t do at home? I’m genuinely curious because I am happy to go in 2 or 3 days a week but I really don’t see the need for more than that.

Often I am sat in a room, alone, discussing-stuff on teams with people who are all over Europe (and that’s in the office). Why shouldn’t I do that at home? What possible benefit does the office provide to most professionals?

exactly what scylla said

office time was genuinely harmful for me and definitely held me back in career/productivity

Late to this thread

This whole debate is very layered, and your views on it are a function of age, experience, perception of what "working life" is or should be, the subjective issues of who you work with, whether you like their company or not, what you do and how you do it.  So it is very hard to generalise.

I do think, though, that the views reported in the OP et seq are becoming entrenched. There is the "flexibility is everything - it worked during Covid so you can't stop me now, and anyway there is a war for talent on so fuq u" and there is "this is not just an execution business, what about the human interaction required to grow business?". Both arguments have merits and faults. But there is one truism.  I think the approach of deciding everything is output and there is no need to vary input, it can all be done from home etc, has a ceiling. It will simply fix people in an execution mindset and an execution role. When they want to be owners of that business (if they do - many don't) then they simply won't be known entities in relation to other elements of business leadership (management of people, growth and management of clients, cross-disciplinary engagement etc) all of which may be irrelevant if they have no aspiration in that direction and are content to limit their role to a cog in the machine but are critical issues if not.

I think we will get a realisation at some point, when a lot of good and able people get told "not yet because the personal and business case is not ready" and then there's a discussion about that. If you want to get on you have to be in among it, living and displaying values, judgement, additional creative input, problem solving, not just delivering output. Whether that is something you think is good or bad it is a thing.  It is how humans work. We are not machinery. 

I will concede that I have become friends with colleagues simply from being around them all day in a way I wouldn't have done if we only teams interacted

but I am old now I can't keep going around making new friends it's exhausting

muttley - what evidence is there that "human interaction" (in person) actually ever is required to grow a business?

what muttley said.

in other news I was the person who had to get everybody back to the office.  we did offer some carrots as well as sticks.  it is indubitable that for us, the ability to walk into each others offices is incredibly valuable.

it helps that in my industry , back to the office is market.  made hiring some support staff tricky but my sense is the "there's loads of jobs...i'll hold out for WFH" is shifting to "omg i need a job"

Clergs

maybe not in tax, I concede that.  Joke.

I can only offer you my personal experience if you want incontrovertible, subjective evidence. If you want some empirical stuff I am not a researcher. I would simply say that I always made decisions as a client of private practice lawyers based on our engagement, my trust and regard for them, and I progressed my career in house based on engagement with colleagues not absent work production.  I then moved into private practice again and have seen that from the other end of the telescope and note that the relationships which work well have that element of partnership between me and clients, me and colleagues, and most slips and trips (no matter how good the work quality actually is) come from breakdown of rapport, trust, knowledge of each other and misunderstandings driven by that. 

where is that happening cos I haven't noticed it

I honestly don't understand why some people can't handle "walking into an office" digitally

and for junior people it is much easier to teams a senior person than just strut into their corner suite

the way this seems to work is that people with a particular preference insist that it is HOW EVERYONE WORKS BEST

the idea of "bouncing ideas" is a load of shite

many people are so distracted by their discomfort that they're only 15% "present" when forced into an office

there is no bloody idea bouncing in that state

and who ever trusts ANYone in a law firm or other city environment

not being in the office means the stress of dealing with the lunatics who can't handle good morning is essentially removed

When they want to be owners of that business (if they do - many don't) then they simply won't be known entities in relation to other elements of business leadership (management of people, growth and management of clients, cross-disciplinary engagement etc)
 

I’m one of 20ish senior leaders across various disciplines running our business in addition to the exec. On any given day there will be a handful in office A, a handful in office B, one in Europe somewhere and the rest at home. At least one third are permanently remote based doing national sales stuff.

the idea that you all have to be together in the same building to run a successful business is, frankly, bollocks.

exactly what clubman said.

it must be sad for those who enjoyed the "omg I am so important" rush of the city commute to see that it is over

young people will literally not do jobs they don't like any more, though, so... going to have to flex

he basically said that the senior leaders in his org can't work the chat function, ebit

the idea that you all have to be together in the same building to run a successful business is, frankly, bollocks.

I didn't say that and I don't subscribe to the idea.

but the idea that you can be absent from a business entirely and expect to be known by your colleagues as well as if you touched in with them regularly, well that's complete bollocks.

Maybe you didnt say that.

So maybe we actually agree?

I'll agree that there is an element of forming relationships that's best done in person but I don't need to be here every day to do that and am quite happy to come in for events with colleagues and the like to be seen.  However, it is also possible for colleagues to be very much aware of you without having to physically be with them.  I have a colleague who tells clients I'm his go to man for colouring in but he joined during the pandemic and we've only met in person a handful of times but my reputation and performance have been enough to establish a solid relationship.

But there is one truism.  I think the approach of deciding everything is output and there is no need to vary input, it can all be done from home etc, has a ceiling. It will simply fix people in an execution mindset and an execution role. 

This is an extremely extrovert-centric POV. The benefits of WFH for introverts, disabled people and primary carers is not about it being all about output and execution.  It's about stripping away the untrammelled extraneous factors that don't just interfere with efficiency for those people but, for some people, actually prevent them from being able to have a career. 

It is entirely possible to socialise, manage a team, have side conversations or quick chats, develop relationships and rapport, be creative and be spontaneous working remotely.  I have had trainees who still come to me for advice years later from times when I was completely supervising remotely, and I've got people from one role where I never met any of them in person who regard me as one of their best mates.

It is entirely possible to have career or be promoted working remotely.  I was first promoted to senior management in a job where I was substantively WFH and was supported by 30 partners who had never met me.

So can we please stop with this bullshit that those who prefer WFH are about execution, having a job not a career, laziness etc. etc.  It is absolutely not the case.  That doesn't mean its right for everyone and it does mean that extroverts may actually have to compromise on having things entirely their way for decades.  And everyone else will also have to compromise, but frankly we have much more experience at that than extroverts so that won't be too hard.

Make no mistake though - this is a paradigm shift, like many others we've seen before and one which plays into the different mindset of younger generations.  There is tonnes of research on this that was going on well before Covid.  The genie is no more going back in the bottle than we are going back to boozy lunches on Fridays or a technology-free zone or women retiring when they sprog up.

Sails - agrees but you have spent a long time building what now works with the lighter touch. 
 

Clergs - I enjoy the fact that the commute is not a necessity. I have never been a powerplay weirdo. I do like my colleagues (most/many). I trust people and they can trust me. Am not surprised that human relations are liabilities not assets for you and I respect the fact that you have a different set of expectations of people and yourself, and view of how much you feel people should give, how you prefer to be removed from others and their peccadilloes. 

I am not, by classification, an extrovert btw

No but you are supporting an extrovert POV* as though  The MP of one firm I know is actually a massive introvert, but took the view that because he had to learn to curb it everyone else must too. 

*As espoused by many extroverts.  I do know some who are self-aware enough to understand that their psychological needs adversely impact some people around them rather than just being a sign of good character.

Throughout covid we were raising for one of our funds. What should have been a first close of 3 months and a final close of 6-8 months ( most existing LP's wanting to re-up) took 18 months as new and existing LPs insisted on face to face.

I for one thought it was balmy especially for existing LPs, but they are the "boss" Don't like it tough titties

It doesn't really work that way. Everyone knows that the professional services sector has more demand than supply in terms of competence and pleasantness to deal with.

Dont like it, lose money.

And they are in the minority.  The vast majority of people I know working in-house have never met their legal counsel face-to-face. Ever.  And if you don't like the way things are changing, "tough titties" to you too. This evolution has been in the works for a long time.

I first started managing someone in a different office a decade ago. We didn’t need to be in the same physical location then and we don’t now. We’d meet in person maybe once a month but talk regularly on the phone. It was fine then and is fine now.

I’m happy to go into the office whenever necessary but there hasn’t really been any occasion where it was actually necessary. I still go in when I feel like it - sometimes to break up my week or for a change of scenery but there’s no real work reason to go in. It tends to be based more convenience around my social plans.

The main advantage from working from home is losing the commute. I had the shortest commute in my team by some way and I feel the benefit of not commuting every day. Everyone else has commutes of over an hour each way. WFH has given them back 2-3hours a day. I get more work out of them on the days they don’t come into the office (and they experience fewer delays because of train or traffic problems). 
 

It is entirely possible to socialise, manage a team, have side conversations or quick chats, develop relationships and rapport, be creative and be spontaneous working remotely.

This may be entirely possible and some people may WFH like this, but my experience is that most people don't. The flexibility to work from home part of the week brings many advantages to both people and work results. When many people WFH most of the week, the negative consequences become very visible too, and in my opinion start to outweigh the positives. I would be very careful with hiring people who insist on WFH for all/most of the time.

I enjoy coming into the office, but my flat is not set up for home working and I like my commute.

I hate this particular office though.  There has been a refurb and a move to bookable offices / open plan which is shit.

I worried about colleague who lived alone in a flat didn't come into the office for months during lockdown. She told me she was just as happy in her own company (like, am I really that bad?) but there was all this paperwork building up on her desk. I'd worry about me but everyone's different.   

where is your new office Judo, if you can answer without outing yourself?

Just anecdotally I do very regular Zoom calls with law firms and big 4 firms and have not seen a single partner join from their office since January 2020. Genuinely not even once. 

So the antsy senior leadership summoning everyone back because they can't run their business properly from home is definitely not a universal phenomenon. 

I work from home a lot for convenience but I am learning I am actually far happier the days I go into the office.