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Non-binary toilets

There's someone in my department who is "non-binary". Said person prefers "They" as their preferred pronoun. "They" is clearly a biological man who occasionally dresses in a traditionally feminine manner. I don't really give a toss what this man choses to be called. What I am taking issue with is that he uses both the men's and women's toilets, based on whichever identity he feels like on a given day.

I don't feel like I can call him out or even speak to HR. Many other colleagues wax lyrical about his supposed bravery. I'd be called an intolerant TERF for saying otherwise. The firm I'm at makes a big song and dance at inclusion and diversity, and licks Stonewalls' arse. Any other radfems/ gender criticals here find themselves biting their tongue at work?

You misgendered this person. That's a microaggression. Anyway, I do use their preferred pronoun in person. I take issue with the fact that this man is using both the men's and female's bathroom. Being a man or woman is not a feeling. 

What negative impact does this person's choice of bog have on your life?

Ally McBeal has been off air since 2002 and even back then had lawyers happily using mixed gender shitters and reflects a not uncommon norm in real life. This in relatively puritanical America.

This is your issue.

It is an issue when biological men infiltrate women's spaces. This goes way beyond the toilets of a law firm. But of course, let them use our bathrooms, let them compete in our sports and let them take our awards and positions. Let them have access to all women's spaces. 

@Orwell: Both. This "non-binary" stuff is ridiculous and just reinforces how oppressive the concept of gender is. You can be a man who likes nail polish and dresses, and still be a man. You can be a female who has short hair and likes traditionally masculine stuff, but still be a female. You aren't "non-binary", you just don't comfortably fit into stereotypical gender roles and that's okay. 

Christ. The transphobia that PomPom espouses is literal violence. I feel the need to roll both my baseball bat AND my kimono in glitter and help you understand. 

The bar for "transphobia" is extremely low isn't it? Why should transpeople be beyond reproach? Are they somehow more special than any other group in society? 

It's funny how it's the TRAs who claim transpeople are in danger blah blah blah, yet you are the first to threaten violence. 

It's not both though is it.  You object to him being in your space because he says he's something that you object to.  You haven't given any reasons why you don't particularly want him in your bathrooms.

But what if you chose not to let it bother you? What's the actual harm? 

The actual harm is that it is normalising the behaviour of men going into women's spaces. Do I really need to elaborate why it is a bad idea for biological men to be allowed to enter female toilets and changing rooms? 

There is no such thing as the transgender movement.  There is such thing as a group of activists espousing an extreme view on gender identity that is not representative of transfolk on the whole.  Just as there is a group of women spousing an extreme view on gender identity that is not representative of women or feminists on the whole.

@Orwell: Because "they" is a biological man. He has zero reason to visit the women's restrooms. Acceptance of this only allows the continued erasure of women's spaces.

@Orwell: There's a literal wikipage and numerous google results on the Transgender movement. Of course it bloody exists. 

Re the feminism, liberal feminism is a total joke. 

"But why does it bother you?  Did you insist on a girls' only bathroom in your house that your father couldn't use when you were a kid?"

I never understand why this gets brought up. Yes, I grew up with my father and my three brothers. Never once was I afraid of being assaulted or raped by them. However, a stranger who enters my bathroom? Hell yes, I have that fear. 

 

 

I'm not sure what you don't get about this, PP. 

I agree that biological men shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's sport, and agree that the gender politics debate has meant that some of those claiming to represent transfolk are reinforcing gender stereotypes in the most sexist possible way. I also find it odd that the biggest group shouting about transphobic women are men.

But there I do believe there is a line between protecting women's rights and transphobia, and you are crossing it.

Of course, if you can come up with one specific reason why there is an issue with a man using your bathroom being a real threat to you that's based in evidence, I'd love to hear it,

@Orwell:

"There's just as much chance you would be assaulted by a family member as a bloke using your bathroom."

That is simply not true. See figure 10 of https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/art…. Strangers are more than twice as likely to rape or sexually assault women than family members. And this is relevant if we go back to growing up in a household and using a shared toilet example you gave. 

 

But this isn't truly a "stranger", is it?  It's someone that you work with, and know, and who - you can reasonably and sensibly assume - has been vetted, at least as much as you have been, and found to be a law abiding individual, who is as unlikely to do you physical harm as you are to do to him / her / them.

And while I may generally not disagree with you about the need to guard against erosion of our rights / spaces as women - it is not alright to sacrifice our safety and peace of mind for the allegedly greater good of a tiny minority of people - what you are talking about in this context has nothing at all to do with that, what it is (at least, how it comes across) is you just feeling a bit icky about a sometimes identifying as a bloke using the same loo as you, and the fact that it doesn't fit in with your particular agenda.

If you feel that strongly about it, focus on increasing you bladder / bowerl control so you can avoid using the loos at work.  Simples.

Nothing is stopping big hulking rapey dudes entering your toilets now. There is no security guard in your office toilet. Many clubs have toilet security for obvs reasons.

You are being a bigot. Sorry for the hard truth.

 

@Cruella: Figure 10 of https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/art… shows that "other known" (which includes peers at work) are nearly 3x as likely to commit rape than strangers. 

My issue isn't that I am scared of this man at work. It's the implications of allowing him to use the female toilets when he is clearly a male. It normalises and accepts the behaviour of men going into women's toilets and changing rooms. 

Thankfully I work at home with 5000 square feet and 5 lavatories to myself..... so I can avoid all these issues.

 

It would be better if we had a simpl,e legal distinction which is what the law has - you can change gender over 2 years, get it chopped off, grow the breasts and then you are female in law and can enter the ladies' lavatories or the women's only waiting room at my tube station.

 

Until then women who have been assaulted by men tend not to want people with a penis in their private women only space.

Also men make a huge mess of the floors - writing as someone who has spent about 30 years + clearing up male urine - latest job last Autumn involved my buying new cparlet under lay and carpet underlay backing, cleaning half the carpet in the bath and then relaying it at all hoping I won't have to do the same again soon - or do trans people with a penis sit on the lavatory?

 

Also I have expressed breast milk in lavatories and in order to get the let tdown reflex you need to feel quite calm in there - if you think a man in coming into that space given 94% of the prison population is male and more men than women engage in violence - might make it hard for the "let down" reflect to occur.

@Rof Royalty: Something is stopping them, the high chance of being caught in a law firm office toilet. What mong is going to choose Linklaters' jobby catcher as their locus?

@Lydia: We get ridiculed for expressing these fears, despite the overwhelming evidence that shows how dangerous and violent biological men can be. I don't even go jogging at night time. And yes, men's toilets are fckin disgusting. I swear they purposedly piss all over the floor to mark their scent. 

You win.

Fabricated stats about assaults in off topic changing rooms prove that those assaults were perpetrated by trans people that you fear and hate.

Sorry and goodnight.

@Rof Royalty: Using changing rooms to show why biological men going into women's spaces is a bad idea. We know the dangers. Stats not fabricated: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women…

"There were 134 complaints of sexual misconduct in sports centre and swimming pool changing rooms last year, councils said in their FoI responses. Of these, 120 related to incidents that took place in unisex changing rooms and 14 to incidents in single-sex changing rooms. As well as voyeurism, offences recorded in unisex facilities included harassment, sexual assault and rape."

Rof royalty, it is not transphobia to want to preserve single sex spaces for women. The transsexuals i know understand this. This thread is rife with a lazy misogyny which is epitomised by people like you doggedly demanding in the thread to know why women care about men in their private spaces. How is this a point being queried in the 21st century? So depressing. It’s because men are responsible for most of the violence in the world and most of the violence towards women. We know this. 
 

That doesn’t change if males announce they are now theys or claim they are women. And regardless of whether they are themselves a danger, women don’t know they are not a danger and women’s fears of violence in my mind should outrank a male’s feeling of rejection at not being allowed in ladies’ loos. It stuns me that all these men think otherwise. It feels to me like a massive failure of empathy for what is to be a woman (ironic really). It just seems so selfish of males to dismiss women’s concerns in this way, to say they need to shove aside (to not use work loos as suggested by someone above) and ignore their discomfort to validate some bloke who has decided he doesn’t fit into the gender stereotypes associated with his sex. The solipsism! My mam would give me a slap if i treated women like that.  

And then there is the issue that, even if the transwomen are fine in the bogs, we know - come on now, you know - that predatory men will do whatever it takes to get access to females. And self-ID is an absolute gift to them. They can waltz in anywhere and no-one can object, because selfish men (and some women, for shame) will brand them bigots and transphobes and try to lose them their jobs. 
 

it’s a disgrace to see a lone feminist in this thread battling off all you men, it’s a disgrace to watch you delight in having an excuse to bully a woman. I hope you’re proud. I am ashamed of my sex these days. 

I agree with Pom Pom and Donut.

Basically it’s a bunch of odd folks who want to pretend they are ‘trans’ and use ladies toilets for their weird proclivities.

its sick and sad, and I’m not embarrassed to call it out for what it is.

@don donut: Reading your reply, I initially assumed you were a female. It’s rare and so refreshing to come across men who actually empathise with our fears. I recently saw a viral tweet from a woman saying that female victims of sexual assault need to “work through their own trauma”, so they can accept transwomen using their toilets. How did we ever reach this point? 

It feels absurd why I need to explain my fear terrified of biological men coming into women’s toilets & changing rooms. You’d think the crime statistics would speak for themselves. Thank you for understanding and articulating our fears. From us women, we ❤️ U. 

I am with pom pom on this too. Having met quite a few trans that have now reverted to being just male, I dont care wtf you identify as. Be whatever makes you happy (I identify as a unicorn with the lower half of a mermaid). If you are just some hairy dude in a dress and I see you entering the washroom my daughter just entered, I will kick those nuts outta you and settle your identity crisis.  

Mixed gender toilets are totally accepted in many places in the US and there is not an epidemic of toilet assaults. 

I accept your feelings on this, but there is no evidence of increased risk.

Moral panic.

“There's someone in my department who is "non-binary". Said person prefers "They" as their preferred pronoun.”

No there isn’t, and no they don’t - HTH.

it's amazing how often this thing that never happens, happens 

for example 

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/pervert-secretly-filming-men-using-15831523.amp

and 

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/pinewood-studios-hidden-camera-found-in-ladies-toilet-at-bond-25-filming-site-11746307

and 

https://lincolnshirereporter.co.uk/2019/03/caretaker-secretly-filmed-students-and-staff-in-toilets/

and 

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/sexstarved-hair-stylist-filmed-men-in-toilets-at-the-asos-summer-party-a3918666.html?amp

And 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/sick-pervert-filmed-more-3000-7051665.amp

 

How have you turned a discussion about whether non binary people can pick their potty of choice into something about men of all persuasions filing toilets covertly?

I haven't said anything about that issue. Is it that you think men will pretend to be trans to gain access to women's toilets to plant recording devices?

Seems a bit far fetched and I don't think your links support that theory. Will do some research.

Is it something else I am missing?

Feels like excuses for 'ick'.

“Let me correct that, transwomen are biological men”

Correctuin: they are biologically male.

Male is a biological sex, man is an identity.

You said mixed sex toilets posed no risk to women and children. I've just provided some evidence that there is a very real risk. You do as much research as you like have fun with that. 

I went to a bar in Chicago once at stupid o'clock in the morning.  It had not only non binary toilet facilities, the two lavs were side by side with NO enclosure whatsoever, so I found myself having a Donald whilst sat next to a lady called Mabel from Idaho who was very chatty, with several marines pissing in the trough a few feet away.

This was quite handy, as mabel was able (ahem) to pass me some extra bog roll when mine ran out.

Other than that, all I have to add to this debate is a heh for this: "And there's a wiki page about Bellenden village"

I found a link. 

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/man-pics-in-womens-bathroom/#

Doesn't seem to support the trans thing at all.

Linda your links seem to relate to gendered toilets. I said no increased risk from mixed bogs. Your evidence shows that some men are sick perverts who should be castrated. I agree with this. It does not show that mixed toilets will make the problem worse. Your hypothesis stands, but evidence absent.

Finding one example of a mixed toilet being infiltrated isn't enough. Anecdote is not evidence.

I am done with this. It is moral panic.

 

How many of these assaults were at work, by colleagues?

As I say, I am 100%, vociferously behind the idea that the rights of a teeny tiny minority (and despite the noise that they and their supporters make, they are a teeny tiny minority) do not trump my rights not to have to put up with unknown, unvetted hoi polloi entering a space which is ostensibly dedicated to women, and at best, making me feel (quite reasonably) that my safety is at risk, and at worst, actually doing something to me or other women.  Anyone who suggests otherwise can fvck right off.

But, my point it, that is entirely different from what the original post was about - this is a colleague who she apparently knows pretty well, and bearing in mind that unisex toilets at work are hardly a new thing, I don't think that taking issue with something that is, essentially benign (a colleague using the same loo as you) because it makes you feel icky is okay.

Did the OP say she knows this person well? There are about 200 people in my building with access to my floor and its loos. I don't know most of them from Adam 

I'm late to the thread, but do not think pompom is being transphobic.  This accusation is bandied around at the drop of a hat as soon as a woman expresses discomfort at [some] men occupying womens' space.  

Who is at greater risk of assault: women in female bathrooms from sexually male female identifying (trans women), or trans women in male bathrooms from sexually male male identifying (cis men)?

 

Isnt it those cis men (of whom I am one) who are responsible for most sexual assaults on people who identify as female and also responsible for most homophobic assaults?

 

For the women who vehemently reject the possibility of trans women entering female only spaces, are you happy to accept that those trans women will be forced into male spaces and at much higher risk from men in those spaces than you are from them? 

"Who is at greater risk of assault: women in female bathrooms from sexually male female identifying (trans women), or trans women in male bathrooms from sexually male male identifying (cis men)?"

That is possibly the most horrible sentence I have ever read.

Bet you can't say it 5 times whilst eating a jacob's cream cracker.

If you google men covert filming toilet there are hundreds of stories. Hundreds 

If you google depressed women smothering their infants there are hundreds of stories. Hundreds.

by the same rationale we should remove children from depressed women

I’m on the feminist side of this (dare I say it, the “transphobic” side.) I just don’t think it’s as simple as saying that male violence is a male problem, leave us alone.

I think the solution depends on the circumstances. As stated above, is any woman going to seriously fear an assault from a trans woman colleague in the Linklaters toilets? 
 

It’s funny how all of this nonsense has only started since we had the concept of self-ID. Over the previous 30 years, transsexual people existed and used the spaces of the gender they had transitioned to with minimal fuss and probably nobody really noticed. Plus those transsexuals were no real risk anyway as the male to females were essentially eunuchs. The only people spoiling it for the rest are the Jessica Yaniv types, the ones with beards who talk about their “female penises”. These are the same people who 30 years ago would have slotted into the (at the time quite large) category of male perverts / sex offenders. 

Exactly.  You can be (a) feminist, (b) support transfolk and (c)  think that Jessica Yaniv types and the sexist shit they spout is dangerous. 

Anyone who demonises all transfolk or accuses all women who object to any part of the current debate as transphobes is an extremist. 

don donut07 Feb 20 22:10

it’s a disgrace to see a lone feminist in this thread battling off all you men, it’s a disgrace to watch you delight in having an excuse to bully a woman. I hope you’re proud. I am ashamed of my sex these days. 

You may want to review your assumptions, Mr White Knight.

It was the case at 11 last night Orwell. Where were you then? WHERE WERE YOU THEN? WITH FRIENDS? FAMILY? DISGRACE
 

the only way peace will break out is if we are all on discussion boards at midnight after some wines

It's hard to tell who is being serious here and who is on a wind up.

Of course there should not be a bloke in the women's toilets. That is simply self-evident.

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