Sir Ed Davey has said that “quite clearly” a woman can have a penis as he aligned himself with Sir Keir Starmer rather than Rishi Sunak on trans issues.
"but it was unfortunate because - as you’ll have seen from rumpole’s posts - there is a concerted movement openly engineered by the far right to create division between trans people and the broader lgbtq community, so setting up a conflict between “trans activists” who say it’s like being gay and not “mentally ill” will be lapped up by her supporters"
Again, a lie
LGB people want nothing to do with the letters, because they have nothing in common. LGB people want to be able to advocate for their needs based upon being same-sex attracted. Sexuality is innate and nothing to do with the letters. LGB people would like people to stop grouping them with the letters, as it harms their ability to advocate for what's important to LGB people.
all I took from Rumple's ramble at post 99 is that the vast majority of people who take puberty blockers make the right decision. And the very small number who decide it's not for them sometimes have less manly bones when they eventually do go through puberty. Seems a no-brainer, and we're getting this broadly right so far.
People will self-identify on a whim. As teenagers my friends went to great lengths to get into the girls dormitories of my boarding school but now instead of having to keep themselves awake to the early hours and sneak through dark corridors past sleeping teachers they'll just be able to go "sir I believe I'm a girl".
As teenagers my friends went to great lengths to get into the girls dormitories of my boarding school but now instead of having to keep themselves awake to the early hours and sneak through dark corridors past sleeping teachers they'll just be able to go "sir I believe I'm a girl".
IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE: WHAT HAPPENS IF A MEMBER OF AL QUAEDA SELF-IDENTIFIES AS THE PRIME MINISTER OF THIS GREAT NATION… DO WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM 10 DOWNING STREET?!?
Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In a sixth form girl's dormitory? At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation? What were they thinking of?
In her presentation, [Meg Kilgannon, executive director of Concerned Parents and Educators of Fairfax County] mapped out three non-negotiables in the fight against the so-called gender identity agenda, a conspiracy theory touted by anti-LGBT groups that disavows sexual orientation and gender identity. The first is to “divide and conquer. For all its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them.” In other words, separate trans activists from the gay rights movement, and their agenda becomes much easier to oppose. As Kilgannon explained, “Trans and gender identity are a tough sell, so focus on gender identity to divide and conquer.” For many, “gender identity on its own is just a bridge too far. If we separate the T from the alphabet soup we’ll have more success.”
Kilgannon identified a wide coalition of potential allies outside the Christian Right who could confront trans friendly measures. Here’s her advice on how to draw them in:
Explain that gender identity rights only come at the expense of others: women, sexual assault survivors, female athletes forced to compete against men and boys, ethnic minorities who culturally value modesty, economically challenged children who face many barriers to educational success and don’t need another level of chaos in their lives, children with anxiety disorders and the list goes on and on and on.
this could literally be verbatim the talking points of “gender critical” believers, and they are openly being shared by the fundamentalist christian right as tactics to oppose trans-supportive legislation
this is not difficult to find out - they are explicit about what they are doing
"a conspiracy theory touted by anti-LGBT groups that disavows sexual orientation and gender identity."
Again, as already mentioned to you over and over again, sexuality is innate. Whether some people think there's also a thing called gender is an entirely different issue, and limited to those who believe in it - nothing with any significance for those who don't share that belief.
"gender identity rights "
What does this turn of phrase mean? What common rights do people who believe in gender not have that those who don't believe in gender have? NB rights, not wishes, not desires.
"this could literally be verbatim the talking points of “gender critical” believers"
Evidently not, else you would have posted such. You simply can't stand for women to advocate for their dignity, safety and privacy, which is going to involve actively saying no to males often. You can't stand that you can't determine outcomes for females just based upon you as a male telling them what to do and think.
The very idea of letting women speak fills you with scorn for females. You cannot stand females.
Evidently not, else you would have posted such. You simply can't stand for women to advocate for their dignity, safety and privacy, which is going to involve actively saying no to males often. You can't stand that you can't determine outcomes for females just based upon you as a male telling them what to do and think.
The very idea of letting women speak fills you with scorn for females. You cannot stand females.
What does this turn of phrase mean? What common rights do people who believe in gender not have that those who don't believe in gender have? NB rights, not wishes, not desires.
well i mostly ignore rumpole but given that this was at least a “question” and bullace is accusing me of “not answering the question”:
it has nothing to do with people who believe in gender vs people who don’t believe in gender rumpole - you’re free to not believe in gender all you want as long as you don’t order others not to believe in it, or restrict peoples rights because of it
simply saying “sexuality is innate and gender identity isn’t” isn’t an argument - it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity that is different to their biological sex (this is because everyone has an innate gender identity, but when it aligns with your biological sex it’s difficult to notice)
it is not “social contagion”, it’s not “a form of autism”, it’s a recognised disorder and the treatment is simple - transitioning, either socially or medically
as to “rights”, every person has the right to live their lives as their true gender. these rights may not be unqualified if - for example - the individual has committed crimes or has a biological advantage in team sports, but nobody should be able to restrict the rights of an entire minority group based on their distaste for them
trans people exist. society needs to allow them to exist and function to the best of their ability within society. if individuals are dangerous or exceptional, accommodations can and should be made for them. but that should be based on the individual’s actions, not broadly applied to trans people as a class
(is that a clear enough explanation of my position bullace?)
"it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity "
Show us the evidence for this claim of yours that gender is innate then. NB this does not mean now rush to Google and type "argument to put down xphobic argument against innocent people just trying to get on with their day!"
As usual, a decent source from a peer-reviewed journal is what you're going to need to produce as evidence.
"as to “rights”, every person has the right to live their lives as their true gender"
What does true gender mean?
"it is not “social contagion”, it’s not “a form of autism”, it’s a recognised disorder and the treatment is simple - transitioning, either socially or medically"
All nonsense, as each release from the Cass team shows, and all scientific research in decent publications to date shows. In the data on children who state "I am trans", autistic children, children with multiple mental health problems, and children in care are over-represented.
No such thing as "THE TREATMENT!". This is your failed application for drama school guiding you. Children repeatedly test boundaries, try on different identities, express staunch opinions about groups they favour, and any other groups. They try being vehemently vegetarian, goth, into band x, sporty, make extreme statements about those with different views to themselves, come up with irrational arguments why their parents cannot possibly be as well-learned as the, etc etc.
All entirely unremarkable. All entirely normal.
Children by-and-large grow out of this boundary pushing, as they settle into an identity in their early adulthood.
Since you've not been able to come up with any rights that believers in gender don't have, can you be so bold as to acknowledge you lied, once again, getting caught up in your desire for attention?
Before you started promoting your hateful, anti-female rhetoric, did you struggle to get attention on rof? Is that what fuels this all for you, that you get to regurgitate the performance you put together for your failed drama school application?
Show us the evidence for this claim of yours that gender is innate then. NB this does not mean now rush to Google and type "argument to put down xphobic argument against innocent people just trying to get on with their day!"
As usual, a decent source from a peer-reviewed journal is what you're going to need to produce as evidence.
wtf are you talking about? it’s in the dsm-v you loon
here is a link from the american psychiatric association
All nonsense, as each release from the Cass team shows, and all scientific research in decent publications to date shows. In the data on children who state "I am trans", autistic children, children with multiple mental health problems, and children in care are over-represented.
there is in fact a correlation between being trans and being on the autism spectrum - i have no idea what you think this correlation proves or why you think it means people who state they are trans aren’t doing so because they are trans
No such thing as "THE TREATMENT!". This is your failed application for drama school guiding you. Children repeatedly test boundaries, try on different identities, express staunch opinions about groups they favour, and any other groups. They try being vehemently vegetarian, goth, into band x, sporty, make extreme statements about those with different views to themselves, come up with irrational arguments why their parents cannot possibly be as well-learned as the, etc etc.
""it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity "
That was your claim. Let's see the evidence. What you have claimed is not in the DSM, a manual you know nothing about.
Kindly show exactly which evidence backs up what you have claimed.
"there is in fact a correlation between being trans and being on the autism spectrum"
You haven't understood what I typed. This is not a summary of it. Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to exlpore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
"and some children are trans"
Some children state "I am trans". Some parents state "I just know my child is trans" because they are afraid their child is homosexual, and cannot stomach the idea of a same-sex attraction, so seek to subject their child to irreversible interventions to create the illusion of their child being heterosexual.
Some children state they are superman. Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool. Some children state they are astronauts. Some children state they hate their parents, and their parents could never understand them. Some children state they will bring about world peace. All entirely normal. All entirely unremarkable. All part of being children. In early adulthood, they will setlle into a more fixed identity.
That was your claim. Let's see the evidence. What you have claimed is not in the DSM, a manual you know nothing about.
Kindly show exactly which evidence backs up what you have claimed.
did you see the link to the american psychiatric association which contains a definition of “gender identity”?
look i have lots of problems with the dsm-v but i am struggling to understand how you can presumably accept that gender dysphoria exists without believing in a gender identity
(or i suppose i do know - you think it’s a massive misdiagnosis of social contagion or autism or anxiety disorders reaching back decades, but you must presumably accept that that view goes against decades of medical science from doctors and psychologists, all of whom have accepted gender dysphoria as a separate condition?)
Again, you haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim.
Nobody has denied that there is such a mental-health problem as dysphoria. That isn't what you stated though, and now cannot provide evidence for. I'll post it again for you, so you have a chance to retract another lie you've told:
"it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity "
^^^false
"(or i suppose i do know - you think it’s a massive misdiagnosis of social contagion or autism or anxiety disorders reaching back decades, but you must presumably accept that that view goes against decades of medical science from doctors and psychologists, all of whom have accepted gender dysphoria as a separate condition?)"
Again, showing your ignorance. People can have multiple mental-health problems co-existing. As an example, those with a diagnosis of depression often also go on to receive a diagnosis of PTSD (and vice versa). All entirely unremarkable, that multiple mental-health problems can co-exist.
As I already posted:
Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
Biological sex cannot conflict with anything. It simply is. We are sexed beings. We are male or female. We don't have a say in that. It doesn't matter what we think about that. It simply is. A diagnosis of dysphoria is a diagnosis of dysfunctional cognitive function. You don't seem to understand what innate means.
“how can you believe there is a condition called gender dysphoria without accepting people have an innate gender identity?”
Maybe not the best of comparisons but for Dissociative Identity Disorder (previously known as Multiple Personality Disorder) people could accept that the disorder existed without accepting that everyone has multiple personalities which were generally suppressed.
Faod, I am not saying the two conditions are comparable but explaining how people unaffected by one of them may accept the fact of their existence while not accepting any follow up consequences for the rest of humanity.
well obviously it’s not a great comparison jim but you appear to be associating rumpole’s position with the idea that being trans is a mental illness and i agree that’s the logical conclusion to what they’re saying
and fwiw that’s not what the american psychiatric association or the dsm-v says either, so either way you’re assuming something about being trans that goes against established medical opinion
i mean if you don’t believe people have a gender identity, then nobody can be trans, therefore those who are trans are mentally ill (or have “dysfunctional cognitive function” in rumpole’s words)
"rumpole’s position with the idea that being trans is a mental illness "
^^a lie, I've stated over and over again that it's 1 of hundreds of possibilities
Now for the third time on this thread, and countless times elsewhere:
As I already posted:
Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
i mean tbh the dsm-v is a complete mess because they have tried to destigmatise gender dysphoria as a mental illness whilst still allowing doctors to make a diagnosis that allows trans people to get treatment on their health insurance, so the whole thing effectively says “being trans is a completely normal variation and not a problem, unless it causes someone problems, in which case you can diagnose it as gender dysphoria” and none of it makes much sense
but that’s a us-specific issue because of their healthcare rules
the underlying point is that it presupposes an innate gender identity in people
I think you now understand their position. As far as I can tell, it’s never been denied by the strongest GC posters that they believe some people have genuine cases of gender dysphoria but they believe this is a mental disorder.
well if that’s the case it’s a mental disorder that can be alleviated by transitioning, and of course we should support that - why on earth wouldn’t we?
Tell you what Chill, why don’t you answer that yourself to show you’ve been paying attention all these years? I’ll give you a mark out of ten on how closely I think your answer might reflect Tuesday’s or Linda’s etc?
"i mean tbh the dsm-v is a complete mess because they have tried to destigmatise gender dysphoria as a mental illness "
Nonsense. Not the job of those behind the DSM. They produce factual content about mental-illness. They aren't supposed to fall under political advocacy, aren't supposed to produce content out of fear of people like you going after them on Twitter, ringing up their employees, etc.
It is what it is. Whether that be a broken leg, or a diagnosis of PTSD. It's an ailment. It's concerning. Those behind the DSM are not tasked with anything but producing factual content.
"well if that’s the case it’s a mental disorder that can be alleviated by transitioning, and of course we should support that - why on earth wouldn’t we?"
As usual, you're going to need to show evidence for that claim, Chill, and, as per usual, from a decent, peer-reviewed source.
What evidence do you have for this bold claim from a decent, peer.reviewed publication?
NB this doesn't mean you trawl Twitter looking for "Evil xphobics now must accept this data!".
"the underlying point is that it presupposes an innate gender identity in people "
You've stated this nonsense once again, having not been able to show evidence of this bold claim previously. Why? Who are you taking for an idiot in the conversation? Who do you imagine will fall for this lie?
i dunno jim - i thought they were worried about potential “bad actors” rather than supporting trans people to transition, but i understand their solutions involve stopping all trans people from transitioning by banning them from public toilets and changing rooms and rape crisis centres and playing sports, and stopping kids socially transition and stopping gender being taught in schools and not using their preferred pronouns
i also understand they want to restrict trans healthcare for those transitioning but i understand that’s likely because they don’t really believe they are trans, so should… be given different medication perhaps or maybe just told they’re not trans and their biological sex is all there is (let’s see if that works! spoiler, it definitely won’t!)
Nonsense. Not the job of those behind the DSM. They produce factual content about mental-illness. They aren't supposed to fall under political advocacy, aren't supposed to produce content out of fear of people like you going after them on Twitter, ringing up their employees, etc.
It is what it is. Whether that be a broken leg, or a diagnosis of PTSD. It's an ailment. It's concerning. Those behind the DSM are not tasked with anything but producing factual content.
ah
you have no idea what you’re talking about rumpole
In the upcoming fifth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), people whose gender at birth is contrary to the one they identify with will be diagnosed with gender dysphoria. This diagnosis is a revision of DSM-IV’s criteria for gender identity disorder and is intended to better characterize the experiences of affected children, adolescents, and adults.
Respecting the Patient, Ensuring Access to Care
DSM not only determines how mental disorders are defined and diagnosed, it also impacts how people see themselves and how we see each other. While diagnostic terms facilitate clinical care and access to insurance coverage that supports mental health, these terms can also have a stigmatizing effect.
DSM-5 aims to avoid stigma and ensure clinical care for individuals who see and feel themselves to be a different gender than their assigned gender. It replaces the diagnostic name “gender identity disorder” with “gender dysphoria,” as well as makes other important clarifications in the criteria. It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.
Persons experiencing gender dysphoria need a diagnostic term that protects their access to care and won’t be used against them in social, occupational, or legal areas.
When it comes to access to care, many of the treatment options for this condition include counsel- ing, cross-sex hormones, gender reassignment surgery, and social and legal transition to the desired gender. To get insurance coverage for the medical treatments, individuals need a diagnosis.
The Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Work Group was concerned that removing the condition as a psychiatric diagnosis—as some had suggested—would jeopardize access to care.
Part of removing stigma is about choosing the right words. Replacing “disorder” with “dysphoria” in the diagnostic label is not only more appropriate and consistent with familiar clinical sexology terminology, it also removes the connotation that the patient is “disordered.”
Ultimately, the changes regarding gender dysphoria in DSM-5 respect the individuals identified by offer- ing a diagnostic name that is more appropriate to the symptoms and behaviors they experience without jeopardizing their access to effective treatment options.
"but i understand their solutions involve stopping all trans people from transitioning by banning them from public toilets and changing rooms and rape crisis centres and playing sports maintaining the single-sex provisions detailed in the Equality Act 2010, and stopping kids socially transition and stopping gender being taught in schools and not using their preferred pronouns recognising the unremarkable part of development we call identity formation, a period of trying on new ways of seeing oneself and being seen by others, which usually occurs in adolescence, and is more stable in early adulthood, upon which the trial and error of identity formation has largely ceased"
See the difference in your wild claims, and reality?
"i also understand they want to restrict trans healthcare for those transitioning but i understand that’s likely because they don’t really believe they are trans, so should… be given different medication perhaps or maybe just told they’re not trans and their biological sex is all there is (let’s see if that works! spoiler, it definitely won’t!)"
Can you make your accusations 1 per sentence, and I will gladly respond to each in turn? This reads like more text you prepared for your failed drama school application.
“i dunno jim - i thought they were worried about potential “bad actors” rather than supporting trans people to transition, but i understand their solutions involve stopping all trans people from transitioning by banning them from public toilets and changing rooms and rape crisis centres and playing sports, and stopping kids socially transition and stopping gender being taught in schools and not using their preferred pronouns
i also understand they want to restrict trans healthcare for those transitioning but i understand that’s likely because they don’t really believe they are trans, so should… be given different medication perhaps or maybe just told they’re not trans and their biological sex is all there is (let’s see if that works! spoiler, it definitely won’t!)”
1/10 there because Tuesday’s view (which I challenged) about schools is mentioned. Abysmal attempt and I know you can do better. Must try harder.
How is what you've posted relevant, Chill? Isn't it clear to you, as someone working within a business that such media releases are written in such a way? Does the law firm you work for announce to client that they're really only interested in legal cases, if there's lots of money in it for them, and don't care otherwise? Show me examples from within the DSM which support your bold claim. I have no interest whatsoever in advertising slogans and media announcements.
Again Chill, any evidence backing up any of these claims you've made? Or just the same old will to advocate for women and children to be at risk of irreversible harm, so long as you get attention on the internet?
“well if that’s the case it’s a mental disorder that can be alleviated by transitioning, and of course we should support that - why on earth wouldn’t we?”
are there any other mental disorders where the treatment includes affirming the symptoms of the disorder?
bullace - that’s evidence that it’s not a mental disorder, not evidence that we should stop helping people transition
transitioning helps people
take an example - if we could alleviate the symptoms of ocd or bipolar disorder by having those suffering wear different clothes and be called by different pronouns, that would be *amazing*
every doctor in the country would recommend it! the doctors who discovered this safe, simple treatment would win *all the prizes*
similarly if you could alleviate symptoms of children with depression or adhd by giving them a safe, reversible medication that may over the long term cause issues with bone density, every doctor would recommend it
Some of the adverse health events reported in children given such gonadotropine releasing hormone analogs:
Damage to the hypothalamus, pituatory gland and gonads, bone fractures, blood disorders, height and body mass decreases, permanent loss of bone mineral density, early menopause, fatigue, chronic pain, mood swings, hot flashes, infertility, seizures, brittle bones, depression, anxiety, osteoporosis, decreased IQ, and impairment to cognitive functions such as linguistic ability, short-term memory capacity, mental flexibility, and inhibitory control
in more serious cases, if you could alleviate the symptoms of anorexia nervosa or suicidal ideation by giving people testosterone or estrogen - both naturally occurring hormones - but one of the side effects would be a drop or loss of fertility, guess what?
I misunderstood - I thought you were agreeing that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. What is it that you are saying is evidence that it’s not a mental disorder?
The comparison with ocd and bi-polar would be alleviating the symptoms by affirming washing your hands 500 times a day (and asserting that doing so is normal) or affirming (on the up side of bi polar) that the sufferer has almost superhuman powers and (on the down cycle) affirming the sufferers feelings that they are entirely worthless.
the less important affirming for gender dysphoria is clothes and pronouns- more important is bodily mutilation and interference with hormones (including for children).
evidence of irreversible harm caused from social transition
bollocks do you
this is one of the scariest slippages of the anti-trans right
now that they’ve made gains in banning medical treatment for trans people in the usa, they’ve started in on “but also socially transitioning is just as dangerous!!!”
social transitioning is wearing gender non-conforming clothing and being called by a different name
you cannot allow the right to ban this or scare people about it, the impact would be to take us back to the 1970s from a lgbt civil rights perspective
I misunderstood - I thought you were agreeing that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. What is it that you are saying is evidence that it’s not a mental disorder?
oh sorry bullace - i’m saying the dsm-v is trying to split the difference
i don’t have the medical knowledge to judge if it’s a “mental disorder” but i also don’t think it matters beyond allowing trans people to access healthcare on their insurance (if it does, sure, call it a mental disorder, i don’t think that should stigmatise anyone and they get free / cheaper medical care)
what i know is what medical science says works to alleviate the symptoms - i.e. transitioning - and what medical science says is its presentation - i.e. a person’s gender identity is different from their biological sex
that stuff is settled science
the rest is a political / social debate about civil and human rights for trans people
"Clinicians and parents should, where possible, delay social gender transition (Steensma et al., 2013). This is based on evidence that gender dysphoria (and cross-gender identities) frequently desist in prepubertal children (Drummond et al., 2008; Singh et al., 2021) and that premature social gender transition may foreclose the child’s gender identity development, increasing the likelihood that gender dysphoria will persist (possibly necessitating medical transition in adolescence onward)."
Steensma, T. D., McGuire, J. K., Kreukels, B. P., Beekman, A. J., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2013). Factors associated with desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria: A quantitative follow-up study. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,52(6), 582–590.
Drummond, K. D., Bradley, S. J., Peterson-Badali, M., & Zucker, K. J. (2008). A follow-up study of girls with gender identity disorder. Developmental Psychology,44(1), 34–45.
Singh, D., Bradley, S. J., & Zucker, K. J. (2021). A follow-up study of boys with gender identity disorder. Frontiers in Psychiatry,12, 632784.
-----------------------------
Cass Review interim report:
5.19.
Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.
----------------------
If a child is experiencing genuine distress, that is a matter for the professionals and should be dealt with in exactly the same way as a school would manage any other child with psychological/mental health issues. Policy in this area should not undermine the unambiguous advice for schools and colleges, as set out in statutory DfE guidance, that in relation to mental health issues:
‘School and college staff are not expected to, and should not, diagnose mental health conditions or perform mental health interventions.’
Intervening in a child’s development, in an area where teachers are unqualified, puts teachers at professional risk and also risks making mental health issues worse for the child.
Schools should not be the starting point of the gender affirmative care pathway that leads from affirmation to social transition to medical intervention.
The groups of children most likely to be on this pathway are adolescent girls, autistic children, gay and lesbian adolescents, children in the care system and those with mental health problems. Unquestioning affirmation of these most vulnerable groups is negligence.
The previously established model of care for children with gender-related distress/cross-sex identity was ‘watchful waiting.’ Children were not socially transitioned but allowed to grow up and the majority naturally outgrew these childhood feelings.
There has been no research that has demonstrated that the watchful waiting model caused harms to children, to justify its replacement with the gender affirmative approach.
Watchful waiting is a politically neutral approach.
This approach carries no risks. A school that fosters a tolerant approach to diversity should have a zero tolerance approach to bullying of any child for being different, including the boys with long hair who play with dolls and the girls with short hair who play football. Treating these children as the opposite sex is a reinforcement of stereotypes and an intolerance of difference.
A watchful waiting approach enables a school to be tolerant and flexible on gender expression and gender roles and to be supportive without lying to children about their sex.
Whatever the outcome in adulthood, all children deserve honesty from adults and no child benefits from disassociation from reality during childhood.
A watchful waiting approach does not risk creating unrealistic expectations of the wider society where not everybody will share the child’s beliefs that they are the opposite sex.
A clinical psychologist, with over 15 years of experience of working with adults, children and families
Sometimes his parents will tell him stories about how when he grows up he will be able to have surgery and acquire a penis, and because he is a child he believes them utterly, and dreams of the day that he will no longer have to deal with the dissonance between what his family and friends tell him that he is, and the body he knows he has. The dissonance that was set up by his social transition.
Social transition is a strategy with an expiry date. It’s a short-term strategy with long term consequences. It works so easily for young children – pre-puberty it truly is impossible to tell for many whether they are male or female. The young child who is transitioned is treated by everyone as the opposite sex, and because they are small, they believe that this is how things are. Everyone is happy and the social transition provides short term relief all round. Child is happy, parents are happy, we all celebrate. But in the long term, it creates a problem which is not reversible. Puberty is going to arrive, and the child who has been socially transitioned is put in an impossible situation. They’ve been told all their life they ARE a boy (and that anyone who says they aren’t is transphobic), but their body knows otherwise.
A childhood is not reversible. What we grow up being told in our childhood matters for our whole lives. It forms part of how we understand ourselves and our place in the world. A child who grows up being told they are a boy whilst knowing they are a girl will only have that experience. They can’t go back and do it again.
By the time I talk to Seth’s mother, there are no decisions left to make. She wants me to help him feel less depressed and anxious as he waits for the gender clinic. I know that I can’t ask questions about gender, or whether medical transition is really the only choice here. I can’t suggest that it might be useful to dig deeper into the distress about his female body, to experience distress rather than avoid it. I can’t suggest that learning to live in your body might possibly be better than a life of medicalisation. That could be seen as conversion therapy. It’s like working with both hands tied behind my back. It feels like I am years too late. Affirmation and social transition have completely shut off any other options.
Everyone has affirmed Seth’s explanation, and with each new step, it became harder to consider any other possibilities. Now, just mentioning delaying hormones is enough to provoke a panic attack. Affirmation is a really powerful intervention.
Agreeing with young people that they were born in the wrong body and organising their life around that belief is not a low risk thing to do. It’s a serious psychological intervention based on denial and avoidance. Believing their happiness is conditional on denying reality puts young people in a fragile state, dependent on the pretence of others for their psychological wellbeing. Affirmation feels like such a relief, but it’s a seductive illusion. Holding options open and sitting with uncertainty has never felt more difficult, or more important.
Our young people need more from us. Supporting them doesn’t have to mean agreeing with them. We owe them honesty, even if it’s painful to hear. We need to tell them that there are many reasons to feel distressed with your developing body, and just because an explanation feels right now, it might not do so for ever. We need to show them that they can tolerate distress and that we’ll help them learn. We need to tell them that we can’t avoid biological reality, no matter how hard we try, and one day they too will find this out. We need to do this now, or in the future too many of them will turn to us and ask, “Why didn’t you ever tell me I might be wrong?”
"what i know is what medical science says works to alleviate the symptoms - i.e. transitioning - and what medical science says is its presentation - i.e. a person’s gender identity is different from their biological sex that stuff is settled science"
Why can't you come up with any evidence from a decent, peer-reviewed source then to back-up your bold claims?
"what i know is what medical science says works to alleviate the symptoms - i.e. transitioning - and what medical science says is its presentation - i.e. a person’s gender identity is different from their biological sex that stuff is settled science"
Why can't you come up with any evidence from a decent, peer-reviewed source then to back-up your bold claims?
are there any other mental disorders where the treatment includes affirming the symptoms of the disorder?
or to put it another way bullace - if you want to call being trans a mental illness (occam was fond of comparing it to anorexia) you have to deal with it like other mental illnesses
if there was another mental illness where the overwhelmingly effective treatment was affirming it, you affirm it
why wouldn’t you?
it turns out there’s very very few mental illnesses where affirming it is a viable treatment, approved by decades of doctors and psychiatrists - but if there was, they’d do it, because patient care is the most important standard
to take a hypothetical example - if a severe ocd patient needs to turn the lights on and off 400 times before leaving their flat, and the solution is “why not carry a clicker in your pocket and do it as you go about your day?” and that works for them and they no longer feel stressed and can hold down a job and feel happy and empowered again, why on earth wouldn’t a doctor advise that as a treatment instead of saying “no sorry in my view you’re abnormal and we can’t give you any treatment that goes we against my view that you’re suffering from a mental illness that needs to be medically treated”?
it seems to me that many of those who believe being trans is a mental issue treat it very separately from other mental issues
i.e. if their kids are diagnosed with adhd or anxiety or anorexia or depression, they’re happy to take their doctor’s advice on treatment methods (even if of course the medication has potential side effects)
but if their kid is trans they’re happy to overrule the doctors and say “no sorry this “mental illness” is different (*because i don’t believe it exists*) so no treatment should be used, they should just be told to be happy in their biological body”
and no number of doctors explaining this doesn’t work or scientific studies showing it doesn’t work will ever convince them otherwise
because the truth is they don’t really think it’s a mental illness
to take a random example, i’d love our resident scientist rumpole to give us chapter and verse on adhd, which is a relatively very recent psychological diagnosis and which medication is being prescribed in large amounts, particularly in america
now i’m not saying that’s wrong, but i’d assume someone who’s as invested in protecting children as rumpole would be all over the details on this, another “mental illness”, and also to be able to give us details of the ages different medication is prescribed, the side effects of those medication and maybe how they compare to the side effects of eg puberty blockers
no i’d give rumpole the morning cv (god knows i can’t always respond immediately at the end of the day!)
but i’d assume they have details of adhd, depression, anxiety medication on their fingertips given their concern is children’s health and those are by far the biggest issues (and not gender identification)
happy to start a thread on how adhd medication is bad (we should start a new one)
dunno how the gc mums would feel about it tbh but it would make a change from the trans threads and i have saved up some study links (they’re sort of crazy ones like the anti-trans studies but would be interesting to give them a spin on rof)
Chill I’d be interested in an ADHD thread. I have a kid who i reckon would be on Ritalin if we were American.
Its a genuine modern parenting ethical dilemma, much like the trans stuff.
I don’t know if it ever comes up on your interminable trans threads, but the whole US healthcare system is geared towards profit, so I’m highly skeptical of it.
Lots of people I know, particularly of my parents' generation think many children now being diagnosed with adhd and the like would previously have been diagnosed as boisterous or energetic and some of this could be solved by actual parenting.
Are there any studies on whether giving a child a device to watch / play whenever they're in a setting that requires them to be quiet or stay in one place increases adhd?
"if you want to call being trans a mental illness"
Nonsense. You still aren't following the topic. People state all kinds of things. I still have someone in a sample who believes the chat app that responds to him is his girlfriend, that they'll live happily ever after together, that the app is a person. None of which is possible, as it's a chat app. We observe he believes all of this, though.
As I already posted:
"his is based on evidence that gender dysphoria (and cross-gender identities) frequently desist in prepubertal children (Drummond et al., 2008; Singh et al., 2021)"
"Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
"Some children state "I am trans". Some parents state "I just know my child is trans" because they are afraid their child is homosexual, and cannot stomach the idea of a same-sex attraction, so seek to subject their child to irreversible interventions to create the illusion of their child being heterosexual."
"Some children state they are superman. Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool. Some children state they are astronauts. Some children state they hate their parents, and their parents could never understand them. Some children state they will bring about world peace. All entirely normal. All entirely unremarkable. All part of being children. In early adulthood, they will setlle into a more fixed identity."
Males to be forbidden from competing in female categories in elite cycling competitions
Of course, they'll remain able to compete in accordance with their sex, so don't believe anyone like Chill who'll no doubt claim they are banned from cycling completely. That was never the case, and will never be the case.
Just announced all over the news. The bit I am posting is from BBC.
British Cycling is to ban transgender women from the female category of its competitions following a nine-month review and consultation.
Under a new participation policy that the governing body said was "predicated on fairness", such athletes will compete in an 'open category' with men.
The female category will be "for those whose sex was assigned female at birth".
The changes will prevent rider Emily Bridges - the country's highest-profile transgender cyclist - potentially being part of the British women's team.
Last year she was stopped from competing in her first elite women's race by the UCI - cycling's world federation - despite meeting the rules at the time.
British Cycling's policy had allowed transgender women to take part in elite female events if they met testosterone-based regulations.
But with the governing body at the heart of the debate over balancing inclusion with fairness, its regulations were suspended amid mounting controversy about Bridges and a review was launched.
"Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage," said British Cycling.
"Our aim in creating our policies has always been to advance and promote equality, diversity and inclusion, while at the same time prioritising fairness of competition.
"We recognise the impact the suspension of our policy has had on trans and non-binary people, and we are sorry for the uncertainty and upset that many have felt during this period."
Transgender women will be able to participate in non-competitive recreational and community cycling without restriction.
The new policies will be implemented by the end of the year.
Chill: I get that you support trans rights. And that's more than fine. I don't think anyone here has an issue with supporting genuinely vulnerable people.
But for the love of all that is good, please do not say things like puberty blockers are fine for children. They are not. Saying otherwise is disingenuous and dangerous.
You say you are Team Data. But data is only as good as the sample size. We simply do not have enough data to positively conclude that puberty blockers are okay to give to children. We do however have enough data to conclude that puberty blockers should NOT be given to children until we gather more data.
One of the most commonly given puberty blockers is Zoladex (initially developed as a cancer drug).
Side effects listed on the European Medicines Agency webpage for Zoladex:
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
Hot flushes and sweating. Occasionally these side effects may continue for some time (possibly months) after stopping Zoladex.
A reduced sex drive and impotence.
Pain, bruising, bleeding, redness or swelling where Zoladex LA is injected
Common (may affect up to 1 in 10 people)
Pain in your lower back or problems passing urine. If this happens, talk to your doctor.
Bone pain at the beginning of treatment. If this happens, talk to your doctor.
Temporary worsening of symptoms of your cancer at the beginning of treatment.
Thinning of your bones.
Rises in blood sugar levels.
Tingling in your fingers or toes.
Skin rashes.
Hair loss.
Weight gain.
Pain in the joints.
Reduced heart function or heart attack.
Changes in blood pressure.
Swelling and tenderness of your breasts.
Changes in your mood (including depression).
The following side effects can happen in men:
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
Impotence.
The following side effects can happen in women:
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
Dryness of the vagina.
A change in breast size.
Acne has been reported very commonly (often within one month of starting treatment).
But for the love of all that is good, please do not say things like puberty blockers are fine for children.
well first off, i didn’t - i said they are reversible and don’t cause infertility
i note all the side effects you’ve listed there hobbes, but the bottom line is trans kids need healthcare and any medication you give them is going to have some risk of side effects - it’s the doctors job in consultation with the patient to assess if the medication is justified
anyway rumpole is going to be along shortly to set out the side effects of adhd, depression and anxiety medication that can be prescribed to minors, so we can compare then
e.g. i don’t know if i’d say roaccutane is “fine for children” but it can be prescribed for acne from the age of 12 and nobody makes 500 post threads railing about it
There are children who state "I am trans". Some children state "I hate my parents and am moving out immediately", state "I will bring about world peace", state "I am vegetarian and anyone who eats meat is a murderer", state "I will do whatever I like", and so on and so on. All part of testing boundaries in the quest for identity formation in adolescence. This is entirely unremarkable. Identity formation settles by early adulthood.
As I already posted:
"This is based on evidence that gender dysphoria (and cross-gender identities) frequently desist in prepubertal children (Drummond et al., 2008; Singh et al., 2021)"
"Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
"Some children state "I am trans". Some parents state "I just know my child is trans" because they are afraid their child is homosexual, and cannot stomach the idea of a same-sex attraction, so seek to subject their child to irreversible interventions to create the illusion of their child being heterosexual."
"Some children state they are superman. Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool. Some children state they are astronauts. Some children state they hate their parents, and their parents could never understand them. Some children state they will bring about world peace. All entirely normal. All entirely unremarkable. All part of being children. In early adulthood, they will setlle into a more fixed identity."
Also, the side effects listed above (including impotence) are likely identified in adults. Not sure if the drug was ever tested in children, although it looks like it is now being given to children off label. And yet you think that it does not cause infertility in children even though it very commonly causes impotence in grown men?
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"but it was unfortunate because - as you’ll have seen from rumpole’s posts - there is a concerted movement openly engineered by the far right to create division between trans people and the broader lgbtq community, so setting up a conflict between “trans activists” who say it’s like being gay and not “mentally ill” will be lapped up by her supporters"
Again, a lie
LGB people want nothing to do with the letters, because they have nothing in common. LGB people want to be able to advocate for their needs based upon being same-sex attracted. Sexuality is innate and nothing to do with the letters. LGB people would like people to stop grouping them with the letters, as it harms their ability to advocate for what's important to LGB people.
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Several years of this bilge and still no explanation of the absurd and offensive username, surely in itself a sign of cognitive decline?
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ONLY THE CONSERVATIVES CAN PROTECT YOU FROM THE TRANSSEXUAL MENACE!
VOTE CONSERVATIVE!!
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all I took from Rumple's ramble at post 99 is that the vast majority of people who take puberty blockers make the right decision. And the very small number who decide it's not for them sometimes have less manly bones when they eventually do go through puberty. Seems a no-brainer, and we're getting this broadly right so far.
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People will self-identify on a whim. As teenagers my friends went to great lengths to get into the girls dormitories of my boarding school but now instead of having to keep themselves awake to the early hours and sneak through dark corridors past sleeping teachers they'll just be able to go "sir I believe I'm a girl".
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what a lark! Bet you had a hat that said "I'm a lesbian on the inside" as a lad.
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IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE: WHAT HAPPENS IF A MEMBER OF AL QUAEDA SELF-IDENTIFIES AS THE PRIME MINISTER OF THIS GREAT NATION… DO WE HAVE TO GIVE THEM 10 DOWNING STREET?!?
VOTE CONSERVATIVE!!
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Me? The 13th Duke of Wybourne? Here? In a sixth form girl's dormitory? At three o'clock in the morning? With my reputation? What were they thinking of?
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well it’s not a lie, is it rumpole - here’s the report from the southern poverty law centre on the “value voters summit”:
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/christian-right-tips-fight-transgender-rights-separate-t-lgb
this could literally be verbatim the talking points of “gender critical” believers, and they are openly being shared by the fundamentalist christian right as tactics to oppose trans-supportive legislation
this is not difficult to find out - they are explicit about what they are doing
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“they are explicit about what they are doing”
if only you could be explicit about what your position is. chill - not answering the question for the 50,000th time.
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what question?
have i been unclear about my position in this thread??
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"a conspiracy theory touted by anti-LGBT groups that disavows sexual orientation and gender identity."
Again, as already mentioned to you over and over again, sexuality is innate. Whether some people think there's also a thing called gender is an entirely different issue, and limited to those who believe in it - nothing with any significance for those who don't share that belief.
"gender identity rights "
What does this turn of phrase mean? What common rights do people who believe in gender not have that those who don't believe in gender have? NB rights, not wishes, not desires.
"this could literally be verbatim the talking points of “gender critical” believers"
Evidently not, else you would have posted such. You simply can't stand for women to advocate for their dignity, safety and privacy, which is going to involve actively saying no to males often. You can't stand that you can't determine outcomes for females just based upon you as a male telling them what to do and think.
The very idea of letting women speak fills you with scorn for females. You cannot stand females.
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Lol.
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Is that really the best you can come up with?
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well i mostly ignore rumpole but given that this was at least a “question” and bullace is accusing me of “not answering the question”:
it has nothing to do with people who believe in gender vs people who don’t believe in gender rumpole - you’re free to not believe in gender all you want as long as you don’t order others not to believe in it, or restrict peoples rights because of it
simply saying “sexuality is innate and gender identity isn’t” isn’t an argument - it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity that is different to their biological sex (this is because everyone has an innate gender identity, but when it aligns with your biological sex it’s difficult to notice)
it is not “social contagion”, it’s not “a form of autism”, it’s a recognised disorder and the treatment is simple - transitioning, either socially or medically
as to “rights”, every person has the right to live their lives as their true gender. these rights may not be unqualified if - for example - the individual has committed crimes or has a biological advantage in team sports, but nobody should be able to restrict the rights of an entire minority group based on their distaste for them
trans people exist. society needs to allow them to exist and function to the best of their ability within society. if individuals are dangerous or exceptional, accommodations can and should be made for them. but that should be based on the individual’s actions, not broadly applied to trans people as a class
(is that a clear enough explanation of my position bullace?)
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"it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity "
Show us the evidence for this claim of yours that gender is innate then. NB this does not mean now rush to Google and type "argument to put down xphobic argument against innocent people just trying to get on with their day!"
As usual, a decent source from a peer-reviewed journal is what you're going to need to produce as evidence.
"as to “rights”, every person has the right to live their lives as their true gender"
What does true gender mean?
"it is not “social contagion”, it’s not “a form of autism”, it’s a recognised disorder and the treatment is simple - transitioning, either socially or medically"
All nonsense, as each release from the Cass team shows, and all scientific research in decent publications to date shows. In the data on children who state "I am trans", autistic children, children with multiple mental health problems, and children in care are over-represented.
No such thing as "THE TREATMENT!". This is your failed application for drama school guiding you. Children repeatedly test boundaries, try on different identities, express staunch opinions about groups they favour, and any other groups. They try being vehemently vegetarian, goth, into band x, sporty, make extreme statements about those with different views to themselves, come up with irrational arguments why their parents cannot possibly be as well-learned as the, etc etc.
All entirely unremarkable. All entirely normal.
Children by-and-large grow out of this boundary pushing, as they settle into an identity in their early adulthood.
Since you've not been able to come up with any rights that believers in gender don't have, can you be so bold as to acknowledge you lied, once again, getting caught up in your desire for attention?
Before you started promoting your hateful, anti-female rhetoric, did you struggle to get attention on rof? Is that what fuels this all for you, that you get to regurgitate the performance you put together for your failed drama school application?
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wtf are you talking about? it’s in the dsm-v you loon
here is a link from the american psychiatric association
https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatrists/diversity/education/transgender-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/gender-dysphoria-diagnosis
i don’t need to “rush around” trying to find arguments to “put you down” - your entire position is based on nonsense
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there is in fact a correlation between being trans and being on the autism spectrum - i have no idea what you think this correlation proves or why you think it means people who state they are trans aren’t doing so because they are trans
yes i agree with all that
and some children are trans
get over it
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""it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity "
That was your claim. Let's see the evidence. What you have claimed is not in the DSM, a manual you know nothing about.
Kindly show exactly which evidence backs up what you have claimed.
"there is in fact a correlation between being trans and being on the autism spectrum"
You haven't understood what I typed. This is not a summary of it. Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to exlpore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
"and some children are trans"
Some children state "I am trans". Some parents state "I just know my child is trans" because they are afraid their child is homosexual, and cannot stomach the idea of a same-sex attraction, so seek to subject their child to irreversible interventions to create the illusion of their child being heterosexual.
Some children state they are superman. Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool. Some children state they are astronauts. Some children state they hate their parents, and their parents could never understand them. Some children state they will bring about world peace. All entirely normal. All entirely unremarkable. All part of being children. In early adulthood, they will setlle into a more fixed identity.
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did you see the link to the american psychiatric association which contains a definition of “gender identity”?
look i have lots of problems with the dsm-v but i am struggling to understand how you can presumably accept that gender dysphoria exists without believing in a gender identity
(or i suppose i do know - you think it’s a massive misdiagnosis of social contagion or autism or anxiety disorders reaching back decades, but you must presumably accept that that view goes against decades of medical science from doctors and psychologists, all of whom have accepted gender dysphoria as a separate condition?)
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"LGB people want nothing to do with the letters, because they have nothing in common."
Rumtroll, aka elected president of the LGB community. All of them.
Yet it demands evidence from everyone else. Good trolling
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Again, you haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim.
Nobody has denied that there is such a mental-health problem as dysphoria. That isn't what you stated though, and now cannot provide evidence for. I'll post it again for you, so you have a chance to retract another lie you've told:
"it is recognised by the medical profession around the world that in a minority of people with dysphoria they do have an innate gender identity "
^^^false
"(or i suppose i do know - you think it’s a massive misdiagnosis of social contagion or autism or anxiety disorders reaching back decades, but you must presumably accept that that view goes against decades of medical science from doctors and psychologists, all of whom have accepted gender dysphoria as a separate condition?)"
Again, showing your ignorance. People can have multiple mental-health problems co-existing. As an example, those with a diagnosis of depression often also go on to receive a diagnosis of PTSD (and vice versa). All entirely unremarkable, that multiple mental-health problems can co-exist.
As I already posted:
Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
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how can you believe there is a condition called gender dysphoria without accepting people have an innate gender identity?
what do you think their biological sex is conflicting with?
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Biological sex cannot conflict with anything. It simply is. We are sexed beings. We are male or female. We don't have a say in that. It doesn't matter what we think about that. It simply is. A diagnosis of dysphoria is a diagnosis of dysfunctional cognitive function. You don't seem to understand what innate means.
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you don’t seem to understand what gender dysphoria is rumpole
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“how can you believe there is a condition called gender dysphoria without accepting people have an innate gender identity?”
Maybe not the best of comparisons but for Dissociative Identity Disorder (previously known as Multiple Personality Disorder) people could accept that the disorder existed without accepting that everyone has multiple personalities which were generally suppressed.
Faod, I am not saying the two conditions are comparable but explaining how people unaffected by one of them may accept the fact of their existence while not accepting any follow up consequences for the rest of humanity.
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well obviously it’s not a great comparison jim but you appear to be associating rumpole’s position with the idea that being trans is a mental illness and i agree that’s the logical conclusion to what they’re saying
and fwiw that’s not what the american psychiatric association or the dsm-v says either, so either way you’re assuming something about being trans that goes against established medical opinion
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i mean if you don’t believe people have a gender identity, then nobody can be trans, therefore those who are trans are mentally ill (or have “dysfunctional cognitive function” in rumpole’s words)
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"rumpole’s position with the idea that being trans is a mental illness "
^^a lie, I've stated over and over again that it's 1 of hundreds of possibilities
Now for the third time on this thread, and countless times elsewhere:
As I already posted:
Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
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i mean tbh the dsm-v is a complete mess because they have tried to destigmatise gender dysphoria as a mental illness whilst still allowing doctors to make a diagnosis that allows trans people to get treatment on their health insurance, so the whole thing effectively says “being trans is a completely normal variation and not a problem, unless it causes someone problems, in which case you can diagnose it as gender dysphoria” and none of it makes much sense
but that’s a us-specific issue because of their healthcare rules
the underlying point is that it presupposes an innate gender identity in people
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I think you now understand their position. As far as I can tell, it’s never been denied by the strongest GC posters that they believe some people have genuine cases of gender dysphoria but they believe this is a mental disorder.
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well if that’s the case it’s a mental disorder that can be alleviated by transitioning, and of course we should support that - why on earth wouldn’t we?
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Tell you what Chill, why don’t you answer that yourself to show you’ve been paying attention all these years? I’ll give you a mark out of ten on how closely I think your answer might reflect Tuesday’s or Linda’s etc?
Save me some work!
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"i mean tbh the dsm-v is a complete mess because they have tried to destigmatise gender dysphoria as a mental illness "
Nonsense. Not the job of those behind the DSM. They produce factual content about mental-illness. They aren't supposed to fall under political advocacy, aren't supposed to produce content out of fear of people like you going after them on Twitter, ringing up their employees, etc.
It is what it is. Whether that be a broken leg, or a diagnosis of PTSD. It's an ailment. It's concerning. Those behind the DSM are not tasked with anything but producing factual content.
"well if that’s the case it’s a mental disorder that can be alleviated by transitioning, and of course we should support that - why on earth wouldn’t we?"
As usual, you're going to need to show evidence for that claim, Chill, and, as per usual, from a decent, peer-reviewed source.
What evidence do you have for this bold claim from a decent, peer.reviewed publication?
NB this doesn't mean you trawl Twitter looking for "Evil xphobics now must accept this data!".
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"the underlying point is that it presupposes an innate gender identity in people "
You've stated this nonsense once again, having not been able to show evidence of this bold claim previously. Why? Who are you taking for an idiot in the conversation? Who do you imagine will fall for this lie?
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i dunno jim - i thought they were worried about potential “bad actors” rather than supporting trans people to transition, but i understand their solutions involve stopping all trans people from transitioning by banning them from public toilets and changing rooms and rape crisis centres and playing sports, and stopping kids socially transition and stopping gender being taught in schools and not using their preferred pronouns
i also understand they want to restrict trans healthcare for those transitioning but i understand that’s likely because they don’t really believe they are trans, so should… be given different medication perhaps or maybe just told they’re not trans and their biological sex is all there is (let’s see if that works! spoiler, it definitely won’t!)
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ah
you have no idea what you’re talking about rumpole
understood
again, the apa:
https://www.psychiatry.org/file%20library/psychiatrists/practice/dsm/apa_dsm-5-gender-dysphoria.pdf
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(and before rumpole starts - the dsm-v is published by the apa - this is them explaining the changes they have made)
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"but i understand their solutions involve
stopping all trans people from transitioning by banning them from public toilets and changing rooms and rape crisis centres and playing sportsmaintaining the single-sex provisions detailed in the Equality Act 2010, andstopping kids socially transition and stopping gender being taught in schools and not using their preferred pronounsrecognising the unremarkable part of development we call identity formation, a period of trying on new ways of seeing oneself and being seen by others, which usually occurs in adolescence, and is more stable in early adulthood, upon which the trial and error of identity formation has largely ceased"See the difference in your wild claims, and reality?
"i also understand they want to restrict trans healthcare for those transitioning but i understand that’s likely because they don’t really believe they are trans, so should… be given different medication perhaps or maybe just told they’re not trans and their biological sex is all there is (let’s see if that works! spoiler, it definitely won’t!)"
Can you make your accusations 1 per sentence, and I will gladly respond to each in turn? This reads like more text you prepared for your failed drama school application.
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“i dunno jim - i thought they were worried about potential “bad actors” rather than supporting trans people to transition, but i understand their solutions involve stopping all trans people from transitioning by banning them from public toilets and changing rooms and rape crisis centres and playing sports, and stopping kids socially transition and stopping gender being taught in schools and not using their preferred pronouns
i also understand they want to restrict trans healthcare for those transitioning but i understand that’s likely because they don’t really believe they are trans, so should… be given different medication perhaps or maybe just told they’re not trans and their biological sex is all there is (let’s see if that works! spoiler, it definitely won’t!)”
1/10 there because Tuesday’s view (which I challenged) about schools is mentioned. Abysmal attempt and I know you can do better. Must try harder.
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How is what you've posted relevant, Chill? Isn't it clear to you, as someone working within a business that such media releases are written in such a way? Does the law firm you work for announce to client that they're really only interested in legal cases, if there's lots of money in it for them, and don't care otherwise? Show me examples from within the DSM which support your bold claim. I have no interest whatsoever in advertising slogans and media announcements.
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aw c’mon jim i thought that was pretty comprehensive!!
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Does this prove, once and for all, that you haven’t been listening?
You can have another go if you like.
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rumpole you are flailing massively here i’d step back and regroup if i were you
you didn’t know the apa published the dsm-v did you? - that’s why you ignored my earlier link
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You’re clearly under the impression this is a great line, it really isn’t.
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Again Chill, any evidence backing up any of these claims you've made? Or just the same old will to advocate for women and children to be at risk of irreversible harm, so long as you get attention on the internet?
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In fact Rumpole you’re really flailing here. The DSM clearly is “evidence”.
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And just saying chill hates “women and children” isn’t going to convince anyone but yourself, and probably not even you. Sad!
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“well if that’s the case it’s a mental disorder that can be alleviated by transitioning, and of course we should support that - why on earth wouldn’t we?”
are there any other mental disorders where the treatment includes affirming the symptoms of the disorder?
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bullace - that’s evidence that it’s not a mental disorder, not evidence that we should stop helping people transition
transitioning helps people
take an example - if we could alleviate the symptoms of ocd or bipolar disorder by having those suffering wear different clothes and be called by different pronouns, that would be *amazing*
every doctor in the country would recommend it! the doctors who discovered this safe, simple treatment would win *all the prizes*
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similarly if you could alleviate symptoms of children with depression or adhd by giving them a safe, reversible medication that may over the long term cause issues with bone density, every doctor would recommend it
every medication has some potential side effects
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I asked already
Show evidence from a decent, peer-reviewed source that transitioning helps
We have no such evidence, though we have evidence of irreversible harm caused from social transition and surgical and pharmaceutical interventions
The only possible ethical intervention is talk therapy
The only ethical therapeutic goal is acceptance of one's body
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Some of the adverse health events reported in children given such gonadotropine releasing hormone analogs:
Damage to the hypothalamus, pituatory gland and gonads, bone fractures, blood disorders, height and body mass decreases, permanent loss of bone mineral density, early menopause, fatigue, chronic pain, mood swings, hot flashes, infertility, seizures, brittle bones, depression, anxiety, osteoporosis, decreased IQ, and impairment to cognitive functions such as linguistic ability, short-term memory capacity, mental flexibility, and inhibitory control
https://www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers/
https://calgaryjournal.ca/2019/06/04/endometriosis-and-lupron/
https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-prob…"
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in more serious cases, if you could alleviate the symptoms of anorexia nervosa or suicidal ideation by giving people testosterone or estrogen - both naturally occurring hormones - but one of the side effects would be a drop or loss of fertility, guess what?
every doctor would recommend it
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well you can call them “ethical” rumpole but the fact is they don’t work (cf the dsm-v and established medical science)
trans people exist
get over it
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I asked you for evidence for your bold claims, Chill Why are you lying about such a serious topic?
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I misunderstood - I thought you were agreeing that gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. What is it that you are saying is evidence that it’s not a mental disorder?
The comparison with ocd and bi-polar would be alleviating the symptoms by affirming washing your hands 500 times a day (and asserting that doing so is normal) or affirming (on the up side of bi polar) that the sufferer has almost superhuman powers and (on the down cycle) affirming the sufferers feelings that they are entirely worthless.
the less important affirming for gender dysphoria is clothes and pronouns- more important is bodily mutilation and interference with hormones (including for children).
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bollocks do you
this is one of the scariest slippages of the anti-trans right
now that they’ve made gains in banning medical treatment for trans people in the usa, they’ve started in on “but also socially transitioning is just as dangerous!!!”
social transitioning is wearing gender non-conforming clothing and being called by a different name
you cannot allow the right to ban this or scare people about it, the impact would be to take us back to the 1970s from a lgbt civil rights perspective
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oh sorry bullace - i’m saying the dsm-v is trying to split the difference
i don’t have the medical knowledge to judge if it’s a “mental disorder” but i also don’t think it matters beyond allowing trans people to access healthcare on their insurance (if it does, sure, call it a mental disorder, i don’t think that should stigmatise anyone and they get free / cheaper medical care)
what i know is what medical science says works to alleviate the symptoms - i.e. transitioning - and what medical science says is its presentation - i.e. a person’s gender identity is different from their biological sex
that stuff is settled science
the rest is a political / social debate about civil and human rights for trans people
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"Clinicians and parents should, where possible, delay social gender transition (Steensma et al., 2013). This is based on evidence that gender dysphoria (and cross-gender identities) frequently desist in prepubertal children (Drummond et al., 2008; Singh et al., 2021) and that premature social gender transition may foreclose the child’s gender identity development, increasing the likelihood that gender dysphoria will persist (possibly necessitating medical transition in adolescence onward)."
Steensma, T. D., McGuire, J. K., Kreukels, B. P., Beekman, A. J., & Cohen-Kettenis, P. T. (2013). Factors associated with desistence and persistence of childhood gender dysphoria: A quantitative follow-up study. Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 52(6), 582–590.
Drummond, K. D., Bradley, S. J., Peterson-Badali, M., & Zucker, K. J. (2008). A follow-up study of girls with gender identity disorder. Developmental Psychology, 44(1), 34–45.
Singh, D., Bradley, S. J., & Zucker, K. J. (2021). A follow-up study of boys with gender identity disorder. Frontiers in Psychiatry, 12, 632784.
-----------------------------
Cass Review interim report:
5.19.
Social transition – this may not be thought of as an intervention or treatment, because it is not something that happens within health services. However, it is important to view it as an active intervention because it may have significant effects on the child or young person in terms of their psychological functioning. There are different views on the benefits versus the harms of early social transition. Whatever position one takes, it is important to acknowledge that it is not a neutral act, and better information is needed about outcomes.
----------------------
https://www.transgendertrend.com/gender-affirmative-model-social-transi…
The watchful waiting approach
---------------------------
https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/
A clinical psychologist, with over 15 years of experience of working with adults, children and families
Sometimes his parents will tell him stories about how when he grows up he will be able to have surgery and acquire a penis, and because he is a child he believes them utterly, and dreams of the day that he will no longer have to deal with the dissonance between what his family and friends tell him that he is, and the body he knows he has. The dissonance that was set up by his social transition.
Social transition is a strategy with an expiry date. It’s a short-term strategy with long term consequences. It works so easily for young children – pre-puberty it truly is impossible to tell for many whether they are male or female. The young child who is transitioned is treated by everyone as the opposite sex, and because they are small, they believe that this is how things are. Everyone is happy and the social transition provides short term relief all round. Child is happy, parents are happy, we all celebrate. But in the long term, it creates a problem which is not reversible. Puberty is going to arrive, and the child who has been socially transitioned is put in an impossible situation. They’ve been told all their life they ARE a boy (and that anyone who says they aren’t is transphobic), but their body knows otherwise.
A childhood is not reversible. What we grow up being told in our childhood matters for our whole lives. It forms part of how we understand ourselves and our place in the world. A child who grows up being told they are a boy whilst knowing they are a girl will only have that experience. They can’t go back and do it again.
https://www.transgendertrend.com/teenager-says-theyre-transgender/
The same psychologist
By the time I talk to Seth’s mother, there are no decisions left to make. She wants me to help him feel less depressed and anxious as he waits for the gender clinic. I know that I can’t ask questions about gender, or whether medical transition is really the only choice here. I can’t suggest that it might be useful to dig deeper into the distress about his female body, to experience distress rather than avoid it. I can’t suggest that learning to live in your body might possibly be better than a life of medicalisation. That could be seen as conversion therapy. It’s like working with both hands tied behind my back. It feels like I am years too late. Affirmation and social transition have completely shut off any other options.
Everyone has affirmed Seth’s explanation, and with each new step, it became harder to consider any other possibilities. Now, just mentioning delaying hormones is enough to provoke a panic attack. Affirmation is a really powerful intervention.
Agreeing with young people that they were born in the wrong body and organising their life around that belief is not a low risk thing to do. It’s a serious psychological intervention based on denial and avoidance. Believing their happiness is conditional on denying reality puts young people in a fragile state, dependent on the pretence of others for their psychological wellbeing. Affirmation feels like such a relief, but it’s a seductive illusion. Holding options open and sitting with uncertainty has never felt more difficult, or more important.
Our young people need more from us. Supporting them doesn’t have to mean agreeing with them. We owe them honesty, even if it’s painful to hear. We need to tell them that there are many reasons to feel distressed with your developing body, and just because an explanation feels right now, it might not do so for ever. We need to show them that they can tolerate distress and that we’ll help them learn. We need to tell them that we can’t avoid biological reality, no matter how hard we try, and one day they too will find this out. We need to do this now, or in the future too many of them will turn to us and ask, “Why didn’t you ever tell me I might be wrong?”
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"what i know is what medical science says works to alleviate the symptoms - i.e. transitioning - and what medical science says is its presentation - i.e. a person’s gender identity is different from their biological sex that stuff is settled science"
Why can't you come up with any evidence from a decent, peer-reviewed source then to back-up your bold claims?
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rumpole i know you’re a “scientist” and everything, but i have to ask - do you understand what the dsm-v is?
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Again:
"what i know is what medical science says works to alleviate the symptoms - i.e. transitioning - and what medical science says is its presentation - i.e. a person’s gender identity is different from their biological sex that stuff is settled science"
Why can't you come up with any evidence from a decent, peer-reviewed source then to back-up your bold claims?
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heh
again:
rumpole i know you’re a “scientist” and everything, but i have to ask - do you understand what the dsm-v is?
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This isn't a funny topic, Chill. Women and children are being subject to irreversible harm, and you're advocating for them to be thrown to the wolves.
You do this for attention, don't you, hence finding it all so funny and silly.
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or to put it another way bullace - if you want to call being trans a mental illness (occam was fond of comparing it to anorexia) you have to deal with it like other mental illnesses
if there was another mental illness where the overwhelmingly effective treatment was affirming it, you affirm it
why wouldn’t you?
it turns out there’s very very few mental illnesses where affirming it is a viable treatment, approved by decades of doctors and psychiatrists - but if there was, they’d do it, because patient care is the most important standard
to take a hypothetical example - if a severe ocd patient needs to turn the lights on and off 400 times before leaving their flat, and the solution is “why not carry a clicker in your pocket and do it as you go about your day?” and that works for them and they no longer feel stressed and can hold down a job and feel happy and empowered again, why on earth wouldn’t a doctor advise that as a treatment instead of saying “no sorry in my view you’re abnormal and we can’t give you any treatment that goes we against my view that you’re suffering from a mental illness that needs to be medically treated”?
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it seems to me that many of those who believe being trans is a mental issue treat it very separately from other mental issues
i.e. if their kids are diagnosed with adhd or anxiety or anorexia or depression, they’re happy to take their doctor’s advice on treatment methods (even if of course the medication has potential side effects)
but if their kid is trans they’re happy to overrule the doctors and say “no sorry this “mental illness” is different (*because i don’t believe it exists*) so no treatment should be used, they should just be told to be happy in their biological body”
and no number of doctors explaining this doesn’t work or scientific studies showing it doesn’t work will ever convince them otherwise
because the truth is they don’t really think it’s a mental illness
they just don’t believe trans people really exist
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to take a random example, i’d love our resident scientist rumpole to give us chapter and verse on adhd, which is a relatively very recent psychological diagnosis and which medication is being prescribed in large amounts, particularly in america
now i’m not saying that’s wrong, but i’d assume someone who’s as invested in protecting children as rumpole would be all over the details on this, another “mental illness”, and also to be able to give us details of the ages different medication is prescribed, the side effects of those medication and maybe how they compare to the side effects of eg puberty blockers
rumpole?
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rumpole?
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no worries will give you the morning 👍
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The first rule of online arguments:
If you leave, you lose.
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no i’d give rumpole the morning cv (god knows i can’t always respond immediately at the end of the day!)
but i’d assume they have details of adhd, depression, anxiety medication on their fingertips given their concern is children’s health and those are by far the biggest issues (and not gender identification)
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well unless rumpoles issue is not children’s health but rather gender issues
but i can’t believe that given their stated position as a scientist
no i’m sure they’ll come through
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well we’ll see tomorrow
happy to start a thread on how adhd medication is bad (we should start a new one)
dunno how the gc mums would feel about it tbh but it would make a change from the trans threads and i have saved up some study links (they’re sort of crazy ones like the anti-trans studies but would be interesting to give them a spin on rof)
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Chill wins TKO!
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Chill I’d be interested in an ADHD thread. I have a kid who i reckon would be on Ritalin if we were American.
Its a genuine modern parenting ethical dilemma, much like the trans stuff.
I don’t know if it ever comes up on your interminable trans threads, but the whole US healthcare system is geared towards profit, so I’m highly skeptical of it.
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Lots of people I know, particularly of my parents' generation think many children now being diagnosed with adhd and the like would previously have been diagnosed as boisterous or energetic and some of this could be solved by actual parenting.
Are there any studies on whether giving a child a device to watch / play whenever they're in a setting that requires them to be quiet or stay in one place increases adhd?
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"if you want to call being trans a mental illness"
Nonsense. You still aren't following the topic. People state all kinds of things. I still have someone in a sample who believes the chat app that responds to him is his girlfriend, that they'll live happily ever after together, that the app is a person. None of which is possible, as it's a chat app. We observe he believes all of this, though.
As I already posted:
"his is based on evidence that gender dysphoria (and cross-gender identities) frequently desist in prepubertal children (Drummond et al., 2008; Singh et al., 2021)"
"Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
"Some children state "I am trans". Some parents state "I just know my child is trans" because they are afraid their child is homosexual, and cannot stomach the idea of a same-sex attraction, so seek to subject their child to irreversible interventions to create the illusion of their child being heterosexual."
"Some children state they are superman. Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool. Some children state they are astronauts. Some children state they hate their parents, and their parents could never understand them. Some children state they will bring about world peace. All entirely normal. All entirely unremarkable. All part of being children. In early adulthood, they will setlle into a more fixed identity."
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Some good news for females and fair play
Males to be forbidden from competing in female categories in elite cycling competitions
Of course, they'll remain able to compete in accordance with their sex, so don't believe anyone like Chill who'll no doubt claim they are banned from cycling completely. That was never the case, and will never be the case.
Just announced all over the news. The bit I am posting is from BBC.
British Cycling is to ban transgender women from the female category of its competitions following a nine-month review and consultation.
Under a new participation policy that the governing body said was "predicated on fairness", such athletes will compete in an 'open category' with men.
The female category will be "for those whose sex was assigned female at birth".
The changes will prevent rider Emily Bridges - the country's highest-profile transgender cyclist - potentially being part of the British women's team.
Last year she was stopped from competing in her first elite women's race by the UCI - cycling's world federation - despite meeting the rules at the time.
British Cycling's policy had allowed transgender women to take part in elite female events if they met testosterone-based regulations.
But with the governing body at the heart of the debate over balancing inclusion with fairness, its regulations were suspended amid mounting controversy about Bridges and a review was launched.
"Research studies indicate that even with the suppression of testosterone, transgender women who transition post-puberty retain a performance advantage," said British Cycling.
"Our aim in creating our policies has always been to advance and promote equality, diversity and inclusion, while at the same time prioritising fairness of competition.
"We recognise the impact the suspension of our policy has had on trans and non-binary people, and we are sorry for the uncertainty and upset that many have felt during this period."
Transgender women will be able to participate in non-competitive recreational and community cycling without restriction.
The new policies will be implemented by the end of the year.
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Clive a bit early with the towel there in Rumtroll’s corner. It’s off the canvas and weaving and jabbing again.
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"Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool"
And that's fine.
So long as the little f**kers don't get any funny ideas about Taylor.
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Heh
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Chill: I get that you support trans rights. And that's more than fine. I don't think anyone here has an issue with supporting genuinely vulnerable people.
But for the love of all that is good, please do not say things like puberty blockers are fine for children. They are not. Saying otherwise is disingenuous and dangerous.
You say you are Team Data. But data is only as good as the sample size. We simply do not have enough data to positively conclude that puberty blockers are okay to give to children. We do however have enough data to conclude that puberty blockers should NOT be given to children until we gather more data.
One of the most commonly given puberty blockers is Zoladex (initially developed as a cancer drug).
Side effects listed on the European Medicines Agency webpage for Zoladex:
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
Common (may affect up to 1 in 10 people)
The following side effects can happen in men:
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
The following side effects can happen in women:
Very common (may affect more than 1 in 10 people)
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well first off, i didn’t - i said they are reversible and don’t cause infertility
i note all the side effects you’ve listed there hobbes, but the bottom line is trans kids need healthcare and any medication you give them is going to have some risk of side effects - it’s the doctors job in consultation with the patient to assess if the medication is justified
anyway rumpole is going to be along shortly to set out the side effects of adhd, depression and anxiety medication that can be prescribed to minors, so we can compare then
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e.g. i don’t know if i’d say roaccutane is “fine for children” but it can be prescribed for acne from the age of 12 and nobody makes 500 post threads railing about it
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There are children who state "I am trans". Some children state "I hate my parents and am moving out immediately", state "I will bring about world peace", state "I am vegetarian and anyone who eats meat is a murderer", state "I will do whatever I like", and so on and so on. All part of testing boundaries in the quest for identity formation in adolescence. This is entirely unremarkable. Identity formation settles by early adulthood.
As I already posted:
"This is based on evidence that gender dysphoria (and cross-gender identities) frequently desist in prepubertal children (Drummond et al., 2008; Singh et al., 2021)"
"Stating "I am trans" tells us nothing about someone's cognitive health. It tells us there are things to explore in their thinking, which may indicate any number of ailments, or social contagion, or parental pressure, or any other of the hundreds of reasons people state "I am trans".
"Some children state "I am trans". Some parents state "I just know my child is trans" because they are afraid their child is homosexual, and cannot stomach the idea of a same-sex attraction, so seek to subject their child to irreversible interventions to create the illusion of their child being heterosexual."
"Some children state they are superman. Some children state they are going to marry whichever popstar of the time is cool. Some children state they are astronauts. Some children state they hate their parents, and their parents could never understand them. Some children state they will bring about world peace. All entirely normal. All entirely unremarkable. All part of being children. In early adulthood, they will setlle into a more fixed identity."
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i think rumpole’s crashed, could someone turn it off and on again?
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How would you do that, it has no obvious switch.
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But we don't know that and cannot confidently state that based on the data available to date.
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Also, the side effects listed above (including impotence) are likely identified in adults. Not sure if the drug was ever tested in children, although it looks like it is now being given to children off label. And yet you think that it does not cause infertility in children even though it very commonly causes impotence in grown men?
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