Sir Ed Davey has said that “quite clearly” a woman can have a penis as he aligned himself with Sir Keir Starmer rather than Rishi Sunak on trans issues.
When the LDs get into coalition govt, which seems to be the fantasy of many on here, the natural conclusion is that women’s spaces will be filled with penises.
Vote Tory to stop this sort of thing, if you care about it obviously.
As for the policy, given that its consistent with what objective medical science tells us I should hope that would be any rational and fair-minded person's position.
"Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological rather than medical. This is because in many cases gender variant behaviour or feelings disappear as children reach puberty"
Wasn't someone firing shots at JK Rowling in the other thread for suggesting that there was a mental aspect to this issue?
"given that its consistent with what objective medical science tells us"
saying this over and over again doesn’t make it any less untrue. if we indulge you for a minute and pretend it’s true - until the 1980s objective medical science told us that homosexuality was a mental disorder - so your make believe world wouldn’t be the slam dunk you fantasise about. medical science is not immune from ideology, hysteria, and magical thinking.
Wasn't someone firing shots at JK Rowling in the other thread for suggesting that there was a mental aspect to this issue?
hi actus 👋
yes gender dysphoria is generally considered a mental disorder by the medical community
it is a completely normal thing! it can be treated by transitioning (socially or medically), it’s no more unusual that adhd or autism or anxiety
trans people, if properly identified, can live completely normal lives (and kick ass while doing so!)
jkr was talking about the scottish government’s gender recognition process and saying that “trans activists” were “pushing” to “depathologise” being trans, and argue that it’s not a mental illness but as normal as being gay (which of course is true)
from context it read to me as though jkr disagreed with this view, which is why i brought it up
in fairness another poster (hobbes i think) disagreed and said jkr was just making an uncontroversial comment about nicola sturgeons position
i don’t think she was, but very few people seemed to pick up on her quote so i dropped it
did you read it? what did you think she was trying to say with that paragraph?
When the LDs get into coalition govt, which seems to be the fantasy of many on here, the natural conclusion is that women’s spaces will be filled with penises.
Vote Tory to stop this sort of thing, if you care about it obviously.
it's kinda weird, cause the traditional Tory line has always been "stop women only spaces cause you are bullying men and young boys are getting confused and not manly enough!"
saying this over and over again doesn’t make it any less untrue. if we indulge you for a minute and pretend it’s true - until the 1980s objective medical science told us that homosexuality was a mental disorder - so your make believe world wouldn’t be the slam dunk you fantasise about. medical science is not immune from ideology, hysteria, and magical thinking.
Pretty much word for word what bigoted morons still say about homosexuals, which you ironically even also refer to in your post. Humans are obviously evolved to reproduce via male/female sex, yet here are all these gay people, which non-bigots now accept as a perfectly normal human variation, even though we have no real idea what makes a small minority of brains diametrically reverse and sexually and romanticaly desire the same rather than a different gender to them. Yet in the same sentence you can't wrap your head around the possibility, that the /medical community have long been satisfied is the case, that another similar human variation, although even more rare, is that some brains identify as the opposite gender to their biological sex, or to neither gender. Instead you think you know better about these things than the actual objective medical specalists in this field.
It's such a stupid position it would be laughable if it didn't result in such cruelty towards an already vulnerable minority.
yes bentines, though of course equating “having kids” as “normal” is one of the ways the narrative is framed by the fundamentalist right, so i’d avoid that
for gods sake - puberty blockers don’t have any effect on fertility, this place has been overrun with anti-trans propaganda
even rumpole’s transgendertrend links (which i assume will be along shortly) show their side effects are things like “weight gain” “headaches” and “irritability”
A recent study from Boston IVF, a fertility clinic and research organization, based on eight years of patient data, revealed that transgender men who stopped taking testosterone for an average of four months had similar egg yields to cisgender (nontransgender) women when undergoing ovarian stimulation.
“The numbers were very small (about 25 patients in total), but it was very reassuring that even though these transgender men had taken testosterone, when they stopped it and were treated, they responded well and we had good outcomes,” said Dr. Samuel Pang, a reproductive endocrinologist and medical director at Boston IVF.
nobody is “sterilizing” anyone - there are trans men who have become pregnant - it’s been widely shared!
of course some trans people who surgically transition will not be able to have children naturally, but they can still have children! they can adopt or use a surrogate - in fact all the same ways gay couples can have children are open to them!
Puberty blockers cause significant issues for children. They are validly used for young children who suffer very early puberty with lower reported adverse effect. They can be hugely damaging for teenagers however who have reached puberty at the appropriate stage. That could be fine, if the child was able to consent and would not "desist" once they were slightly older, however the evidence is showing that the majority to desist, but those who have taken puberty blockers have not developed normally as a result and can face lifelong issues.
You seem to think that puberty blockers and hormones are like placebos - they are not. You should look further than a few trans friends or tiktok.
thirdfuse, if they “desist” the effects reverse themselves and there is no impact on fertility
the concern over puberty blockers is that they “put” trans children on a “pathway” to hormone treatment, which can impact on longer term fertility
this is what all the “85%-90% of children on puberty blockers go on to have further treatment” stats are thrown around, and the arguments about “affirmative treatment”
now obviously i don’t find this surprising because kids who are trans tend to continue to be trans, and “desistance” rates are relatively low (though not unheard of!)
but puberty blockers do not cause fertility problems as on said in her post above - that is misinformation designed to scare parents away from treatment for their trans children
HI Chill - you are incorrect that the effects reverse themselves. Your info is out of date.
And whilst you say kids who are trans tend to continue to be trans.. and desistance rates are relatively low, this is also incorrect. It sounds like something straight out of activist propaganda and is the opposite of what is happening now.
I can see you are trying very hard to be awesome and to "be kind" but you are not being kind to kids.
The pathway isnt "treatment".
I'm beginning to think you are a dangerous individual trying to look cheerful as if everything will be awesome for everyone if all kids who say they are trans are put on the pathway. You're missing out so much of the picture. Helping kids and realising many teenagers in that situation will desist is not transphobic.
depressing that i can make your argument better than you can tbh
Thats because you keep spouting nonsense not backed up by medical evidence. Very easy to do.
Teaching children they can change sex isn’t kind. They can’t change sex. Teaching them they can is the pathway for a lot of future pain rather than helping them embrace the sex they are.
See in my mind a transgender man who still has female reproductive organs isn't a man as they haven't fully transitioned. Similarly a trans woman who still has a cock and balls isn't a woman.
Yes, the effects of puberty blockers are reversible. This is true whether the medication is being used to treat precocious puberty or as part of gender affirming care.
When a person stops taking puberty blockers, their body will resume puberty exactly as it would have had they never taken the medication, says Jennifer Osipoff, MD, a pediatric endocrinologist at Stony Brook Children’s Hospital in New York.
And whilst you say kids who are trans tend to continue to be trans.. and desistance rates are relatively low, this is also incorrect.
the relevant study is page 139 - it’s a long doc so i’ll paste it below and bold the relevant bit:
Detransitioning refers to the process whereby people who have undergone gender transition later identify or present as the gender that was assigned to them at birth. Transgender people may also go on to retransition, that is, to identify or present with a different transgender identity. Detransition and retransition may involve a change in identity, social presentation, legal documentation, or physical interventions. Most previous studies indicate very low rates of detransition. Some people who do not detransition, may still feel regret related to their transition. The aim of this study was to investigate treatment outcomes in a UK National Health Service (NHS) adult gender identity clinic by examining the rates of and reasons for detransition and regret.
Methods
Patient assessment reports created between August 1st 2016 to August 1st 2017 were scanned electronically for words related to detransition or regret. The reports that were retrieved in the search were reviewed by study authors to identify evidence that patients had detransitioned or expressed regret related to their transition. Data extraction included patients’ age, gender identity, gender assigned at birth, and descriptions of their detransition or regret.
Results and Conclusions
Of the 3398 patients who had appointments during this period, 16 (0.47%) expressed transition-related regret or de- transitioned. Of these 16, one patient expressed regret but was not considering detransitioning, two had expressed regret and were considering detransitioning, three had detransitioned, and ten had detransitioned temporarily. The reasons stated by patients for their regret or detransition included: social factors, reporting physical complica- tions, and changing their mind about their gender identity and identifying as their gender assigned at birth. The 16 patients consisted of 11 trans women, two trans men, two cis men, and one person assigned male at birth who said their gender identity was “trans”.
Study findings are consistent with previous research showing low rates of detransition. Detransition was most of- ten prompted by social difficulties rather than changes in gender identity or physical complications and was most often temporary. Only three patients made a long-term detransition. Strengths of this study include our use of an electronic search to efficiently scan a large number of patient records and our investigation of reasons for regret and detransition. Limitations of this study include that it only provides a snapshot of current rates of detransition and regret and relied on self-reported experiences of patients who may not have disclosed information relevant to this study in their appointments. These results suggest that current practices at the clinic are related to very low rates of detransition and regret. Future studies in gender identity clinics may investigate factors that predict detransition in a larger sample of patients.
that’s the uk study, but just in case you don’t like the focus on detransition there (though it also picked up regret, which is a proxy for desistance), here’s the international data:
In updated treatment guidelines issued last year, the World Professional Association for Transgender Health said evidence of later regret is scant, but that patients should be told about the possibility during psychological counseling.
Dutch research from several years ago found no evidence of regret in transgender adults who had comprehensive psychological evaluations in childhood before undergoing puberty blockers and hormone treatment.
Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.
I'm beginning to think you are a dangerous individual trying to look cheerful as if everything will be awesome for everyone if all kids who say they are trans are put on the pathway. You're missing out so much of the picture. Helping kids and realising many teenagers in that situation will desist is not transphobic.
thirdfuse i don’t know if you’re new or an old poster with a new name, but i promise you i am and have always been #teamdata - i have done all the research on this which is why i am confident in my position and more than ever convinced that the “gender critical” position is based on misinformation and anti-trans propaganda
On puberty blockers - a googled article isnt up to much
well it’s a quote from a paediatric doctor in new york
look - puberty blockers have been used for decades - do you think doctors have been aware the effects are irreversible but have been lying to patients and the public about it? do you think the patients realise they’re irreversible but have not said anything to anyone? do you think they’ve only recently become irreversible for some reason?
On detrans - articles are signficantly out of date, things have evolved very rapidly. Now significant rates of detrans
last point for now - "vast vast majority of medical science" - there's research but gender theory is exactly that - not fact. We have studies and theory, reflecting pain and heartache. Important to keep that in mind especially as children are involved.
I read the paragraph and thought, at best, it was an unfortunate choice of words by JK. I'm not sure what benefit there is to the discussion by using the phrase "as normal as being gay".
We've been shown throughout history that categorising things as normal, and other things presumably therefore as not normal, has rarely helped the health and happiness of those who are "not normal" and are already feeling excluded as is.
Of course it does. Children live in fantasy worlds until at least age 7/8 where they are mermaids and superheroes and the opposite sex to their birth sex.
i get that actus and i can give her the benefit of the doubt on it because i know she normally doesn’t say that kind of thing so openly
but it was unfortunate because - as you’ll have seen from rumpole’s posts - there is a concerted movement openly engineered by the far right to create division between trans people and the broader lgbtq community, so setting up a conflict between “trans activists” who say it’s like being gay and not “mentally ill” will be lapped up by her supporters
last point for now - "vast vast majority of medical science" - there's research but gender theory is exactly that - not fact. We have studies and theory, reflecting pain and heartache.
big “it’s called the theory of evolution” energy here
the studies (including all those i’ve linked) are in fact science
Wow hot take here for the day is having kids is right wing fundamentalism (but not if you’re gay or trans then jts just normal) and evolution is a theory
And that the legitimate opinions expressed by a group of people are in fact are just a far right conspiracy. I love the saying on the one hand that you can't group people together at the same time as saying that a whole group are wrong.
prioritising having children as “normal” (especially at the expense of people’s mental or physical health) is of course one of the ways the fundamentalist right exercises control over people
its the entire point of the emphasis on the “traditional family”
i’m surprised i even have to point this out
have either of you heard of the roman catholic church for example?
of course some trans people who surgically transition will not be able to have children naturally, but they can still have children! they can adopt or use a surrogate - in fact all the same ways gay couples can have children are open to them!
but
Hereronormative couples choosing to have kids - agent of right wing fundamentalism
I’d prefer to encourage my kids to be happy in their own skin and sex than make a world for them where they are a different sex and then they wake up hating their bodies for performing the normal functions of life and puberty
wading through the fudge, cant, dissembling, misdirection, ideological fantasy facts, slime, misrepresentation, etc. etc. is very tedious chill- you don’t post to be “understood” your oeuvre is a strange and structurally unsafe castle built on the sand of your sect’s fantasies.
your view is based on very old, very dangerous conspiracy theories designed to install fear and distrust in doctors, psychologists and of course gender non-conforming people
do fvck off chill - your faux reasonable and pragmatic mask slipped ages ago. you don’t engage in good faith and your cult of zealous ideologues are putting children on a path to misery. enough.
I’m sure both sides can find articles from scientific reviews to support their view. The whole point is it appears currently to be unclear and therefore it is much better to play it safe if so.
”Transgender individuals who undergo gender-affirming medical or surgical therapies are at risk for infertility. Suppression of puberty with gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist analogs (GnRHa) in the pediatric transgender patient can pause the maturation of germ cells, and thus, affect fertility potential.”
More fear is stoked by rhetoric about a malevolent threat to children. Social conservatives in the USA, UK, and Australia frame gender-affirming care as child abuse and medical experimentation. This stance wilfully ignores decades of use of and research about puberty blockers and hormone therapy: a collective enterprise of evidence-based medicine culminating in guidelines from medicalassociations such as the Endocrine Society and American Academy of Pediatrics. Puberty blockers are falsely claimed to cause infertility and to be irreversible, despite no substantiated evidence. The dominance of the infertility narrative, usually focused on child-bearing ability, perhaps reveals more about conservatives' commitment to women's role as child-bearers. Puberty blockers are framed as pushing children into taking hormones, whereas the time they provide allows for conversations with health providers and parents on different options. Gender transition involves many decisions over a long time, and those who take hormones do so because they are trans. Contrary to claims of a new phenomenon, trans youth have always existed; historians show they have sought trans medicine since it became possible: the 1930s in the USA.
the lancet will now be accused of being “captured” by an insidious conspiracy of powerful “gender theory” activists, who work in the shadows to abuse children
I hate your blind arrogance and the risk to vulnerable people that it presents - I don’t (and you can’t point to anything suggesting that I do) hate any person because of what they are or what they believe. you are wielding classic tool of ideologues. your slogan of childlike vacuousness reminds me of another group of blind, magical thinking zealots (evangelical christians in this case) screeching “you called our children monkeys!” at Richard Dawkins while hounding him away from their church - he was a bit baffled initially but realised what they meant was that accepting evolutionary theory meant he was calling their children monkeys…. rather than the God’s creation.
I’d prefer to encourage my kids to be happy in their own skin and sex than make a world for them where they are a different sex and then they wake up hating their bodies for performing the normal functions of life and puberty
um I think the point is that most people who are considering transitioning are past that point and already “wake up hating their bodies for performing the normal functions of life and puberty”
pretty much no-one transitions on a whim (despite what a lot of the ring wing media suggests)
tsb - they don’t affect it long term (ob said they “utterly fvck with it”, which is a scaremongering anti-trans healthcare lie) because they are completely reversible
quite obviously because they are called “puberty blockers” their purpose is to delay puberty
having done this with anna many times georgey she wouldn’t have argued the point for 500+ posts (she couldn’t, it’s unarguable)
she would have pivoted quickly to keira bell and the cass report (none of which say anything about puberty blockers and fertility, but throw up a lot of dust about hormone treatments), then escalated to trans healthcare being “a medical scandal more destructive than thalidomide”, then started accusing me personally of wanting to abuse children and throwing around how much of a misogynist I am
one of the most impressive things is how we’ve mostly managed to stay on track with only bullace getting personally abusive
a better thread i think (even if you don’t agree with me)
Anna would be perfectly capable of arguing for 500+ posts on this. It's easy when all you're doing is changing a few words from what you've said a thousand times before.
Chill you are gr8 at dissembling and misleading I want you on my PR team if I ever need one
”having children” of course as a phrasal verb has two meanings. In the context of fertility, as you well know, it means to gestate and to give birth to a child. As in “I had my first child in 2011” . Of course, not in the present context of fertility, it might also mean ‘I am the legal parent of a child’.
Clearly you love using ambiguity and wordplay to misdirect and to create an alternative reality in which to dwell and I applaud you for your efforts
"even rumpole’s transgendertrend links (which i assume will be along shortly) show their side effects are things like “weight gain” “headaches” and “irritability”
^^^more lies from you Chill
A post of mine from Feb 2022:
"These developments (pushing kids down a path of irreversible treatments) are led by for-profit medical companies, that profit from kids being subject to irreversible treatments, that require lifelong surgical and pharmaceutical interventions
Any intervention but talk therapy to explore is causing irreversible damage to children (surgical, pharmaceutical), who will have to live the rest of their lives with developmental damage to their bodies
We are not being permitted to do the necessary scientific research, to inform decisions that are being made to subject children to lifelong medical interventions with dire consequences for their bodies
Do you know the sorts of problems children given gonadotropine releasing hormone analogs to interrupt their puberty face, Jack? Do you know that such interventions were first used as end-stage prostate cancer drugs, and to chemically castrate sex offenders in Broadmoor?
Do you know why puberty matters biologically to whole healthy bodily development, and why pharmaceutical attempts to interrupt it has dire consequences for the entire body? Do you know the possible dangers in giving off-label medications experimentally to anyone, let alone kids in the peak of development? Does that strike you as in accordance with our ethical undertakings?
Some of the adverse health events reported in children given such gonadotropine releasing hormone analogs:
Damage to the hypothalamus, pituatory gland and gonads, bone fractures, blood disorders, height and body mass decreases, permanent loss of bone mineral density, early menopause, fatigue, chronic pain, mood swings, hot flashes, infertility, seizures, brittle bones, depression, anxiety, osteoporosis, decreased IQ, and impairment to cognitive functions such as linguistic ability, short-term memory capacity, mental flexibility, and inhibitory control
"1.25.There has not been routine and consistent data collection within GIDS, which means it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways that children and young people take through the service.
1.26.Internationally as well as nationally, longer-term follow-up data on children and young people who have been seen by gender identity services is limited, including for those who have received physical interventions; who were transferred to adult services and/or accessed private services; or who desisted, experienced regret or detransitioned.
1.27.There has been research on the short-term mental health outcomes and physical side effects of puberty blockers for this cohort, but very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes.
2.18.The disagreement and polarisation is heightened when potentially irreversible treatments are given to children and young people, when the evidence base underlying the treatments is inconclusive, and when there is uncertainty about whether, for any particular child or young person, medical intervention is the best way of resolving gender-related distress.
2.19.As with many other contemporary polarised disagreements, the situation is exacerbated when there is no space to have open, non-judgemental discussions about these differing perspectives. A key aim of this review process will be to encourage such discussions in a safe and respectful manner so that progress can be made in finding solutions.
3.10.In the last few years, there has been a significant change in the numbers and case-mix of children and young people being referred to GIDS.29 From a baseline of approximately 50 referrals per annum in 2009, there was a steep increase from 2014-15, and at the time of the CQC inspection of the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust in October 2020 there were 2,500 children and young people being referred per annum, 4,600 children and young people on the waiting list, and a waiting time of over two years to first appointment. This has severely impacted on the capacity of the existing service to manage referrals in the safe and responsive way that they aspire to and has led to considerable distress for those on the waiting list.
3.11.This increase in referrals has been accompanied by a change in the case-mix from predominantly birth-registered males presenting with gender incongruence from an early age, to predominantly birth-registered females presenting with later onset of reported gender incongruence in early teen years. In addition, approximately one third of children and young people referred to GIDS have autism or other types of neurodiversity. There is also an over-representation percentage wise (compared to the national percentage) of looked after children.
3.12.In 2019, GIDS reported that about 200 children and young people from a referral base of 2,500 were referred on to the endocrine pathway. There is no published data on how the other children and young people from this referral baseline were managed, for example if: their gender dysphoria was resolved; they were still being assessed or receiving ongoing psychological support and input; they were not eligible for puberty blockers due to age; they were referred to endocrine services at a later stage; they were transferred to adult services; or they accessed private services.
3.22. Regardless of the nature of the assessment process, some children and young people will remain fluid in their gender identity up to early to mid-20s, so there is a limit as to how much certainty one can achieve in late teens. This is a risk that needs to be understood during the shared decision making process with the young person.
3.23. It is also important to note that any data that are available do not relate to the current predominant cohort of later-presenting birth-registered female teenagers. This is because the rapid increase in this subgroup only began from around 2014-15. Since young people may not reach a settled gender expression until their mid-20s, it is too early to assess the longer-term outcomes of this group.
4.21. GPs have expressed concern about being pressurised to prescribe puberty blockers or feminising/masculinising hormones after these have been initiated by private providers
4.5. We have heard that some young people learn through peers and social media what they should and should not say to therapy staff in order to access hormone treatment; for example, that they are advised not to admit to previous abuse or trauma, or uncertainty about their sexual orientation. We have also heard that many of those seeking NHS support identify as non-binary, gender non-conforming, or gender fluid. We understand that some young people who identify as non-binary feel their needs are not met by clinical services unless they give a binary narrative about their gender preferences."
Proponents of putting gender-confused children on puberty-blocking drugs have long said there’s no harm in pressing pause on their physical development while they take time to consider their identity. “It’s completely reversible,” said Stephen Rosenthal, a pediatric endocrinologist at the University of California, San Francisco, in a 2016 cover story for UCSF magazine. “You take them off it, and they resume puberty.”
But a long-term study by the United Kingdom’s leading facility for treating gender-dysphoric children found otherwise. Contrary to common beliefs about puberty-blocking drugs, the majority of children who take them do not resume puberty.
In a Dec. 2 preprint of the study from the Tavistock and Portman National Health Service Foundation Trust, all but one child treated for gender dysphoria with puberty-blocking drugs went on to take cross-sex hormones to alter their sex characteristics permanently. The study also showed that children’s bone density and normal growth flatlined with puberty blockers as compared to their peers, and participants reported no improvement in their psychological well-being. The findings support a growing body of evidence showing the harm and irreparable damage of experimental medical treatments for children with gender dysphoria.
The U.K. High Court issued a landmark ruling on Dec. 1 requiring doctors to seek a court order before administering puberty-blocking drugs to children under 16. The plaintiff, Keira Bell, 23, argued the Tavistock Center did not adequately warn her as a teenager of the irreversible damages of such hormone treatment. The judges said doctors failed to provide adequate scientific basis for the treatment or explain their long-term effects on children. They also chastised the center for its lack of record-keeping, including tracking the proportion of children who go on to take cross-sex hormones.
The Tavistock Center published its study the day after the High Court’s ruling. The study began in 2011 and followed 44 children ages 12 to 15 for three years. Youth participants were urged to store their gametes before taking blockers, and female participants reported they did not menstruate while taking the drugs, indicating the practitioners anticipated and observed effects on the patients’ reproductive development.
Endocrinologist Michael Laidlaw from Rocklin, Calif., noted that children in the study who took puberty blockers exhibited significantly less bone density than their peers. That causes stunted height and puts them at greater risk for osteoporosis and fractures in adulthood, he said.
Given the study’s findings that nearly all children who take puberty blockers end up on cross-sex hormones, it is clear that the drugs do more than give children time to pause to consider their gender identity.
Cross-sex hormones carry side effects including sterility, increased risk of cardiovascular disease, and increased risk of breast and uterus cancers, and other harmful psychoactive effects of high-dose hormones such as mood swings and even psychosis, Laidlaw said.
“Kids are not able to understand the long-term implications of this radical treatment to the human body,” he said. “They cannot provide meaningful informed consent.”
Puberty blockers were first used to treat gender dysphoria at a Dutch gender clinic in the 1990s. The so-called “Dutch protocol,” published in the European Journal of Endocrinology in 2006, tracked 55 young people with gender dysphoria who were treated with puberty blockers, put on cross-sex hormones at age 16, and underwent sex-change surgeries after they turned 18. The study had no control group to compare the results with. Still, it concluded that the treatments succeeded based on psychological functioning at least one year after surgery.
At UCSF, Rosenthal began prescribing puberty blockers to gender-dysphoric youth in 2009 based on the Dutch protocol, which also informed the Endocrine Society’s clinical guidelines for treating transgender youth.
On Dec. 15, the Endocrine Society posted a position statement on transgender health. It said medical intervention for gender-dysphoric youth, including puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and “medically indicated surgery,” was “effective, relatively safe (when appropriately monitored) … and has been established as the standard care.”
Laidlaw has called the Endocrine Society’s position “highly deceptive.” Most gender-dysphoric children experience other psychological or familial problems or pre-existing trauma or autism, he said. “These kids, given time and compassionate care, should be able to become comfortable in their bodies without the harmful interventions of hormones and surgeries.”
reading that - it seems the majority of people who take puberty blockers continue with their new gender? So you're saying that, in the vast majority of cases, puberty blockers are the right decision? Good news!
Oh, and whilst re-started puberty may lead to a puberty-lite, it does restart. But actual puberty, if not paused, is irreversible.
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The Lib Dem motto has always been "Neither them, nor those, but somewhere in the middle".
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When the LDs get into coalition govt, which seems to be the fantasy of many on here, the natural conclusion is that women’s spaces will be filled with penises.
Vote Tory to stop this sort of thing, if you care about it obviously.
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Barney has never used his penis to fill any woman's space.
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Not for a while tbf
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HEH @ Jelly
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Heh @ Jelly
As for the policy, given that its consistent with what objective medical science tells us I should hope that would be any rational and fair-minded person's position.
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"given that its consistent with what objective medical science tells us"
Didn't know gender studies/ sociology departments were treated as "objective medical science" now.
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Lol, moron
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/
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If you are sporting a cock and balls, you are bloke.
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Let's please not confuse sex with gender, as the relevant effin Act successfully managed to do.
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From the NHS link:
"Most treatments offered at this stage are psychological rather than medical. This is because in many cases gender variant behaviour or feelings disappear as children reach puberty"
Wasn't someone firing shots at JK Rowling in the other thread for suggesting that there was a mental aspect to this issue?
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"given that its consistent with what objective medical science tells us"
saying this over and over again doesn’t make it any less untrue. if we indulge you for a minute and pretend it’s true - until the 1980s objective medical science told us that homosexuality was a mental disorder - so your make believe world wouldn’t be the slam dunk you fantasise about. medical science is not immune from ideology, hysteria, and magical thinking.
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hi actus 👋
yes gender dysphoria is generally considered a mental disorder by the medical community
it is a completely normal thing! it can be treated by transitioning (socially or medically), it’s no more unusual that adhd or autism or anxiety
trans people, if properly identified, can live completely normal lives (and kick ass while doing so!)
jkr was talking about the scottish government’s gender recognition process and saying that “trans activists” were “pushing” to “depathologise” being trans, and argue that it’s not a mental illness but as normal as being gay (which of course is true)
from context it read to me as though jkr disagreed with this view, which is why i brought it up
in fairness another poster (hobbes i think) disagreed and said jkr was just making an uncontroversial comment about nicola sturgeons position
i don’t think she was, but very few people seemed to pick up on her quote so i dropped it
did you read it? what did you think she was trying to say with that paragraph?
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I’m in favour of this
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What happened to that lady who used to argue with feelingchill on the trans threads?
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They no longer identify as a roffer.
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Suspect Rof’s loss has been twitter’s gain.
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Anna got banned unfortunately.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/05/24/calvin-klein-trans-model-advertise-bra-beard-bappie-kortram/
Lunatics/asylums clearly now running ad agencies.
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Barney24 May 23 11:50
When the LDs get into coalition govt, which seems to be the fantasy of many on here, the natural conclusion is that women’s spaces will be filled with penises.
Vote Tory to stop this sort of thing, if you care about it obviously.
________________________________________________________________________
it's kinda weird, cause the traditional Tory line has always been "stop women only spaces cause you are bullying men and young boys are getting confused and not manly enough!"
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Pretty much word for word what bigoted morons still say about homosexuals, which you ironically even also refer to in your post. Humans are obviously evolved to reproduce via male/female sex, yet here are all these gay people, which non-bigots now accept as a perfectly normal human variation, even though we have no real idea what makes a small minority of brains diametrically reverse and sexually and romanticaly desire the same rather than a different gender to them. Yet in the same sentence you can't wrap your head around the possibility, that the /medical community have long been satisfied is the case, that another similar human variation, although even more rare, is that some brains identify as the opposite gender to their biological sex, or to neither gender. Instead you think you know better about these things than the actual objective medical specalists in this field.
It's such a stupid position it would be laughable if it didn't result in such cruelty towards an already vulnerable minority.
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trans people, if properly identified, can live completely normal lives
Can they have kids?
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yes bentines, though of course equating “having kids” as “normal” is one of the ways the narrative is framed by the fundamentalist right, so i’d avoid that
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That's a shame. Why did they ban her? Chill's posts feel a bit hollow without her there to reply to them.
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It was a genuine question.
I'd have thought that having/retaining the ability to reproduce, should they decide to in the future, wasn't particularly abnormal.
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Having kids is now right wing fundamentalist?!
fertility is a massive issue for transitioners because puberty blockers utterly fvck with it - both ways.
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for gods sake - puberty blockers don’t have any effect on fertility, this place has been overrun with anti-trans propaganda
even rumpole’s transgendertrend links (which i assume will be along shortly) show their side effects are things like “weight gain” “headaches” and “irritability”
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Medical fact isn’t anti-trans propaganda
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Chill, where do you get this stuff, the 1930s?
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show their side effects are things like “weight gain” “headaches” and “irritability”
you sure you aren’t thinking of lager?
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well the medical fact on is that puberty blockers have no effect on fertility
even hormone treatments (which is what i think you’re confusing them for) can be reversed - here:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1182636
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weak transfuse
nobody is “sterilizing” anyone - there are trans men who have become pregnant - it’s been widely shared!
of course some trans people who surgically transition will not be able to have children naturally, but they can still have children! they can adopt or use a surrogate - in fact all the same ways gay couples can have children are open to them!
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Re the OP, fine, then I will have Ed Davey's, pickled in a jar on the shelf.
Hope I've understood this correctly, it's a bit of a minefield.
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"widely shared" =/= medical evidence.
Puberty blockers cause significant issues for children. They are validly used for young children who suffer very early puberty with lower reported adverse effect. They can be hugely damaging for teenagers however who have reached puberty at the appropriate stage. That could be fine, if the child was able to consent and would not "desist" once they were slightly older, however the evidence is showing that the majority to desist, but those who have taken puberty blockers have not developed normally as a result and can face lifelong issues.
You seem to think that puberty blockers and hormones are like placebos - they are not. You should look further than a few trans friends or tiktok.
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thirdfuse, if they “desist” the effects reverse themselves and there is no impact on fertility
the concern over puberty blockers is that they “put” trans children on a “pathway” to hormone treatment, which can impact on longer term fertility
this is what all the “85%-90% of children on puberty blockers go on to have further treatment” stats are thrown around, and the arguments about “affirmative treatment”
now obviously i don’t find this surprising because kids who are trans tend to continue to be trans, and “desistance” rates are relatively low (though not unheard of!)
but puberty blockers do not cause fertility problems as on said in her post above - that is misinformation designed to scare parents away from treatment for their trans children
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depressing that i can make your argument better than you can tbh
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HI Chill - you are incorrect that the effects reverse themselves. Your info is out of date.
And whilst you say kids who are trans tend to continue to be trans.. and desistance rates are relatively low, this is also incorrect. It sounds like something straight out of activist propaganda and is the opposite of what is happening now.
I can see you are trying very hard to be awesome and to "be kind" but you are not being kind to kids.
The pathway isnt "treatment".
I'm beginning to think you are a dangerous individual trying to look cheerful as if everything will be awesome for everyone if all kids who say they are trans are put on the pathway. You're missing out so much of the picture. Helping kids and realising many teenagers in that situation will desist is not transphobic.
Thats because you keep spouting nonsense not backed up by medical evidence. Very easy to do.
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Teaching children they can change sex isn’t kind. They can’t change sex. Teaching them they can is the pathway for a lot of future pain rather than helping them embrace the sex they are.
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See in my mind a transgender man who still has female reproductive organs isn't a man as they haven't fully transitioned. Similarly a trans woman who still has a cock and balls isn't a woman.
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jesus this is how i have to spend my morning now?
updated april 25 2023:
https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#short-answer
the relevant study is page 139 - it’s a long doc so i’ll paste it below and bold the relevant bit:
https://epath.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Boof-of-abstracts-EPATH2019.pdf
that’s the uk study, but just in case you don’t like the focus on detransition there (though it also picked up regret, which is a proxy for desistance), here’s the international data:
https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b#:~:text=Dutch%20research%20from%20several%20years,puberty%20blockers%20and%20hormone%20treatment.
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thirdfuse i don’t know if you’re new or an old poster with a new name, but i promise you i am and have always been #teamdata - i have done all the research on this which is why i am confident in my position and more than ever convinced that the “gender critical” position is based on misinformation and anti-trans propaganda
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Sadly I dont have time to provide the info, if I can later I will share links.
On puberty blockers - a googled article isnt up to much
On detrans - articles are signficantly out of date, things have evolved very rapidly. Now significant rates of detrans
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and fwiw if you want to show me competing data, please show me the studies and i’ll have a look at them
but like we found with covid i imagine it will be difficult to go against the vast vast majority of medical science based on a conspiracy theory
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Also, I'm an old poster from the early days of ROF on the old hamster though I have been largely absent here for years.
You really have't done good research here in relation to children. It is a hot topic and children are being used as guinea pigs. Sad times.
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well it’s a quote from a paediatric doctor in new york
look - puberty blockers have been used for decades - do you think doctors have been aware the effects are irreversible but have been lying to patients and the public about it? do you think the patients realise they’re irreversible but have not said anything to anyone? do you think they’ve only recently become irreversible for some reason?
the global meta study is from 2021 ffs
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last point for now - "vast vast majority of medical science" - there's research but gender theory is exactly that - not fact. We have studies and theory, reflecting pain and heartache. Important to keep that in mind especially as children are involved.
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oh and puberty blockers, for decades have not been used they way they are now. 2021 is not bang up to date on this. So not helpful.
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Just seen this now Chill.
I read the paragraph and thought, at best, it was an unfortunate choice of words by JK. I'm not sure what benefit there is to the discussion by using the phrase "as normal as being gay".
We've been shown throughout history that categorising things as normal, and other things presumably therefore as not normal, has rarely helped the health and happiness of those who are "not normal" and are already feeling excluded as is.
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oh it’s just risky
hi risky - sorry your posting style was different and you don’t normally engage with me on these threads!
i assume you were missing me 😉
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Didn't the NHS link in this thread say the opposite about children changing their feelings on being trans as they go through puberty?
I thought it said many trans feelings do change as children reach puberty
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Of course it does. Children live in fantasy worlds until at least age 7/8 where they are mermaids and superheroes and the opposite sex to their birth sex.
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i get that actus and i can give her the benefit of the doubt on it because i know she normally doesn’t say that kind of thing so openly
but it was unfortunate because - as you’ll have seen from rumpole’s posts - there is a concerted movement openly engineered by the far right to create division between trans people and the broader lgbtq community, so setting up a conflict between “trans activists” who say it’s like being gay and not “mentally ill” will be lapped up by her supporters
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big “it’s called the theory of evolution” energy here
the studies (including all those i’ve linked) are in fact science
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Wow hot take here for the day is having kids is right wing fundamentalism (but not if you’re gay or trans then jts just normal) and evolution is a theory
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And a theory just like gender theory !
I feel so enlightened.
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And that the legitimate opinions expressed by a group of people are in fact are just a far right conspiracy. I love the saying on the one hand that you can't group people together at the same time as saying that a whole group are wrong.
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Every day is a school day Sails. So blessed to learn from Brother Chill
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what are you all talking about now?
prioritising having children as “normal” (especially at the expense of people’s mental or physical health) is of course one of the ways the fundamentalist right exercises control over people
its the entire point of the emphasis on the “traditional family”
i’m surprised i even have to point this out
have either of you heard of the roman catholic church for example?
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Your posts chill :
of course some trans people who surgically transition will not be able to have children naturally, but they can still have children! they can adopt or use a surrogate - in fact all the same ways gay couples can have children are open to them!
but
Hereronormative couples choosing to have kids - agent of right wing fundamentalism
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"helping them embrace the sex they are"
sounds like conversion therapy
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erm no what i said is
heteronormative couples can choose to have kids all they want!
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I’d prefer to encourage my kids to be happy in their own skin and sex than make a world for them where they are a different sex and then they wake up hating their bodies for performing the normal functions of life and puberty
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Having kids is a normal function of life. Not having kids is also a normal function of life.
neither is an agent for right wing fundamentalism
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third fuse blowing away the guff.
warren - I’d be delighted if you wanted to engage with what I said instead of hysterically ranting about something else.
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i don’t think you’ve understood my point ob, but never mind!
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wading through the fudge, cant, dissembling, misdirection, ideological fantasy facts, slime, misrepresentation, etc. etc. is very tedious chill- you don’t post to be “understood” your oeuvre is a strange and structurally unsafe castle built on the sand of your sect’s fantasies.
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i’ve linked to all the evidence bullace
thirdfuse has just said “nope!”
your view is based on very old, very dangerous conspiracy theories designed to install fear and distrust in doctors, psychologists and of course gender non-conforming people
but keep going - one day you might wake up
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I lolled at the misdirection of “X doesn’t affect their ability to have kids” and then later “of course they can have kids, they can adopt”
you should be a lawyer Chill!
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do fvck off chill - your faux reasonable and pragmatic mask slipped ages ago. you don’t engage in good faith and your cult of zealous ideologues are putting children on a path to misery. enough.
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some people are trans bullace
get over it
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does a slogan of child like vacuousness win the argument for you chill?
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hotnow:
1) puberty blockers don’t affect fertility, which was ob’s point
2) even hormone treatment can be reversed as the nbc link to the boston study shows
3) of course adopting kids is having kids, don’t be a dick - adoptive parents are parents
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better than the frothing hatred you’re providing bullace!
again - get over it
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Not sure that's a given, tbh.
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I’m sure both sides can find articles from scientific reviews to support their view. The whole point is it appears currently to be unclear and therefore it is much better to play it safe if so.
”Transgender individuals who undergo gender-affirming medical or surgical therapies are at risk for infertility. Suppression of puberty with gonadotropin-releasing hormone agonist analogs (GnRHa) in the pediatric transgender patient can pause the maturation of germ cells, and thus, affect fertility potential.”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6626312/
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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00139-5/fulltext
lancet editorial may 2021 (my emphasis):
the lancet will now be accused of being “captured” by an insidious conspiracy of powerful “gender theory” activists, who work in the shadows to abuse children
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I hate your blind arrogance and the risk to vulnerable people that it presents - I don’t (and you can’t point to anything suggesting that I do) hate any person because of what they are or what they believe. you are wielding classic tool of ideologues. your slogan of childlike vacuousness reminds me of another group of blind, magical thinking zealots (evangelical christians in this case) screeching “you called our children monkeys!” at Richard Dawkins while hounding him away from their church - he was a bit baffled initially but realised what they meant was that accepting evolutionary theory meant he was calling their children monkeys…. rather than the God’s creation.
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There is also nearly a complete lack of RCT-based evidence for puberty blockers & their long-term effects, as I'm sure chill knows.
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They do of course affect fertility whilst you are taking them
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yes jim - they pause puberty but the effects are reversible (hence “pause”)
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correct actus - that’s the purpose of them!
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I’d prefer to encourage my kids to be happy in their own skin and sex than make a world for them where they are a different sex and then they wake up hating their bodies for performing the normal functions of life and puberty
um I think the point is that most people who are considering transitioning are past that point and already “wake up hating their bodies for performing the normal functions of life and puberty”
pretty much no-one transitions on a whim (despite what a lot of the ring wing media suggests)
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Followed by:
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I’ve understood perfectly, I don’t agree with you.
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What I like most about this discussion is how often people are ready to change their minds.
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Like their genders, eh, viper?
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yes tsb (i’ll link a discussion of the issues with that in a moment) but not with fertility - there’s some bone density issues that have been reported
this is not difficult - when people stop puberty blockers they go through puberty! they’ve been used for decades!!
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Nice 😏
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here - long read but pretty comprehensive on the effects and unknowns re: puberty blockers
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7430465/
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tsb - they don’t affect it long term (ob said they “utterly fvck with it”, which is a scaremongering anti-trans healthcare lie) because they are completely reversible
quite obviously because they are called “puberty blockers” their purpose is to delay puberty
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i’ve spent more than enough time on this for one day, it’s clear some people see the science in front of them and still want to deny reality
👋 all
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Please don’t go chill, this needs to tun
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Needs Anna back. People just lack the commitment and drive she had to argue this out for 500+ posts.
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having done this with anna many times georgey she wouldn’t have argued the point for 500+ posts (she couldn’t, it’s unarguable)
she would have pivoted quickly to keira bell and the cass report (none of which say anything about puberty blockers and fertility, but throw up a lot of dust about hormone treatments), then escalated to trans healthcare being “a medical scandal more destructive than thalidomide”, then started accusing me personally of wanting to abuse children and throwing around how much of a misogynist I am
one of the most impressive things is how we’ve mostly managed to stay on track with only bullace getting personally abusive
a better thread i think (even if you don’t agree with me)
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Anna would be perfectly capable of arguing for 500+ posts on this. It's easy when all you're doing is changing a few words from what you've said a thousand times before.
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Chill you are gr8 at dissembling and misleading I want you on my PR team if I ever need one
”having children” of course as a phrasal verb has two meanings. In the context of fertility, as you well know, it means to gestate and to give birth to a child. As in “I had my first child in 2011” . Of course, not in the present context of fertility, it might also mean ‘I am the legal parent of a child’.
Clearly you love using ambiguity and wordplay to misdirect and to create an alternative reality in which to dwell and I applaud you for your efforts
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"even rumpole’s transgendertrend links (which i assume will be along shortly) show their side effects are things like “weight gain” “headaches” and “irritability”
^^^more lies from you Chill
A post of mine from Feb 2022:
"These developments (pushing kids down a path of irreversible treatments) are led by for-profit medical companies, that profit from kids being subject to irreversible treatments, that require lifelong surgical and pharmaceutical interventions
Any intervention but talk therapy to explore is causing irreversible damage to children (surgical, pharmaceutical), who will have to live the rest of their lives with developmental damage to their bodies
We are not being permitted to do the necessary scientific research, to inform decisions that are being made to subject children to lifelong medical interventions with dire consequences for their bodies
Do you know the sorts of problems children given gonadotropine releasing hormone analogs to interrupt their puberty face, Jack? Do you know that such interventions were first used as end-stage prostate cancer drugs, and to chemically castrate sex offenders in Broadmoor?
Do you know why puberty matters biologically to whole healthy bodily development, and why pharmaceutical attempts to interrupt it has dire consequences for the entire body? Do you know the possible dangers in giving off-label medications experimentally to anyone, let alone kids in the peak of development? Does that strike you as in accordance with our ethical undertakings?
Some of the adverse health events reported in children given such gonadotropine releasing hormone analogs:
Damage to the hypothalamus, pituatory gland and gonads, bone fractures, blood disorders, height and body mass decreases, permanent loss of bone mineral density, early menopause, fatigue, chronic pain, mood swings, hot flashes, infertility, seizures, brittle bones, depression, anxiety, osteoporosis, decreased IQ, and impairment to cognitive functions such as linguistic ability, short-term memory capacity, mental flexibility, and inhibitory control
https://www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers/
https://calgaryjournal.ca/2019/06/04/endometriosis-and-lupron/
https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-prob…"
A post of mine from Mar 2022 summarising bits of the Css Review’s Interim Report:
Full report here:
https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/
"1.25.There has not been routine and consistent data collection within GIDS, which means it is not possible to accurately track the outcomes and pathways that children and young people take through the service.
1.26.Internationally as well as nationally, longer-term follow-up data on children and young people who have been seen by gender identity services is limited, including for those who have received physical interventions; who were transferred to adult services and/or accessed private services; or who desisted, experienced regret or detransitioned.
1.27.There has been research on the short-term mental health outcomes and physical side effects of puberty blockers for this cohort, but very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes.
2.18.The disagreement and polarisation is heightened when potentially irreversible treatments are given to children and young people, when the evidence base underlying the treatments is inconclusive, and when there is uncertainty about whether, for any particular child or young person, medical intervention is the best way of resolving gender-related distress.
2.19.As with many other contemporary polarised disagreements, the situation is exacerbated when there is no space to have open, non-judgemental discussions about these differing perspectives. A key aim of this review process will be to encourage such discussions in a safe and respectful manner so that progress can be made in finding solutions.
3.10.In the last few years, there has been a significant change in the numbers and case-mix of children and young people being referred to GIDS.29 From a baseline of approximately 50 referrals per annum in 2009, there was a steep increase from 2014-15, and at the time of the CQC inspection of the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust in October 2020 there were 2,500 children and young people being referred per annum, 4,600 children and young people on the waiting list, and a waiting time of over two years to first appointment. This has severely impacted on the capacity of the existing service to manage referrals in the safe and responsive way that they aspire to and has led to considerable distress for those on the waiting list.
3.11.This increase in referrals has been accompanied by a change in the case-mix from predominantly birth-registered males presenting with gender incongruence from an early age, to predominantly birth-registered females presenting with later onset of reported gender incongruence in early teen years. In addition, approximately one third of children and young people referred to GIDS have autism or other types of neurodiversity. There is also an over-representation percentage wise (compared to the national percentage) of looked after children.
3.12.In 2019, GIDS reported that about 200 children and young people from a referral base of 2,500 were referred on to the endocrine pathway. There is no published data on how the other children and young people from this referral baseline were managed, for example if: their gender dysphoria was resolved; they were still being assessed or receiving ongoing psychological support and input; they were not eligible for puberty blockers due to age; they were referred to endocrine services at a later stage; they were transferred to adult services; or they accessed private services.
3.22. Regardless of the nature of the assessment process, some children and young people will remain fluid in their gender identity up to early to mid-20s, so there is a limit as to how much certainty one can achieve in late teens. This is a risk that needs to be understood during the shared decision making process with the young person.
3.23. It is also important to note that any data that are available do not relate to the current predominant cohort of later-presenting birth-registered female teenagers. This is because the rapid increase in this subgroup only began from around 2014-15. Since young people may not reach a settled gender expression until their mid-20s, it is too early to assess the longer-term outcomes of this group.
4.21. GPs have expressed concern about being pressurised to prescribe puberty blockers or feminising/masculinising hormones after these have been initiated by private providers
4.5. We have heard that some young people learn through peers and social media what they should and should not say to therapy staff in order to access hormone treatment; for example, that they are advised not to admit to previous abuse or trauma, or uncertainty about their sexual orientation. We have also heard that many of those seeking NHS support identify as non-binary, gender non-conforming, or gender fluid. We understand that some young people who identify as non-binary feel their needs are not met by clinical services unless they give a binary narrative about their gender preferences."
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https://wng.org/roundups/study-effects-of-puberty-blockers-can-last-a-lifetime-1617220389
Proponents of putting gender-confused children on puberty-blocking drugs have long said there’s no harm in pressing pause on their physical development while they take time to consider their identity. “It’s completely reversible,” said Stephen Rosenthal, a pediatric endocrinologist at the University of California, San Francisco, in a 2016 cover story for UCSF magazine. “You take them off it, and they resume puberty.”
But a long-term study by the United Kingdom’s leading facility for treating gender-dysphoric children found otherwise. Contrary to common beliefs about puberty-blocking drugs, the majority of children who take them do not resume puberty.
In a Dec. 2 preprint of the study from the Tavistock and Portman National Health Service Foundation Trust, all but one child treated for gender dysphoria with puberty-blocking drugs went on to take cross-sex hormones to alter their sex characteristics permanently. The study also showed that children’s bone density and normal growth flatlined with puberty blockers as compared to their peers, and participants reported no improvement in their psychological well-being. The findings support a growing body of evidence showing the harm and irreparable damage of experimental medical treatments for children with gender dysphoria.
The U.K. High Court issued a landmark ruling on Dec. 1 requiring doctors to seek a court order before administering puberty-blocking drugs to children under 16. The plaintiff, Keira Bell, 23, argued the Tavistock Center did not adequately warn her as a teenager of the irreversible damages of such hormone treatment. The judges said doctors failed to provide adequate scientific basis for the treatment or explain their long-term effects on children. They also chastised the center for its lack of record-keeping, including tracking the proportion of children who go on to take cross-sex hormones.
The Tavistock Center published its study the day after the High Court’s ruling. The study began in 2011 and followed 44 children ages 12 to 15 for three years. Youth participants were urged to store their gametes before taking blockers, and female participants reported they did not menstruate while taking the drugs, indicating the practitioners anticipated and observed effects on the patients’ reproductive development.
Endocrinologist Michael Laidlaw from Rocklin, Calif., noted that children in the study who took puberty blockers exhibited significantly less bone density than their peers. That causes stunted height and puts them at greater risk for osteoporosis and fractures in adulthood, he said.
Given the study’s findings that nearly all children who take puberty blockers end up on cross-sex hormones, it is clear that the drugs do more than give children time to pause to consider their gender identity.
Cross-sex hormones carry side effects including sterility, increased risk of cardiovascular disease, and increased risk of breast and uterus cancers, and other harmful psychoactive effects of high-dose hormones such as mood swings and even psychosis, Laidlaw said.
“Kids are not able to understand the long-term implications of this radical treatment to the human body,” he said. “They cannot provide meaningful informed consent.”
Puberty blockers were first used to treat gender dysphoria at a Dutch gender clinic in the 1990s. The so-called “Dutch protocol,” published in the European Journal of Endocrinology in 2006, tracked 55 young people with gender dysphoria who were treated with puberty blockers, put on cross-sex hormones at age 16, and underwent sex-change surgeries after they turned 18. The study had no control group to compare the results with. Still, it concluded that the treatments succeeded based on psychological functioning at least one year after surgery.
At UCSF, Rosenthal began prescribing puberty blockers to gender-dysphoric youth in 2009 based on the Dutch protocol, which also informed the Endocrine Society’s clinical guidelines for treating transgender youth.
On Dec. 15, the Endocrine Society posted a position statement on transgender health. It said medical intervention for gender-dysphoric youth, including puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and “medically indicated surgery,” was “effective, relatively safe (when appropriately monitored) … and has been established as the standard care.”
Laidlaw has called the Endocrine Society’s position “highly deceptive.” Most gender-dysphoric children experience other psychological or familial problems or pre-existing trauma or autism, he said. “These kids, given time and compassionate care, should be able to become comfortable in their bodies without the harmful interventions of hormones and surgeries.”
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reading that - it seems the majority of people who take puberty blockers continue with their new gender? So you're saying that, in the vast majority of cases, puberty blockers are the right decision? Good news!
Oh, and whilst re-started puberty may lead to a puberty-lite, it does restart. But actual puberty, if not paused, is irreversible.
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