...and you were relatively happy where you were, what was the kicker that made you take the leap? Been approached by a headhunter and am weighing up options. Want to mine the collective RoF brain.
The kicker tbh - and it's a looooonnnngg time ago - was that given how self-satisfied and minted the partners were where I was, it must be worth having a crack somewhere they behaved as if born to it and generally looked after themselves even better. Because that was a sign of being run well. And most law firms are run like stately homes.
Well, this would be a leap up in seniority, which would be helpful. Think the firm in question has been slightly stuck in old ways due to (a now retired) MP and the new one is very keen to update and spend to pull it forward in various ways, which is positive...
The partners where I am seem to be doing ok, tbf. It annoys me when they keep decent work to themselves which is a particular bugbear at the moment (and I suspect it is the same all over the place).
Generally it has either been the promise of more interesting work and promotion or more money or just a job that I thought would generally look good on the CV later.
This would ramp it up, it's more of a move into a more semi-managerial role with a possibility of partnership dangled in front of me, should I want it. It's a big decision. The money would obviously be extremely helpful. Just need to do some digging re the culture &c
Cookie - you can to a point take a clients with my line of work, but definitely have contacts that I will bring with me. Think there'll be an emphasis on BD, but isn't there always?!
A modernising senior man means a massive bun fight over the change in cultures, you’ll be seen as the boss’s man and maybe get it in the neck accordingly. That can be a great opportunity if you cba putting up with all the crap that will come with it. How hard do you want to work and how much extra are they offering?
Ha, believe me Struts, that is very much not a motivating factor for me. It would be more money, more responsibility with an exposure to a broader range of more technical work. If that gets thrown at me later then fine, but I am not chasing it mindfully, you know?
Zero - I think there is a general acceptance that things need to change so I am not sure I would be zoned in on with regards to being anyone's minion, tbh.
Quite a bit more money and I was a bit bored. Although things have worked out pretty well where I am I still sometimes wonder if it was the right call.
If you are a quiet sort of person (which when at work, and therefore (mostly!) sober, I am) and you are not brilliant at greasy pole climbing/politics it can be good to move as you get more senior I think cos you get to arrive as a 'senior person' and expectations are set accordingly. It can be harder to demonstrate you are making a step up internally particularly at law firms where titles and 'promotions' (apart from to partner) tend to be largely meaningless.
If culture will be a big thing for you (I imagine it is and should be) then my advice would be to be careful of what you read.
firstly WTF is culture and why do people think they can describe it in a few paragraphs. It is a collection of people and strong characters can have a big impact.
Its also INCREDIBLY subjective so whatever you read/find is the view of someone else - and I am sure you have friends who have friends you would not befriend and have friends that your friends would not want to befriend.
so essentially I think it is a case of meeting as many people as you can for as long as possible and trying as hard as you can to work out who you need to be assessing. Offical Heirarchy can be less meaningful if certain characters push things around so for me it is about working out:
Which relationships are going to be important for you to succeed in your role. and then assessing the people in those posts and how you get on with them. Dont let other nice people who are notionally involved in the hiring process muddy your view of the "culture". There may well be a larger firm culture that is fantastic but it is the micro-culture that you will be placed into that really matters. Converseley a firm with a SHIT Macro culture might have opportunities within it that are very good due to a fantastic microculture in one dept.
Client asked me to go work for them and after 5 years I thought the change would do me good. I may end up back at my old place but for now I’m glad I made the move.
I was sat in trap 3 of the shitter reading the Gazette thinking how awful my job as a 3 year PQE blozzer was, and how grim it was being bullied by every single one of the partners in the department (which was the norm), saw an in-house job near my house at a massive company and applied thinking there was no chance at all. 13 years and 7 jobs later still here.
In order 1. leaving a toxic law firm with bullying and harassment as the norm 2. more money 3. more time away from work
Oddly I know someone at your shop, Dusters. She doesn't like it there particularly (for which I feel guilty as she was our trainee and I got her the introduction there through my contacts).
Loved working at previous firm but we took over another firm and I was given the job of getting their partners to work in our way. They pushed back the whole time frustrating me every step of the way complaining about me, failing to do the things they'd promised to do and... the firm backed them over me. When I left I was branded 'a trouble maker'.
When I have changed jobs it has always been because I was unhappy with something where I was and have started looking around. When I’ve been in a job that is going well I have never been tempted to take approaches from agents seriously.
Imo there is a huge amount to be said for having colleagues who I work well with and like, and a firm “culture” where it is reasonably laid back, and bullying and general nastiness is at a minimum, with people being generally happy. I also wouldnt take a job now where the commute was horrendous.
Its about knowing what is best for you and balancing the various factors (quality of work, colleagues, salary, commute, typical hours, prospects, etc).
I would never say not to take a chance on new job if it feels right and excites you, but if you are happy where you are it might be worth analysing why that is as well as looking at the new opportunity.
This is the problem. A casual acceptance that bullying is inevitable and even a small amount of it should be tolerated. It's b0llocks and I don't see why anyone should put up with it
Thanks Kimmy. It's an odd one. There is a lovely culture here but I just wonder if there's too many at the top of the pyramid in my particular dept and what that really means for me long term. I don't know.
Raddy - who did you used to post as? It's a shame she doesn't like it. I wonder if that's down to department or colleagues where she is. We have so many departments and the management is always going to be inconsistent in that sort of set up.
Stardust - I have also found that employers (as well as agents, of course) can oversell a role - they have a vacancy they want filled and if a great person rocks into view, they want to nab them!
Could you have a chat with someone where you are about your prospects? I am sure you can frame it appropriately and maybe something positive will come out of that discussion.
Also - how long have you been at your current place? Are you feeling that a change would be refreshing?
They absolutely can, it's trying to see your way through the hyperbole. And also the notion that someone will frame their management style as "laid back" when they might not be. HA!
I have been here nearly 6 years and I have had promotions in that time. I have had feedback from HR recently that I am well liked and well thought of at the upper echelons (always nice to hear) but I would probably have to have a direct convo with my boss about where they see me going. There's very distinct pathways to promotion so it's not an arbitrary process and they do support and encourage people to apply and go for it, which is great. But I suspect I am underpaid for my level and I would quite like to make a leap towards a more leadership style position. But in my office, the department is starting to get very top heavy, which isn't necessarily the healthiest thing. I think that bothers me.
Maybe ask your boss for a coffee off-site and have a candid chat with him/her about your prospects?
Also get as much info as you can from the agent about the new job. No harm in going to see the new ER and see what you think. The problem might sort itself out either way...
When I had a similar choice re a "maybe" I made a list of the things that would make it a definite yes and told the new firm. The list included salaried partnership with an incentive package re billing targets.
Amazingly they said yes.
Don't ask don't get. Remember they approached you.
If you do go for it definitely arrange to have a coffee or drink with some of the other people at your level as that tells you a lot. In a City firm the fact they've been allowed out at 6pm for drinks with a potential recruit is a good sign and out of work people do also let their guard down a little and give a frank view of life at the firm. At my current place we arranged drinks for two new recruits with the whole department so they could get an idea of what they were letting themselves in for.
At my second place, being as lovely as I am, I was always the junior that was put forward to meet potential new juniors for that very coffee. To charm and regale.
They stopped all that when the three potential recruits I met all declined their offers the day after meeting me and hearing my honest appraisal.
Actually looking back they probably declined because I'm a whopper
It's generally offered after you've had a couple of interviews at the point where they are starting to expect a decision. Think I've been lucky that generally the places where I've got good vibes from the people who interviewed me have turned out to be good places to work.
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The kicker tbh - and it's a looooonnnngg time ago - was that given how self-satisfied and minted the partners were where I was, it must be worth having a crack somewhere they behaved as if born to it and generally looked after themselves even better. Because that was a sign of being run well. And most law firms are run like stately homes.
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Well, this would be a leap up in seniority, which would be helpful. Think the firm in question has been slightly stuck in old ways due to (a now retired) MP and the new one is very keen to update and spend to pull it forward in various ways, which is positive...
The partners where I am seem to be doing ok, tbf. It annoys me when they keep decent work to themselves which is a particular bugbear at the moment (and I suspect it is the same all over the place).
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Generally it has either been the promise of more interesting work and promotion or more money or just a job that I thought would generally look good on the CV later.
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Same all over dusty. Moving gives you the chance to ramp up your practice if you cba, twas ever thus.
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This would ramp it up, it's more of a move into a more semi-managerial role with a possibility of partnership dangled in front of me, should I want it. It's a big decision. The money would obviously be extremely helpful. Just need to do some digging re the culture &c
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Moving also gives you the chance to take clients and certainly contacts with you, and you need that to build a case.
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What’s the firm?
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What’s the firm?
I don't work in London, that's all I'll say!
Cookie - you can to a point take a clients with my line of work, but definitely have contacts that I will bring with me. Think there'll be an emphasis on BD, but isn't there always?!
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A modernising senior man means a massive bun fight over the change in cultures, you’ll be seen as the boss’s man and maybe get it in the neck accordingly. That can be a great opportunity if you cba putting up with all the crap that will come with it. How hard do you want to work and how much extra are they offering?
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Beware the 'promise' of partnership
In 2 or 3 years, all being well, you would definitely be very much in a good position for it.
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Subject to the prevailing economic climate
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Ha, believe me Struts, that is very much not a motivating factor for me. It would be more money, more responsibility with an exposure to a broader range of more technical work. If that gets thrown at me later then fine, but I am not chasing it mindfully, you know?
Zero - I think there is a general acceptance that things need to change so I am not sure I would be zoned in on with regards to being anyone's minion, tbh.
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$$$
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To progress when I knew there was no chance where I was.
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I thin it was the wheelbarrow full of cash that the prospective new boss wheeled into the interview, if I'm truly honest with myself.
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Quite a bit more money and I was a bit bored. Although things have worked out pretty well where I am I still sometimes wonder if it was the right call.
If you are a quiet sort of person (which when at work, and therefore (mostly!) sober, I am) and you are not brilliant at greasy pole climbing/politics it can be good to move as you get more senior I think cos you get to arrive as a 'senior person' and expectations are set accordingly. It can be harder to demonstrate you are making a step up internally particularly at law firms where titles and 'promotions' (apart from to partner) tend to be largely meaningless.
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If culture will be a big thing for you (I imagine it is and should be) then my advice would be to be careful of what you read.
firstly WTF is culture and why do people think they can describe it in a few paragraphs. It is a collection of people and strong characters can have a big impact.
Its also INCREDIBLY subjective so whatever you read/find is the view of someone else - and I am sure you have friends who have friends you would not befriend and have friends that your friends would not want to befriend.
so essentially I think it is a case of meeting as many people as you can for as long as possible and trying as hard as you can to work out who you need to be assessing. Offical Heirarchy can be less meaningful if certain characters push things around so for me it is about working out:
Which relationships are going to be important for you to succeed in your role. and then assessing the people in those posts and how you get on with them. Dont let other nice people who are notionally involved in the hiring process muddy your view of the "culture". There may well be a larger firm culture that is fantastic but it is the micro-culture that you will be placed into that really matters. Converseley a firm with a SHIT Macro culture might have opportunities within it that are very good due to a fantastic microculture in one dept.
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1. More time with family 2. more money 3. trying something completely different which interested me more were biggest drivers.
Being honest I'd probably rank 3 and 1 in joint first . 2 is important and facilitates 1. But isn't the be all.
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Client asked me to go work for them and after 5 years I thought the change would do me good. I may end up back at my old place but for now I’m glad I made the move.
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I was sat in trap 3 of the shitter reading the Gazette thinking how awful my job as a 3 year PQE blozzer was, and how grim it was being bullied by every single one of the partners in the department (which was the norm), saw an in-house job near my house at a massive company and applied thinking there was no chance at all. 13 years and 7 jobs later still here.
In order 1. leaving a toxic law firm with bullying and harassment as the norm 2. more money 3. more time away from work
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Bullying and Harassment also in law firms.....
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Oddly I know someone at your shop, Dusters. She doesn't like it there particularly (for which I feel guilty as she was our trainee and I got her the introduction there through my contacts).
Loved working at previous firm but we took over another firm and I was given the job of getting their partners to work in our way. They pushed back the whole time frustrating me every step of the way complaining about me, failing to do the things they'd promised to do and... the firm backed them over me. When I left I was branded 'a trouble maker'.
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When I have changed jobs it has always been because I was unhappy with something where I was and have started looking around. When I’ve been in a job that is going well I have never been tempted to take approaches from agents seriously.
Imo there is a huge amount to be said for having colleagues who I work well with and like, and a firm “culture” where it is reasonably laid back, and bullying and general nastiness is at a minimum, with people being generally happy. I also wouldnt take a job now where the commute was horrendous.
Its about knowing what is best for you and balancing the various factors (quality of work, colleagues, salary, commute, typical hours, prospects, etc).
I would never say not to take a chance on new job if it feels right and excites you, but if you are happy where you are it might be worth analysing why that is as well as looking at the new opportunity.
Good luck - its excellent to have choices!
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"Bullying at a minimum"
This is the problem. A casual acceptance that bullying is inevitable and even a small amount of it should be tolerated. It's b0llocks and I don't see why anyone should put up with it
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I dont think it should be tolerated at all. Its existence is not always obvious, and sadly it has been a reality at firms I have worked in.
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Thanks Kimmy. It's an odd one. There is a lovely culture here but I just wonder if there's too many at the top of the pyramid in my particular dept and what that really means for me long term. I don't know.
Raddy - who did you used to post as? It's a shame she doesn't like it. I wonder if that's down to department or colleagues where she is. We have so many departments and the management is always going to be inconsistent in that sort of set up.
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Stardust - I have also found that employers (as well as agents, of course) can oversell a role - they have a vacancy they want filled and if a great person rocks into view, they want to nab them!
Could you have a chat with someone where you are about your prospects? I am sure you can frame it appropriately and maybe something positive will come out of that discussion.
Also - how long have you been at your current place? Are you feeling that a change would be refreshing?
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They absolutely can, it's trying to see your way through the hyperbole. And also the notion that someone will frame their management style as "laid back" when they might not be. HA!
I have been here nearly 6 years and I have had promotions in that time. I have had feedback from HR recently that I am well liked and well thought of at the upper echelons (always nice to hear) but I would probably have to have a direct convo with my boss about where they see me going. There's very distinct pathways to promotion so it's not an arbitrary process and they do support and encourage people to apply and go for it, which is great. But I suspect I am underpaid for my level and I would quite like to make a leap towards a more leadership style position. But in my office, the department is starting to get very top heavy, which isn't necessarily the healthiest thing. I think that bothers me.
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the piles and piles of cash.
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I imagine it helps fund the brood, Clubbers ;)
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this was pre-brood.
I've been here ten years. TEN YEARS
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Yes and look how well it's doing. *slaps Clubbers on back and hands him a cigar*
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Maybe ask your boss for a coffee off-site and have a candid chat with him/her about your prospects?
Also get as much info as you can from the agent about the new job. No harm in going to see the new ER and see what you think. The problem might sort itself out either way...
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Yhdustymail.
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Hi Dusty
When I had a similar choice re a "maybe" I made a list of the things that would make it a definite yes and told the new firm. The list included salaried partnership with an incentive package re billing targets.
Amazingly they said yes.
Don't ask don't get. Remember they approached you.
Good luck
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If you do go for it definitely arrange to have a coffee or drink with some of the other people at your level as that tells you a lot. In a City firm the fact they've been allowed out at 6pm for drinks with a potential recruit is a good sign and out of work people do also let their guard down a little and give a frank view of life at the firm. At my current place we arranged drinks for two new recruits with the whole department so they could get an idea of what they were letting themselves in for.
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At my second place, being as lovely as I am, I was always the junior that was put forward to meet potential new juniors for that very coffee. To charm and regale.
They stopped all that when the three potential recruits I met all declined their offers the day after meeting me and hearing my honest appraisal.
Actually looking back they probably declined because I'm a whopper
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Bam, that made me actually lol.
Asti - thank you for your wisdom, as ever. I am surprised you didn't ask for an additional awesome suit bonus.
I am not sure how I would get them to let me have coffee with some of the others in the department at this stage, so I will play that one by ear.
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It's generally offered after you've had a couple of interviews at the point where they are starting to expect a decision. Think I've been lucky that generally the places where I've got good vibes from the people who interviewed me have turned out to be good places to work.
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