I see the gld are advertising for g7 roles in employment dept either in London or Leeds. Has anyone / does anyone work there and would you recommend it ?
The job is shit, the money is shit, the offices are grey and the people are grey. Last time I was in one of their places they had removed the water coolers to save money - make of that what you will.
It really is the arse end of the legal profession, along with the CPS. If you want to work for a Government department, try HMRC or FCA - both will give you training and experience that could be worth decent money in PP and the latter actually pay a half-decent wage (by London standards).
The GLD job will have a pay band, probably £50k-£60k but all new starters will find themselves at the bottom. Every couple of years you get an increment, so it takes about 8 years to get to the top of the pay band. Promotion beyond Level 7 is extremely difficult.
Like most public sector law jobs, GLD is generally not well-regarded and I think spending any length of time there would probably be career limiting.
My view of government legal, from close personal experience, is that it's a bit of a let down unless you are somewhere sexy. For me, that's pretty much limited to the FCO - from which you can apply for jobs with e.g. the UK's mission to the UN.
90% of GLD is a bit like a paired-down, budget treadmill.
I'll have to give it some thought. Wish I was from Leeds as 48,500 is probably an OK salary up there and they say you can work from their offices there..
Also the application procedure is an absolute pain - it will take you hours to complete all the "competency" crap. I have applied for a couple of GLD jobs over the years (HMRC and MoJ) and had interviews each time - each an awful experience; totally negative and uncommercial. To this day I still have no idea what they were looking for. Not someone from PP, I suspect, and they had to interview me because I met the competency criteria.
Hi there, to add a different perspective, I've worked in government in a grade 7 legal role and enjoyed it. I came from private practice and started at the top of the band.
Hours weren't 11-4 (obviously) but better than PP - enabled a life outside work.
True that pay progression is limited and promotion to Grade 6 can take years.
It wasn't in GLD, though, and GLD is big with a lot of variation between departments - see if you can speak to someone actually doing that role at the moment, to see what it's like.
Competency based applications is a technique that is different to how private practice works. I don't particularly like it (having been interviewed and done interviews with it), but most PP lawyers should be able to figure out the system and put their best foot forward.
Periclean - long time lurker but quite new poster, sure the helpfulness will wear off.
Ballache - it was the top of the Grade 7 band used in my organisation, which was about £60k but I don't have the exact figure as I was part time (90% over 4 days), it had a London weighting and I think different orgs set their own bands (hence why HMRC might pay more).
I think they justified paying the higher amount as I had a fair bit of experience and was already taking a big pay cut to join. I don't know if GLD would be interested in those arguments, but you could ask!
the thing about the civil service, I guess, is that the reaistic lifetime maximum you can expect to earn is about £150k and that's for real winners (yes occasionally there are folk in the media who are on £250k but they are not standard)
so if you seriously thought you could make millions as a partner (and didn't care about the lifestyle cost of getting there) it wouldn't be the option for you
the vast majority of solicitors in PP earn under £100k and have to do very boring work
There are “assistant legal adviser” roles being advertised at the FCO right now. Could it be worth applying for this without a relevant LLM? Or little chance based on general legal experience only?
Once I have got the kids off the books a year or so faffing around doing nothing in the GLD might be amusing. I have no doubt there are some good people in there, but my experience of government workers of all nationalities has not been good.
What ideally I want to avoid is be stuck in a dead end job being plonked on the same salary for the next 20 years. Hard to know what to do for the best..
don't really know what an employment role would be like
the good things about that sort of job in general, imo, would be getting to advise government ministers and other senior "faces", getting involved in really complex, unusual, important stuff
the kind of work very few PP sols have access to
but if you were just advising HR on how to run performance management it might be a bit depressing
Tbh i was more irked by the commonly espoused view that you can live like a king in the north on tuppence hapenny. It’s not true.
Re the actual figures, most roffers are lawyers in their late 30s and above, (so likely 10 yrs+PQE). £50K is rubbish for that, you can earn 50% more at that level of PQE fairly easily as a bog standard inhouse legal counsel, and north of that if you end up managing people.
I agree most lawyers in the north are probably tun strugglas though.
Hi again, from the job advert (the downloadable version) it says they have Zoom sessions next week that you can sign up to, to ask questions. They also have an email address you can contact.
Also:
- looks like it is £50k (in London), not negotiable, but no harm in asking.
- at 13 pqe sounds like Grade 6 would be a more appropriate level (and would match your salary expectations better). Maybe ask them if any Grade 6 jobs likely to be coming up? Or might they offer at Grade 6 from this recruitment round if they find people with that level of experience?
FTAOD if you have a calling for the stuff in clergs’ 11.35 then fine, but I get the feeling OP just fancies an easier job earning cash where he thinks it will stretch further than it will (Leeds).
Jesus, I work for the government and even I earn more than the 50k they are offering.
If you want really daft quasi gov job on good pay look at the nato civilian legal roles. There are people working 9-5 who are taking home 8-10k Euro a month tax free, plus all their other allowances and benefits.
Those average salaries are fvcking nuts. I was looking at a lot of jobs recently in my bit of the world and not one was lower than £65K, and they specifically wanted someone at 5-8PQE, admittedly in-house. Where are all these people earning £40K in the north as a lawyer?
Clergz they do actually pay what it says on there as I know people who are getting that an more at that grade. If you look at them on the surface you might think it is a military organisation but there is also the diplomatic side an a whole bunch of supporting agencies doing things like procurement or IT provision. They even have tax lawyers and were advertising someone with vat experience for the luxembourg office not so long ago.
Factor in the pension. Could easily add an extra £10-20k's worth to salary compared to what you'd be looking at to achieve the same with money purchase.
Clergs, aren’t all employment roles pretty much as you described whether PP, IH or government? I never really found employment exciting it felt pretty boring. Can’t imagine doing it in the government.
Kimmy when I trained in the North I certainly knew people in high street practice that were earning in the 20s and would have quite an impact on the average.
I'm not sure I'll bother with it now. Its not as if I can do some work shadowing there to see if its as kittens as most people make out- sounds too much of a punt.
Ballache, if you have an email address i may be able to put you in contact with someone I know that could give you some insight. I don't have a nonny one i am afraid.
I’m a private practice lawyer at a “top 20 firm”. I’ve applied to GLD a few times and never got anywhere. Not sure why I even bothered given how shite the pay is. It was just a chance for shite lawyers to say to me, “You’re too shite even for us.”
It’s been two years, you are now 15 PQE, and clearly you don’t seem to mind a massive paycut and a potentially braindead job. Maybe you should go for it!
I know one person very closely who went to the GLD at Grade 7, the experience was exactly as EP described it and she left as soon as she could (less than a year later) to join another government department in a non-legal role.
As said above Ballache, if you have an anonymous email address, put it here and i will message. I may know someone who will could give you some guidance on general civil service shite and what its like as well as the competency based application process.
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Anyone ? The money doesn't look good at all at 50k but maybe could be negotiated up a bit..
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The job is shit, the money is shit, the offices are grey and the people are grey. Last time I was in one of their places they had removed the water coolers to save money - make of that what you will.
It really is the arse end of the legal profession, along with the CPS. If you want to work for a Government department, try HMRC or FCA - both will give you training and experience that could be worth decent money in PP and the latter actually pay a half-decent wage (by London standards).
The GLD job will have a pay band, probably £50k-£60k but all new starters will find themselves at the bottom. Every couple of years you get an increment, so it takes about 8 years to get to the top of the pay band. Promotion beyond Level 7 is extremely difficult.
Like most public sector law jobs, GLD is generally not well-regarded and I think spending any length of time there would probably be career limiting.
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My view of government legal, from close personal experience, is that it's a bit of a let down unless you are somewhere sexy. For me, that's pretty much limited to the FCO - from which you can apply for jobs with e.g. the UK's mission to the UN.
90% of GLD is a bit like a paired-down, budget treadmill.
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Oh dear that doesn't sound too good.
I'll have to give it some thought. Wish I was from Leeds as 48,500 is probably an OK salary up there and they say you can work from their offices there..
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£50k is not an “alright” salary (by lawyers terms) anywhere. Hth
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Also the application procedure is an absolute pain - it will take you hours to complete all the "competency" crap. I have applied for a couple of GLD jobs over the years (HMRC and MoJ) and had interviews each time - each an awful experience; totally negative and uncommercial. To this day I still have no idea what they were looking for. Not someone from PP, I suspect, and they had to interview me because I met the competency criteria.
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Has anyone actually worked there ? Is it as bad as everthing that has been said above in reality ?
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I agree 50k is gash but I could maybe make it work if I could negotiate it up to somewhere closer to 60k.
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ballache - see above. You'll start at the bottom of the salary band.
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:-/
https://jobs.lawgazette.co.uk/job/719106/g7-lawyer-or-legal-officer
The advert doesn't have a salary band in it just a figure (which I hoped would be subject to a bit of discussion).
I don't think I can make it work for 50k particularly if it looks like you'll be stuck on it in perpetuity.
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On the plus side hours will be approx 11-4
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Can't see anyone living like a king on £50k in Leeds or anywhere else really.
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Hi there, to add a different perspective, I've worked in government in a grade 7 legal role and enjoyed it. I came from private practice and started at the top of the band.
Hours weren't 11-4 (obviously) but better than PP - enabled a life outside work.
True that pay progression is limited and promotion to Grade 6 can take years.
It wasn't in GLD, though, and GLD is big with a lot of variation between departments - see if you can speak to someone actually doing that role at the moment, to see what it's like.
Competency based applications is a technique that is different to how private practice works. I don't particularly like it (having been interviewed and done interviews with it), but most PP lawyers should be able to figure out the system and put their best foot forward.
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Mole5, that's thoughtful and well informed. Are you sure you're in the right place?
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Moley if you don't want to answer no problem but how much more than 50k were you on? And did they make things difficult to negotiate?
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The GLD are not negotiate. They have very strict pay scales.
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I really don't think 50k is a bad salary (this is not my salary but anyone who says it is "gash" is talking out their anus)
also remember it comes with a defined benefit pension and seriously good holidays
is that really worse than, say, 70k for an eager senior associate role in a provincial firm?
maybe you'd expect to earn more than that in PP in Leeds but I HIGHLY doubt it
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Periclean - long time lurker but quite new poster, sure the helpfulness will wear off.
Ballache - it was the top of the Grade 7 band used in my organisation, which was about £60k but I don't have the exact figure as I was part time (90% over 4 days), it had a London weighting and I think different orgs set their own bands (hence why HMRC might pay more).
I think they justified paying the higher amount as I had a fair bit of experience and was already taking a big pay cut to join. I don't know if GLD would be interested in those arguments, but you could ask!
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the thing about the civil service, I guess, is that the reaistic lifetime maximum you can expect to earn is about £150k and that's for real winners (yes occasionally there are folk in the media who are on £250k but they are not standard)
so if you seriously thought you could make millions as a partner (and didn't care about the lifestyle cost of getting there) it wouldn't be the option for you
the vast majority of solicitors in PP earn under £100k and have to do very boring work
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although I do have a pal in GLD MOJ and it sounds AWFUL
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What clergs said.
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There are “assistant legal adviser” roles being advertised at the FCO right now. Could it be worth applying for this without a relevant LLM? Or little chance based on general legal experience only?
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amazing that they say a postgrad OR five years experience in international law
that's fooking mental - an LLM is not the same as five years experience!
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"With around 12,000 Solicitors and Barristers".
Wow - that is half the size of the Navy !!!
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Rubbish. It's a perfectly good salary for a junior solicitor. Isn't Grade 7 quite experienced though?
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I earned nearly 50k over twenty years ago.
And I was not overpaid as I was billing more than 4 times my salary.
Are things really that bad for the youngsters in the UK these days?
I am way out of touch.
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I looked at some stats for Scottish sols and I am pretty sure the average for a partner came in at around 50k
I know bla bla Scotland but actually if you take out London we arent hugely different
I can't tell what people who claim it is a bad salary think is a reasonable one
the thing about grade 7 is that it does stretch from NQ to possibly 20 years Q since there's no lockstep
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I have 13 years pqe :-/
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well, where could you get better cash and would you like it as much or more, is the way to think about it
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Once I have got the kids off the books a year or so faffing around doing nothing in the GLD might be amusing. I have no doubt there are some good people in there, but my experience of government workers of all nationalities has not been good.
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What ideally I want to avoid is be stuck in a dead end job being plonked on the same salary for the next 20 years. Hard to know what to do for the best..
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well,if you define success by salary definitely don't do civil service
if you don't get promoted (lots of good people never do) you won't get more than inflation increments
they got rid of pay progression a couple of years ago
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don't really know what an employment role would be like
the good things about that sort of job in general, imo, would be getting to advise government ministers and other senior "faces", getting involved in really complex, unusual, important stuff
the kind of work very few PP sols have access to
but if you were just advising HR on how to run performance management it might be a bit depressing
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Tbh i was more irked by the commonly espoused view that you can live like a king in the north on tuppence hapenny. It’s not true.
Re the actual figures, most roffers are lawyers in their late 30s and above, (so likely 10 yrs+PQE). £50K is rubbish for that, you can earn 50% more at that level of PQE fairly easily as a bog standard inhouse legal counsel, and north of that if you end up managing people.
I agree most lawyers in the north are probably tun strugglas though.
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Hi again, from the job advert (the downloadable version) it says they have Zoom sessions next week that you can sign up to, to ask questions. They also have an email address you can contact.
Also:
- looks like it is £50k (in London), not negotiable, but no harm in asking.
- at 13 pqe sounds like Grade 6 would be a more appropriate level (and would match your salary expectations better). Maybe ask them if any Grade 6 jobs likely to be coming up? Or might they offer at Grade 6 from this recruitment round if they find people with that level of experience?
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am reminded of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs-UEqJ85KE
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FTAOD if you have a calling for the stuff in clergs’ 11.35 then fine, but I get the feeling OP just fancies an easier job earning cash where he thinks it will stretch further than it will (Leeds).
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from the law society
Qualified solicitors
In 2018 the average salary (median gross) for solicitors working full-time in private practice was £62,000 each year.
Average annual salaries by region
Greater London – £88,000
South of England – £56,000
Midlands and Wales – £46,000
North of England – £43,000
Average annual salaries by seniority
Equity partner – £130,000
Salaried partner – £75,000
Associate solicitor – £65,000
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Jesus, I work for the government and even I earn more than the 50k they are offering.
If you want really daft quasi gov job on good pay look at the nato civilian legal roles. There are people working 9-5 who are taking home 8-10k Euro a month tax free, plus all their other allowances and benefits.
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omg look at this job! https://www.nato.int/structur/recruit/documents/Director,%20NATO%20Information%20Office%20Moscow;%20Public%20Diplomacy%20Division%20(PDD).pdf
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Those average salaries are fvcking nuts. I was looking at a lot of jobs recently in my bit of the world and not one was lower than £65K, and they specifically wanted someone at 5-8PQE, admittedly in-house. Where are all these people earning £40K in the north as a lawyer?
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are you sure that's what they would really pay (as opposed to what rec cons advertise to lure in applicants)?
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Clergz they do actually pay what it says on there as I know people who are getting that an more at that grade. If you look at them on the surface you might think it is a military organisation but there is also the diplomatic side an a whole bunch of supporting agencies doing things like procurement or IT provision. They even have tax lawyers and were advertising someone with vat experience for the luxembourg office not so long ago.
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curses!
mind u, lockdown in luxembourg...
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I had a look at it and then realised I don't really know much about VAT other than that I pay it.
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As a comparator, the A4 job that clergz linked is probably comparable in level with the grade 7 the op is referring to or maybe one below a grade 7.
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I have been thinking about oecd for a while but nato looks well more fun
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that said, think am too old to start again socially
am in a hunkering down and waiting for old age mode
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Factor in the pension. Could easily add an extra £10-20k's worth to salary compared to what you'd be looking at to achieve the same with money purchase.
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Clergs, aren’t all employment roles pretty much as you described whether PP, IH or government? I never really found employment exciting it felt pretty boring. Can’t imagine doing it in the government.
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they might include all high st solicitors as well as big firms
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Kimmy when I trained in the North I certainly knew people in high street practice that were earning in the 20s and would have quite an impact on the average.
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Well ill dial into the zoom presentation and see what is said there but I can't say I've been sold it by you guys so far...
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I had the misfortune to have them on the other side of a pro bono case I did.
Without doubt the most incompetent, useless, stupid, ignorant shower of shit I have ever come across.
For any lawyer to actively want to work there, I’d have to question their sanity.
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Was it the bit about spending four years working on the merger of a pharmaceutical company with a
Nother pharmaceutical company
That made you so sullen, wars?
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Don't be a lawyer!
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You must be mixing me up with someone else, Clergs - I’ve never done that
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I'm not sure I'll bother with it now. Its not as if I can do some work shadowing there to see if its as kittens as most people make out- sounds too much of a punt.
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The gld are still advertising these jobs and I am still not enjoying my time in private practice all that much.
There have been a multitude of articles on rof and elsewhere about the gld. Some comments said it was a great place to work and others less so.
All said the money was shyte.
All the alarm bells are ringing to say don't do it but can it really be that bad? Really?
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it’s been 2 years and you still evidently want to do it so just do it
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Ballache, if you have an email address i may be able to put you in contact with someone I know that could give you some insight. I don't have a nonny one i am afraid.
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If you are interested in it, give it a go.
If you don't like it, you can always find another move.
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You might struggle to get into general gld at that level (absurd but true). Look at more senior external ads (especially in the agencies).
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These jobs are for retired lawyers, wives of rich people and inheritors.
If you are one of these - go for it - could be fun.
If not - dont be an idiot.
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I’m a private practice lawyer at a “top 20 firm”. I’ve applied to GLD a few times and never got anywhere. Not sure why I even bothered given how shite the pay is. It was just a chance for shite lawyers to say to me, “You’re too shite even for us.”
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Could be fun.
But might also be really shit.
Decisions decisions.
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fook it i think I might go for it.
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It’s been two years, you are now 15 PQE, and clearly you don’t seem to mind a massive paycut and a potentially braindead job. Maybe you should go for it!
I know one person very closely who went to the GLD at Grade 7, the experience was exactly as EP described it and she left as soon as she could (less than a year later) to join another government department in a non-legal role.
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Does anyone on here work 4 gld? Is it genuinely a braindead job? I was full of a decent Shiraz last night and convinced I would go for it
After coffee this morning not so sure now.
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As said above Ballache, if you have an anonymous email address, put it here and i will message. I may know someone who will could give you some guidance on general civil service shite and what its like as well as the competency based application process.
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Thanks bailey. I might take you up on that but would need to cre8 an anon ballache Addy.
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Seriously, just throw in your application.
You probably won't get anywhere but at least you'll scratch that itch.
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Heh what a depressing thread.
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