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Gaza war v Ukraine War

Judging by casualty numbers the former seems more intense by a considerable margin.   While Israel is justified in fighting this war in the way Russia is not it seems to be far more ruthless in Russia in terms of killing large numbers of people, children in particular or is just lack of means for Russia?

Judging by casualty numbers the former seems more intense by a considerable margin.   While Israel is justified in fighting this war in the way Russia is not it seems to be far more ruthless in Russia in terms of killing large numbers of people, children in particular or is just lack of means for Russia?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME. 

1. Hamas casualty numbers are complete bullshit. Ukrainian civilian casualty figures are trustworthy. you simply cannot use "casualty figures" to compare the two because the first set of figures is made up.

2. How on God's good earth can you possibly possibly think that Israel is more ruthless than Russia - Mariupol? Bakhmut? Bucha? 

 

Imagine if Hamas has kidnapped 100,000 Israeli children, deported them to Iran and were raising them as Iranians, is that better?

Ukrainian authorities have verified the identities of over 19,000 abducted children abducted by the Russian state after their parents had been arrested by Russian occupation authorities or killed in the invasion, or after becoming separated from their parents in an active war zone.

Children have also been abducted from Ukrainian state institutions in occupied areas, and through children's "summer camps" on Russian territory. The abducted children have been subject to Russification; raising children of war in a foreign nation and culture may constitute an act of genocide if intended to erase their national identity.

Russian authorities have claimed that over 700,000 Ukrainian children have been "evacuated" by mid-2023, and Ukraine's ombudsman on children's rights believes that the actual number of abducted children may be in the hundreds of thousands. A charitable organisation - Save Ukraine - facilitates the repatriation and family reunification of abducted Ukrainian children.

I'm assuming you mean civilian casualties rather than overall casualties...

Three points:

(1) The Gaza-produced figures include Hamas dead (and don't distinguish between militants and civilians).  

(2) The IDF has made 8,000+ bombing sorties last time I saw the numbers being given.  The casualty rates are incredibly low in that context (and should underscore the efforts the IDF has gone to minimise civilian casualties - this isn't indiscriminate 'carpet bombing').  

(3) Goes without saying Russia isn't generally fighting from (and Ukraine isn't attacking) populous civilian districts so the risk of civilian collateral damage is that much lower.  Different story in Gaza.

seems 10k civilians have died in Ukraine and that is generally accepted.   Military deaths are contested but seem to be around 70,000 for each side.

This war has been going on for 2 weeks and already we have 1000s of civilians dead.   I am sure Hamas exaggerate but we are still talking civilian death on a whole different level to Ukraine.   Of course circumstances are different.

I mean when you order people to leave half the country for their own safety because you are about to bomb the shit out of it it is hard to say Hamas are making the civilian deaths up...

Probably much lower than casualties in the siege of Mariupol, up to 600 died in the theatre bombing there in one airstrike.  But of course its early days, give the IDF some time to get going.

Seriously though, 400k+ civilians in a little area like that being bombed to that degree?  5000 deaths is pretty low really  

I mean when you order people to leave half the country for their own safety because you are about to bomb the shit out of it it is hard to say Hamas are making the civilian deaths up...

And when Hamas order civilians to stay put, detonate car bombs in refugee columns, its easy to assume that they would also make up casualties.

On the Ukraine children thing, its worth remembering that a lot of people did genuinely need to be evacuated from front-line areas for their safety, Mainland Russia is safer and probably much better equipped to handle them than trying to care for them in occupied Ukraine, and also a load of them are actually ethnically and socially Russians:

Ethnic Russians form the largest minority, accounting for 39% and 38.2% of the two oblasts respectively. In the present day, the Donbas is a predominately Russophone region. According to the 2001 census, Russian is the main language of 74.9% of residents in Donetsk Oblast and 68.8% in Luhansk Oblast. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbas

 

On the Ukraine children thing, its worth remembering that a lot of people did genuinely need to be evacuated from front-line areas for their safety, Mainland Russia is safer and probably much better equipped to handle them than trying to care for them in occupied Ukraine, and also a load of them are actually ethnically and socially Russians:

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

I am not sure where the idea that Hamas is likely to be over stating civilian casualties is coming from. Given the scale of the destruction in Gaza it will be nothing short of miraculous if they prove to be an overstatement. 

According to to the IDF there were 320 strikes in the last 24 hours alone and I heard a figure of 8000 strikes since the start. There is simply no way that the emergency services in Gaza are anywhere close to keeping up with being able to search for survivors with that sort of scale of attack. Many, many thousands are injured and medical care is now at an extremely basic level. Survival rates are not going to be good. 

If they don't get fresh water in there soon it is all but inevitable that dysentery, maybe even cholera is going to take hold. This is a city of children. Thirsty children will drink dirty water and then they will die. 

Apparently Hamas is both overstating the casualty numbers and also the low casualty numbers are evidence of how careful the IDF is being

Shows you how dastardly Hamas and how virtuous the IDF are. Really makes it easy to select a "team".

I am not sure where the idea that Hamas is likely to be over stating civilian casualties is coming from.

Erm, could it be because they are compulsive liars, rapists, torturers and murderers, and because the higher the number they claim the more international furore from useful idiots they hope to whip up?

 

 

 

According to to the IDF there were 320 strikes in the last 24 hours alone and I heard a figure of 8000 strikes since the start. There is simply no way that the emergency services in Gaza are anywhere close to keeping up with being able to search for survivors with that sort of scale of attack. Many, many thousands are injured and medical care is now at an extremely basic level. Survival rates are not going to be good. 

If they don't get fresh water in there soon it is all but inevitable that dysentery, maybe even cholera is going to take hold. This is a city of children. Thirsty children will drink dirty water and then they will die. 

All these children could be safe in Egypt....oh wait,  Egypt won't open the border because  Hamas and Islamic Jihad from Gaza would use the cover of refugees to destabilise Egypt and also because the Arab world does not want to solve the Arab-Israeli conflict, because it's a great way of distracting their exploited and mistreated population from their shitty kleptocrat governments.

 

Guy is plainly correct that the body count, especially the civilian bodycount, is racking up much faster in Gaza than it at any point has in Ukraine.

Hamas may be a loathsome organisation but the order of magnitude of civilian casualties it put out is believable. How many people do you think are going to die fgs if you muster relentless bombardment on one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world. LOL @ the world some of you guys seem to live in where the Israelis have peerless intel and are able to pick off Hamas leaders with precision strikes. Nobody can do that fgs, and especially not somewhere like Gaza. Nobody, including Mossad, has any idea what is going on in Gaza.

Guy is plainly correct that the body count, especially the civilian bodycount, is racking up much faster in Gaza than it at any point has in Ukraine.

No, it isn't. Biggest Ukraine casualties in Mariupol, still under Russian control - so no-one will get accurate figures from there, but based on what we do know from the ordnance dropped on it, and the pictures of corpses by the 100s piled in disused supermarkets, the freshly dug graves 1000s died in Mariupol alone. 

Main reason civilian casualties in Gaza are higher than they need be is Hamas preventing evac and Egypt closing border.

Imagine if no-one had taken Ukrainian refugees - how much higher the death toll would have been?

 

Hamas may be a loathsome organisation but the order of magnitude of civilian casualties it put out is believable. 

By reference to what? Most people on this board, looking at the destruction of Ukraine a country with a population circa 20 times greater than Gaza, in which far more buildings  have been destroyed with far more and nastier weapons by an unscrupulous enemy seem to think only 10k civilians died because the morally bankrupt UN said so.

So why would you think that the figures in Gaza in 2 weeks would be broadly equal to 18 months in Ukraine?

 

 

When you read the sort of absolute disingenuous bullsh1t that HD posts you begin to understand why this is so intractable. There is such complete wilful blindness to what is happening. Such a willingness to say black is white and as far as I am aware HD has no direct skin in the game even. 

Gaza is what? Roughly the size of Birmingham and Dudley combined and about 25% more densely populated?  So imagine it is fenced off and the power and water is shut off. 

Now try to think of a way that you can have 8000 large explosions in that area without massive civilian casualties even if the only criteria was actively trying not to kill civilians it couldn't be done. 

 

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