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Controversial opinion m7s

We had an ex colleague of Mrs B over for a casual dinner last night. 

Her relevant to this story  Top Trump stats:

Bonus last year: 7 figs

Education: Cheltenham and Camb

Personality: twot but didn't used to be 

 

We were talking about all this equal pay hooha and she was talking about all her friends who feel so aggrieved by all this and how unfair society is.

M7s you know I'm not a meninist and am obviously in complete agreement with the equal opp stuff however

It's a fooking wind up when people who have had every fooking opportunity in the world talk about how stuff is unfair.  I get that public school females have been held back but fook me have some awareness of the benefits of your life and how they got you a massive advantage. 

Being a povvo and starting work in a posh environment is so fooking disabling. Your confidence is so zapped because you feel you'll suddenly be blind sided by a question about skiing or holidays or just general etiquette.  Going to a residential Oxford interview and having no clue what pimms is when someone asks of you want any. 

 

I know that pushing the female equality movement and class division aren't mutually exclusive but why doesn't the latter get more attention? 

And why the fook are Oxbridge ints still residential? Do then in a community hall in Solihull 

 

Tldr 

Right, but if she's talking about how life is so unfair, on the assumption that she was not saying she thinks life has treated *her* unfairly, she still has a point, right?

She was sayjng that life treated her and her school mates  unfairly

 

I  completely acknowledge that the female fight is great and vital. I also reckon the povvo fight is probably more vital

 

 

I remebr the porter taking me to my Oxford room thing and being like [some really famous dude] used to sleep here and me just being like - I'll probably just sleep on the desk yeah 

Bam - I’m not sure but to seriously try to answer your wuestion

- because it is harder to define class than “being female”

- because generations of women fought like hell to have this recognised as an issue and for whatever reason that hasn’t happened on a class basis yet

- because there are even fewer povvos in positions of power than women so fewer people of influence to do something about it

- because it’s harder to address the root causes of class inequality than sex based inequality* 

remember also that the people who arguably get most fvcked by this are working class women. Double fvcked if they’re also BAME. 

* I don’t believe this given the appalling statistics re women but it’s certainly easier to superficially address some of the gender diversity issues 

Heh @ etiquette. 

 

Remember one of my first interviews was over lunch. When they served coffee the waiter put the cafetiere for the group in front of me. Despite my face telling him not to. 

I think we sat there for 3 minutes until one of the partners realised I didn't know what to do with it and just pushed the plunger down. 

I'd never seen one before. Hadn't a clue. 

Got the job though. 

I actually think the most fooked are working class men (in developed countries)

they are more likely to be homeless, more likely to have drug dependencies that go untreated, more likely to be in prison, more likely to die early

I agree class is harder to define (tho economic disparity less so) but I think poverty is an equaliser.

Bam who was the famous dude??

tell u what tho, as the forties hove into view, I am aware that men will retain their impact on a room (and probably expand it) while mine will shrivel

not that I was ever very impactful to begin with

but there's a natural thrall for professional men in their forties that very few women manage

 

Ronters thanks for that.

 

I mentor a couple of kids every year from my old school. I'always confident that they'll get through uni life but when I think about actual grad interviews my heart goes out to them 

 

The last trainees I encountered a while back from my firm were just from another planet compared to the guys I'm helping 

Bam I was a bit of a povvo, also Welsh and female but didn't find working in a posh environment at all disabling. I don't quite know how I managed that tbh. Perhaps people were nice because they thought I was a novelty. It helped that I went to a posh university so had been exposed to poshness before being thrown into the working environment.

Have you been skiing Bammo?  it is well shyt.  and properly easy.  i'd rather go down digger's hill in my home town on a sledge.  if u r dropping 5k on a family hols go to centre parcs.

Brits seem to love their class divisions. It is up to you guys to break the system. You're the ones hiring now. Don't hire someone like you. Hire someone different who can perhaps challenge you a bit. 

I don't want to be challenged I want people to conjugate to do correctly in professional correspondence

anyway I have worked for the Dutch and they were massively sexist and pretty racist so nard

My Oxford interview wasn't residential and I just turned up had the interview and left.  Probably explains why I didn't get in.

Similarly never had a job interview that involved anything more complex than a meeting room flask of coffee.  How do you manage to squeeze a posh lunch involving a cafetiere into a job interview?

The fun part of skiing is sitting on a sunny terrace half way up a mountain with a drink enjoying the scenery.

Are you scared of sleeping in a bed that someone else has slept in bam? Otherwise not getting the desk thing.

I have contempt for upper middle class shibboleths despite / because of being a member of that class.

who wants to be challenged? I want somebody who knows the difference between pecorino and parmesan and who'll know what i'm talking about when I refer to 'the vineyard'

I think that at a personal individual level bam, the sort of privilege she's benefited from, coupled I'm sure with a lot of hard work, brings massive insecurity which plays out as anger. Plus if she's forrin there'll be alot of residual colonial stuff going on. Is she from rich HK? Am assuming so if Cheltenham. I sort of feel this about Gina Miller, who I think is admirable, but comes from obvs completely different setup than average povvo Brit, male or female, who has massive odds stacked against them from the off simply in terms of numbers, peer pressure to stay shit, and then ofc the social anxiety in spades. Alot of forrins, and I use the term as a poor generalisation realising it sounds offensive obvs, who manage to get here and succeed, do so because they've been raised with a massive amount of confidence and from places where the funnel just doesn't have as many people pressing to get thru. That doesn't mean they don't suffer sexism and from being outsiders, but it's a different experience to being poor and British. But of course when anger is expressed it's addressed at the same inequalities as people suffer here, but it's from a different angle. And on a personal level I think frankly once you've achieved a level of success such as she has she should check her fvkcing privilege, unless she's out fundraising and role model leading twice a week.

Because men get more advantages 

If, "class" being equal, the men are getting more advantages, then she is still correct. She may be privileged due to her class, but that doesn't mean that she and her friends aren't still suffering from sex discrimination.

My chip relates to the constant suggestion that given all of my privileges I'm under achieving because I don't have any desire to be head of something at somewhere amazing.  It's strange feeling the need to apologise for just doing a reasonably decent job at a half way decent firm because apparently I should be doing something more spectacular.

That’s a bit world’s smallest violin as far as chips go tho sails

a bit like when Prince William complains about one day being king 

 

diamond shoes too tight and all that

I think all men go through a version of what sails is describing in their 40s

only thing that varies is what they think they should be doing. They’re invariably not doing it though

doesnt seem to affect women. Presumably because we’ve been socialised out of expecting great things of ourselves in our 30s as the aforementioned sex discrimination starts to kick in 

If, "class" being equal, the men are getting more advantages, then she is still correct. She may be privileged due to her class, but that doesn't mean that she and her friends aren't still suffering from sex discrimination.

But there should be a line somewhere shouldn't there?

I mean okay maybe the Eton boys are making £10m a year rather than her £2m, but there is a point at which the answer is surely STFU about how "hard" you supposedly have it.

I mean not that you shouldn't have a view on sex / class discrimination, but at some point you just reach a point where you can't really claim you're hard done by don't you?  Like, yeah okay you only ticked 8 out of the 10 boxes guaranteed to give you an easy ride in life, but have a little self awareness about those who don't even know what the boxes are.

oh i think my career took a dive when i had a year off to indulge my favourite hobby.  yeah some of those knots i had to tie by the maldives were super tough.  yeah, we got through it by listening to In The Ghetto and drinking sing slings.

 

Bollocks are oxbridge interviews residential as of errr... 25 years ago.  Neither my interview nor my examination were residential and having checked with my mate Ben, his wasn't either.

I know Toronto and I'm doing what I think I should be doing it's just not what other people think I should be doing.  Found out the other day my dad would have had no issue with me joining the Army and should have joined Army Legal Services a decade ago when I seriously considered it.

"I don't want to be challenged"

That's my point exactly. People can whinge all they want but nothing will change it they don't do it themselves or ask questions like why a newly appointed QC can't be proud of their appointment and put it on LinkedIn.

I had two interviews at Cambridge and both involves staying in college the night before. Is that residential or just accommodation? I guess BBC didn't teach me everything.

In the second one (Newnham) I was literally accommodated in someone else's room and she arrived in the middle of the night super confused that I was there. Then I got my period in the bed and didn't know what to do with the bed clothes.

Anyway I did not get into Cambridge the elitist bastards.

But there should be a line somewhere shouldn't there?

I mean okay maybe the Eton boys are making £10m a year rather than her £2m, but there is a point at which the answer is surely STFU about how "hard" you supposedly have it.

I mean not that you shouldn't have a view on sex / class discrimination, but at some point you just reach a point where you can't really claim you're hard done by don't you?  Like, yeah okay you only ticked 8 out of the 10 boxes guaranteed to give you an easy ride in life, but have a little self awareness about those who don't even know what the boxes are.

So where do you draw the line?

If a woman earning 75k a year in London discovers that her equivalent male colleague is earning 90k a year for doing exactly the same job, does she have a right to complain about discrimination or should she consider herself lucky because she's earning nearly three times the average wage and STFU?

What about a 30 year old woman earning 25k a year who gets passed over for promotion in favour of an equivalent male colleague because her boss is betting on her having a baby within the next couple of years? Does she have a right to complain about discrimination or should she STFU and consider herself lucky because there are sweatshop workers in Bangladesh earning $24 a month?

" .... why doesn't the latter get more attention? ... "

Because the prospect of real redistribution between classes is more frightening and has more potential to change the position of the middle classes than redistribution intra-class between men and women. 

or

to put it more simply

there are more poor people than there are women. 

But there should be a line somewhere shouldn't there?

I mean okay maybe the Eton boys are making £10m a year rather than her £2m, but there is a point at which the answer is surely STFU about how "hard" you supposedly have it.

I mean not that you shouldn't have a view on sex / class discrimination, but at some point you just reach a point where you can't really claim you're hard done by don't you?  Like, yeah okay you only ticked 8 out of the 10 boxes guaranteed to give you an easy ride in life, but have a little self awareness about those who don't even know what the boxes are.

So where do you draw the line?

If a woman earning 75k a year in London discovers that her equivalent male colleague is earning 90k a year for doing exactly the same job, does she have a right to complain about discrimination or should she consider herself lucky because she's earning nearly three times the average wage and STFU?

What about a 30 year old woman earning 25k a year who gets passed over for promotion in favour of an equivalent male colleague because her boss is betting on her having a baby within the next couple of years? Does she have a right to complain about discrimination or should she STFU and consider herself lucky because there are sweatshop workers in Bangladesh earning $24 a month?

 

 

 

 

As a discrimination lawyer, I think there isn't any line to be drawn.  If someone is the victim of discrimination they should have redress.  I think the point - that someone earning £2m a year won't get much sympathy with shitmunchers - is a fair one.  But if they should be getting £10m a year but for unlawful discrimination I'm on their side.

Lady P - it depends on the context.  And FAOD I’m not suggesting anyone should be barred from taking action about anything. 

But, assuming that the woman on £75k is from a wealthy background, privately educated etc I don’t think she should be complaining about what a difficult life she has because she can identify a man who earns 20% more than her.

By all means ask your employer / start a grievance about it. 

By all means complain about the generally fvcked up elements of fairness within the UK / world. 

But don’t lose sight of how ridiculously privileged you are in comparison of the vast majority of those surrounding you. 

who wants to be challenged? I want somebody who knows the difference between pecorino and parmesan and who'll know what i'm talking about when I refer to 'the vineyard'

I always struggle when partners with transatlantic accents talk about being off to 'the vineyard'.

Are they at heart a Seppo with their summer home off the Cod or European with their little estate in Tuscany or the South of France that produces a rather agreeable red?

It's a minefield.

But, assuming that the woman on £75k is from a wealthy background, privately educated etc I don’t think she should be complaining about what a difficult life she has because she can identify a man who earns 20% more than her.

I don't think she should necessarily be complaining about having had a difficult life (although coming from a wealthy background and being privately educated doesn't actually mean you can't have had a difficult life for a whole variety of other reasons). But she should absolutely be complaining about getting paid 20% less than her male equivalent for doing the same job. The same principle applies whatever her job and whatever her salary. And that would be the same whether she was from a wealthy background and privately educated or not.

On the class point, it is arguably easier for people who are bright but not from an affluent background to succeed in highly paid professions such as law than in lower paid professions. A candidate who got straight As at their comprehensive in Wales can get onto a vac scheme at Slaughter and May and then ace their training contract more easily than they can get into something like art history or even journalism, where they will be expected to spend years doing unpaid internships and working for peanuts whilst still managing to keep a roof over their head, look presentable and eat. And even getting those unpaid internships may depend on being well connected in the first place.

As a discrimination lawyer, I think there isn't any line to be drawn.  If someone is the victim of discrimination they should have redress.  I think the point - that someone earning £2m a year won't get much sympathy with shitmunchers - is a fair one.  But if they should be getting £10m a year but for unlawful discrimination I'm on their side.

We are in rare agreement. :)

But she should absolutely be complaining about getting paid 20% less than her male equivalent for doing the same job.

But to who? (whom?)

To her employer - hell yeah.

To the disabled bloke who's living on benefits, raising two children after his wife died and just discovered that he's been cut off for failing to attend an assessment?  Maybe not so much.

It is all about context.

On the class point, it is arguably easier for people who are bright but not from an affluent background to succeed in highly paid professions such as law than in lower paid professions.

And I think this undercuts your point a bit.  Just because you can get into the profession and do okay is a massive distance away from saying you aren't discriminated against. Not to mention the massive headwinds the success stories have already been through to get into the right University, realise they should be applying for Vac Schemes, get on with people on the Vac Scheme etc. 

Women arguably find it easier to become solicitors than men (certainly the entrance numbers are in their favour) - but you'd have to be an idiot to suggest they aren't discriminated against.

Seeing the class discrimination can be a bit harder where you aren't on the receiving end particularly as it just doesn't get a lot of attention.

But to who? (whom?)

To her employer - hell yeah.

To the disabled bloke who's living on benefits, raising two children after his wife died and just discovered that he's been cut off for failing to attend an assessment?  Maybe not so much.

It is all about context.

There wouldn't be much point in complaining to the disabled man on benefits since he's not in a position of power or influence.

If she is complaining in the wrong context (i.e. to the disabled person on benefits rather than to her employer) then that suggests a lack of people skills and emotional intelligence which may or not be a contributing factor to why she is paid less than her colleague.

And I think this undercuts your point a bit.  Just because you can get into the profession and do okay is a massive distance away from saying you aren't discriminated against. Not to mention the massive headwinds the success stories have already been through to get into the right University, realise they should be applying for Vac Schemes, get on with people on the Vac Scheme etc. 

I realise that. I'm someone who went to an ordinary state school where the careers advice was pretty non-existent. Despite coming from a stable and reasonably affluent family with two parents who are professionals, I still:

- took the wrong A-level subjects because I was poorly advised;

- applied for the wrong degree course because I was poorly advised; and

- applied to the wrong universities because I didn't even realise that there was a big difference between, say, Nottingham and Nottingham Trent.

The fact that I got a training contract at my first choice firm in the first year I applied was partly down to a university friend who was very on the ball, *had* been well advised, and shared all her knowledge with me.

I actually wanted to try for the bar instead, but I was put off for financial reasons. (Needed someone else to pay for law school.)

If someone in my position didn't get any of the memos about how to get into the right university and the right career, then I'm sure it must be exponentially harder for people who didn't have my advantages. You don't need to convince me about class discrimination; you're preaching to the choir.

But you can care about sex or class or race discrimination at the same time, just as you can care about less severe forms of sex or class or race discrimination whilst still recognising that there are more severe forms which also need to be tackled. The fact that there are places in the world where women are subject to FGM or don't have the right to vote doesn't mean that we should not do anything about the gender pay gap in the UK until all the more severe forms of sex discrimination have been eliminated.

(NB I knew all of those things when I came to apply for university and am a bit peeved my knowledge didn't carry more of a premium tbh!)

(there was that slightly embarrassing Goldman Sachs Wannabe phase)

Heh, no they tried to make to do general studies and I refused.

It's not so much that I picked an embarrassing one, I just wish that I had done at least one science, because picking the combination of subjects I did closed off a lot of potential avenues for me.

would one science be all that useful? surely you'd really need at least two to use them meaningfully? The downfall of the English system. Not that I don't look back on Alevel biology with fondness.

Whereas the Scottish system of highers are an absolute joke . Do you have any idea how many people with highers who get place at leading UK Russell unis for certain courses have to do a foundation year ? Quite a few . A  few of my peers went to Scottish unis and were aghast that the first year was A level standard at best.

do people in Scotland still do 5 plus highers as a minimum ?

Anna our Alma unicoordination lady told me I had no hope of getting in to any of the universities I had on my ucas forms.  i wonder if she just knew I was a blligerent bastard and kicked me in an appropriate manner.  or if she was just a aunt.  

she had a very weird obsession with AJP Taylor.

ps, i swapped chemistry for history last minute for a-levels cos history was much easier and didnt have holiday work.

You're probably right. Two arts and two sciences would have been ideal. The fact is that the teaching at my secondary school was pretty appalling, particularly in the sciences. We didn't do separate sciences, just "double science" and were taught in mixed ability groups all the way through to the end of GCSEs. I literally spent my two GCSE years sitting next to someone who was taking foundation papers when I was taking higher papers. Our classes were complete chaos. There was one memorable incident first thing on a Monday morning when we were supposed to be dissecting kidneys and the kidneys ended up literally being thrown around the room. The teacher ran out midway through the lesson in tears and took the rest of the week off sick. The following week she came back, opened her pencil case and found a rotting kidney which had been hidden in there by someone in my class the week before.

I hated those classes but I still got As in maths and science. I thought they were my weaker subjects compared to all the arts and humanities. But looking back, if I got As in those conditions, I was probably pretty good at those subjects and could easily have done them for A-levels (which I did at a good 6th form college).

My parents encouraged me to do what I enjoyed and was good at. I'm not sure I'd give my own kids the same advice. I'd try to get them to keep their options open.

ha is someone sore Edinburgh didn't want him? I don't know anyone who had to do a foundation year except people who applied for medicine without the science subjects. Intellectually insecure Englishmen are the funniest thing. Not even sexy to make up for it.

wang - a unicoordination lady sounds like she goes around turning everything into unicorns

if you read it too fast

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