Baddiel Programme ‘Jews don’t count’

Excellent. 
 

watch this if you see the issue and want reassurance that some people are calling out the truth

watch this if you don’t see the issue

Will check it out. Honestly been shocked by how much anti-Semitism still exists. The response to the Kanye stuff was a real eye-opener.

Is it on iplayer?

maybe i was a naive kid but I can’t remember anti semitism in 70s and 80s. Rampant racism yes.

I couldn’t tell you if there were any Jewish kids at my school, never entered my childhood. My parents were of an age to partake in casual racism. Such racism was around at school.  I was in a predominantly white rural community went to comprehensive with no recognisable Jewish community at all.

The book is great, haven’t seen the prog yet. Though what the book does skirt around somewhat is the vast, vast amount of anti-semitism that entirely revolves around Muslims and Israel. Whenever Baddiel or another famous Jew decries anti-Semitism, this becomes an excuse for a moronic anti-Semitic attack by someone waving a real or emoji Palestinian flag. It’s sickening but it’s excused by the Left because Palestine is their cause celebre. 

And I know Baddiel entirely disassociates himself with Israel but given most Jews are Zionists of varying degree, it feels as if he is, on this, being a little bit cowardly. 

I don’t disagree wilf but I sense the left is less interested in Palestine these days than of old. Possibly that such space as is available on the left for shouting in is now filled with different ‘causes’. 

It's interesting to read the reactions to Baddiel from white British people.  Those of us who are actually from ethnic minorities have a rather different reaction, well-articulated by Anita Singh in this review in the Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/david-baddiel-jews-dont-count-review-w…

When Baddiel complains about Dawn Butler's speech saying “if you wear a hijab, turban, a cross, if you are black, white, Asian" he's essentially saying that it's always necessary to reference the kippa. (I don't think there are any Jews who are not black, white or Asian, as those terms are set out.) The difficulty with Baddiel's analysis is that the statistics show that Jews are a very small minority in Britain - less than half the number of Sikhs for example. The Irish community in Britain is twice the size of the Jewish community and has suffered generations of discrimination in the UK - far more so during the 20th century than Jewish people, but Irish people did not complain when Labour's 2019 promotional video about supporting minorities did not feature any Irish people. 
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/labour-s-chilling-video-about-suppor…  

There's an element of special pleading - a demand for a disproportionate amount of attention relative to the size of the Jewish community and the discrimination and hostility they face - compared with other ethnic minorities who are larger in size and suffer much worse in this country.  

In the book he expressly makes the point that it’s a polemic, and he realises he may, for want of a better expression, piss people off. Jews have always been accused of special pleading, in itself to even point that out is an anti-Semitic trope, of course. I feel far more kinship with Jews than I do any other minority. And the white majority will always scoff at minorities squabbling, pace his remarks about Dawn Butler. Labour’s record on anti-semitism remains appalling. 

The awful stuff about Jews wanting special treatment is of course a trope and one often read on ROF - so it shows middle class privileged lawyers are prone to such idiotic turns of phrase 

One of the issues - and it's the same as class based discrimination - is that it's often not 'visible' in the same way gender or race is. So the people who should focus on it, don't, because other things are perceived to be more beneficial 

You've never seen a partnership announcement saying '50% are women, 14% ethnic minorities and 2% Jewish'.....

Baddiel looking for special treatment =/= Jewish people looking for special treatment

The only trope here is Davos identifying what one Jewish person does/says with all Jewish people. 

Channel4 having two people - David Baddiel and Sarah Silverman - who both wore blackface in comedy sketches, sitting on a sofa talking to each other about this issue is a bit of a fail for those viewers who do not think like this:

I feel far more kinship with Jews than I do any other minority. And the white majority will always scoff at minorities squabbling

Seems to me that the reason that anti semitism is not taken as seriously in this country as discrimination against other minorities is that rightly or wrongly most people perceive jewish people in this country to be disproportionately successful rather than disproportionately unsuccessful (although admittedly I have no idea if this is true in reality).  The hijacking of the term anti-semitism by the right as a weapon against anybody who does not support Israeli policy 100 per cent also means it is not taken as seriously.

No tropes from me, just responding to what others on this thread had said 

Not sure why Rob the racist cannon thinks otherwise

I wonder?

Do people realise that Jews suffer a far greater disproportionate number of assaults, than any other minority, even now in 2022, in the US and Europe? 

I don’t think you have cars driving through Irish neighbourhoods waving flags and calling for the rape of women. I don’t think you have groups of Irish kids spat at in central London. I don’t believe the Irish were herded by the millions into gas chambers or lined up and shot across Europe. I don’t think the Irish have tropes about controlling the world and murdering children.

As for you Guy, with your ‘rightly or wrongly’ you are literally feeding the discourse. Jews were probably disproportionately successful in Germany pre War but that didn’t stop first  their businesses being boycotted and then their kids being gassed alongside shtetl dwellers from the East. 

I dont deny your last paragraph wilfred.  I am simply setting out an explanation as to why I believe anti semitism is not taken as seriously as other forms of discrimination in the UK.  I am not justifying that.

In the UK , which immigrant groups are not disproportionately more successful than working class white people?  Badiel's fundamental point - that abhorrent behaviour (like the flag waving and calls for rape that Wilfredroston refers to)  shouldn't be over-looked because a group is successful - has to be right. 

Remember also that the Irish are more important than the Scottish and Welsh when it comes to being badly treated.

"There's an element of special pleading - a demand for a disproportionate amount of attention relative to the size of the Jewish community and the discrimination and hostility they face - compared with other ethnic minorities who are larger in size and suffer much worse in this country. "

This made my head swivel.  If you are discriminated against you are only entitled to a proportion of care relative the entire abused group?

That's mad.

Victims have to temper their outrage again other discriminated people?  

Let them all scream louder, let's not temper any voices.

 

Dicers that may or may not be true but if we are defining success as power and money it would be rather odd to compare all of one ethnic group with "working class" white people (who almost by definition are far more likely to have less power and money than average).

I used to think that racism wasn't really a standalone problem - I thought it was nastiness born of (largely economic) insecurity. Give the racist the tools to feel safe and secure and they will abandon their silly purported beliefs.

But rof has been part of my journey to acceptance that this is not the case.

This made my head swivel.  If you are discriminated against you are only entitled to a proportion of care relative the entire abused group?

As clearly set out in my post I was referring to a specific complaint that Baddiel made regarding Dawn Butler's speech saying “if you wear a hijab, turban, a cross, if you are black, white, Asian" and the absence of reference to any Jewish symbol.  Do you think that speech was discriminatory? 

Stephen Fry, who participated in Baddiel's programme, has made a career out of anti-Catholicism and anti-Polonism, referring to Pope John Paul II as "the Pole", declaring that "the Catholic church is a force for evil in the world" (consider how making the same statement about Israel would be perceived) and participating in his own form of historical revisionism for suggesting Polish Catholics were somehow responsible for the Holocaust saying:

Let's face it, there has been a history in Poland of rightwing Catholicism, which has been deeply disturbing for those of us who know a little history, and remember which side of the border Auschwitz was on,

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/oct/10/stephen-fry-poland-holoca…

The problematic nature of Baddiel's programme is illustrated by the fact that he, Silverman and Fry have all targeted other minorities.

The Catholic Church has been a force for evil and people do criticise the Israelis too.  There were also plenty of Poles who were complicit with the Nazis and some have been convicted for their roles in the death camps so he's merely stating fact so not sure how he's revising history.

It's no different to blaming the English for what happened in Ireland despite the fact that the majority of the English had no idea what was going on.

Clergs I think tribalism is an evolved natural instinct by which humans define themselves as us against them, racism (along with much else from the childhood habit of forming cliques to fantatical football support to nationalism) is a consequence of this.   

I'm not convinced any of the comparing achieves much guy. But if you're going to do this stuff, I don't see why you should just compare based on ethnicity.  as a group, I think people who don't go to university suffer more than most from, for example, current employment practices at most big companies. 

i've read plenty of material about public sector jobs that now require a degree (to have your application looked at) which never previously required a degree. It's a form of snobbery.

I take your point about there being class divisions across different ethnicities. But the ratios (if you use obtaining a degree as a rough proxy for class)  will not be uniform!

There were also plenty of Poles who were complicit with the Nazis and some have been convicted for their roles in the death camps

There were not "plenty of Poles" who were complicit with the Nazis. There were a small number who were, just as there was a small number of Jews who were. In both cases the motivations for such collaboration are complex. Closer to home we could look at how the authorities in the Channel Islands dealt with the Nazi occupation.

You're entitled to your opinion that the Catholic Church has been a force for evil, but it's a hostile statement to the 1/12 British people who identify as Catholic, just as a statement that the state of Israel has been a force for evil would be hostile to anyone who identified with Israel. What is not possible is to say that one such statement is okay and the other is not. 

Your comment that "the majority of the English had no idea what was going on" is absurd. Everything was covered widely in the British newspapers. Over 1m Irish people died of famine in the UK from 1844-48 while vast amounts of food were shipped out of Ireland and tariff barriers stopped food from being imported into Ireland. Sir Robert Peel eventually reacted by repealing the corn laws in summer 1846 and his government fell as a result. 

Not sure about the implication that in order to evade criticism of partiality you have to give a precise amount of historically-weighted attention to the plight of each racial, cultural and national minority in your documentary about anti-Semitism

Stephen Fry, who participated in Baddiel's programme, has made a career out of anti-Catholicism and anti-Polonism

WTF?

Only you could find Baddiel's programme 'problematic'. Do I think Butler's speech was anti-Semitic? No, but it clearly showed on what side of the fence the left-wing of the Labour party saw the Jews. You don't think it's a bit odd that she doesn't mention the minority that has suffered disproportionately more than any throughout history, particularly against a background of rising anti-Semitism in 2019?

You know and I know that though not saying anything specifically anti-Semitic, she didn't want to alienate her base by referring to Jews. Because in their mind the Jews are privileged, white colonists and not worthy of the persecution banner.

You're entitled to your opinion that the Catholic Church has been a force for evil, but it's a hostile statement to the 1/12 British people who identify as Catholic, just as a statement that the state of Israel has been a force for evil would be hostile to anyone who identified with Israel. What is not possible is to say that one such statement is okay and the other is not. 

Indeed both statements are fine.

Do you know how many English people read newspapers in the 1840's?  For starters in 1850 only 69% of men and 54% of women could even read.  I was also thinking prior to the 1800's and the advent of newspapers when people barely knew what was going in the next county.

Perhaps Channel 4 might broadcast a documentary on anti-semitism presented by someone like Simon Schama who is a balanced and highly-regarded broadcaster rather than someone with a history of wearing blackface while targeting a black footballer for ridicule and with participants who do not include those such as Sarah Silverman, who has also performed in blackface while saying "I look like the beautiful Queen Latifah" or Stephen Fry who has a history of anti-Polish and anti-Catholic statements. 

The ugly truth is a lot of white British people like a focus on anti-semitism because it allows them to feel good about themselves - Britain having been, in purely relative terms, one of the least anti-semitic western countries over the past 200 years - a good thing and something of which it should be proud - while also punching down on minorities that they see as ... more alien (a point well illustrated by the previous poster saying "I feel far more kinship with Jews than I do any other minority.").

It's unsurprising to me to see the non-Polish, non-Catholic white British people doing the double-take at my Stephen Fry comments. Stephen Fry is not Catholic, has never been Catholic, but comments endlessly about how awful the Catholic church is and how awful Catholics are. If you're not Catholic then you may not notice it, but it goes back years and years and I've linked to only one example. It's exactly like the people who go on and on about how awful Israel is - they may have fair points in what they say, but when it seems to be their principal focus - it does suggest anti-semitism. 

No my views on the actions of the Israeli state have nothing to do with the religion of the majority of Israelis and the fact that it remains the only country on the planet where your military service guarantees you frontline military action.

The Catholic Church was just as complicit in imperialism and doing horrendous things to indigenous people of third world countries as the British so I don't see why you can't criticise them too.  They had a huge influence on what the Spanish did in South America for starters.

Fry is anti-Catholic, no doubt about it. I think the scepticism was your claim that he has "made a career out of it." 

Not sure about his anti-Polonism, although there's plenty of that around.

Again Rob’s very strong tendency to see “being British” as an explanatory factor coming to the fore.

For what it’s worth, the idea that the Nazis put Auschwitz in Poland because there were a lot of “right-wing Catholics” there is obviously complete nonsense. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have anything useful to say about anti-Semitism though

I didn’t grow up in an area where anti-semitism was an issue, the state school I attended was highly multicultural and racism just wasn’t a thing (kudos to the school and also the high level of cultural mixing in the town generally). So now as an adult when I voice any criticism of Israel for its genocidal, occupier-state actions, someone will predictably call me anti-Semitic and it always baffles me as to why.

I also think it’s a very fair criticism that he’d never met Lee in person to apologise until now. Who I see is listed as a Diversity and Inclusion Consultant. So they’ve both benefited from this program.

Fry is an atheist and humanist. I'm not aware of him singling catholicism out for special criticism. He's quite scathing about organised religion in general as far as I know.  

For me equality law is about equality, not about who has more money than someone else or what class people are. Even in the 1970s I was never with the left wing feminists wanting communism and social change. It has always been a gulf between those seeking fairness and equality and those who are left wing which might explain the different views on the topic of this thread.

It would breach the Equality Act 2010 if someone who was a billionaire were excluded from a job because they were white, jewish, female, male, one legged, trans etc. It is not a question of one factor meaning someone has more brownie points because of being doubly disadvantaged to me.

Can't make head nor tail of this thread. What's it all about? Catholics are a force for evil? Save civilisation from the Barbarians and this is the thanks you get.  

I've been reading this with interest but putting off a reply that responds to the programme itself until I've finished watching it.

There's a small handful of ROFers who declare their colours about their ethnicity/colour. I'm a Jew. I dont know whether others replying to this are or are not. I'm not sure it greatly matters.

FWIW personally as a man in my early 60s, I have never experienced any hostility on account of my being a Jew, perhaps because I don't look particularly semitic, perhaps I am just very lucky.

The only occasion I can think of where my nationality has caused another nationality to act 'irrationally' towards me on account of my being an Englishman, was when I worked in North Wales.

I absolutely get why those of Irish descent feel at unease in England. I would feel likewise if I had seen signs saying no Jews (instead of no Irish or blacks) if I had been looking to put a roof over my head in the 60s. The older history is very ugly and does not cover the UK in glory; anything but.

I do however remain the eternal optimist.

I dont like dwelling on the past, though subscribe to the view we should learn from it.

If Baddiel has made an apology belatedly or otherwise for his own banana skins, maybe the time has come that, if he has something worthwhile to say, people could listen without harking back. 

The cricketer who complained about his treatment in Yorkshire was if you recall reminded of anti semitic tweets he had made. He apologised and went to a Synagogue to try and demonstrate his willingness to address his own attitudes. I recall bringing that to the attention of the board when it happened. I like concentrating on positives not negatives.

If you want to perpetuate hate hang onto it. If you want to move forward, let it go and try listening with fresh and open ears.

"If you want to perpetuate hate hang onto it. If you want to move forward, let it go and try listening with fresh and open ears."

Hear hear ;)

politics gets in the way a bit imo. there are about 2.7 million Muslims in the UK and about 380,000 Jews.

Obviously neither group votes as a block. But even so

wiki tells me there are 15 Muslim MPs (12 Labour and 3 Conservative)

whereas Conservatives have more Hindu MPs (5 con, 3 labour)

Jewish MPs split is 11 con, 5 labour.

Starmer's wife is Jewish

The Jason Lee thing was funny at the time. It was about him being an embarrassingly bad player with a ridiculous hairstyle. As a Forest fan I can confirm this to be the case. 

The Church of England has also been a force for evil in days gone by.  Most religions at one time or another have been used as excuses to persecute other people.

see the number of MPs is one of the reasons I say people struggle with the concept of Jewish people being discriminated against, 16 MPs for a group 380,000 people, or one MP per roughly  25,000 people whereas one would only expect about 1 MP per 100,000 on average

There may well be discrimination against Jewish people in this country but it does not seem to manifest itself as limiting their ability to advance in politics or many other professions so while it does not excuse anti semitism in the slightest perhaps provides an explanation as to why it is not always taken as seriously as discrimination against other minorities.  

France had a Jewish Prime Minister in 1938. Rathenau was German foreign minister until his assassination. If anyone thinks that having MPs means that racism shouldn't be taken seriously then there's little that can be said.

Any other minorities you want to lecture on what is and isn’t discrimination guy? Or honeybun or Rob C or numerous other on this thread. 

And while we’re at it, if Rob is still here, can you think of any reasons why people might be anti Catholic Church, regardless of sexuality?

No it's not Zero.  Most anti-semitism is rooted in the belief that the Jewish exert undue influence over the worlds of finance and politics and largely form the shadowy elite that runs the world.

I'd much rather be known for that than bumming sheep.

Dunno this thread just seems like a bunch of people saying that anti semitism isn’t a thing whilst being antisemitic. 

Er Zero- I’m not lecturing anyone on what discrimination is. What did I say that made you think that?

British Chinese are interesting. 430,000. But 30% not registered according to wiki. only 1 mp. Alan Mak

but I doubt british chinese are discriminated against in British politics. 

It's more the other way round that the apparent over representation breeds the anti-semitism.

So many blacks on the television right now aren't there?  Many more than is representative of society!  It's POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD!

Dunno this thread just seems like a bunch of people saying that anti semitism isn’t a thing whilst being antisemitic. 

This.  Probably because Baddiel is right that the Jews don't count.

There are sensible rational people who - during the Corbyn years - could not see that they were being openly anti-semitic by - for example - holding every British Jew responsible for the actions of the Israeli state and by bringing Israel into debates when totally irrelevant.  Just one example of many of why lots of people don't see being anti-semitic as "punching down".

Sorry honeybun you’re right, you’re one of the ones saying anti Jewish discrimination isn’t actually a thing, rather than telling us what it is. 

Zero you are talking absolute bollocks on this thread.  The program made by Baddiel and the subject matter of this thread is exploring the question of why anti semitism appears not to be taken as seriously as other forms minority discrimination in the UK.   My post simply sets out my views on why this is.   Saying the perceived and indeed actual relative success of jewish people in society may be an explanation as to why discrimination is not taken as seriously is NOT the same thing as saying it is a justification for discrimination and most certainly is not in itself anti semitic.  HTH

OGR so it's fine to racially abuse someone if they aren't good enough to be in the premier League? That appears to be the thrust of your point , along with yeah racism is funny...

Have the program recorded

Tom I'm sure you're bright enough to know that people are discriminated against for different reasons and that different forms of discrimination lead to different outcomes.

They took the piss out of Jason because he was a shite footballer with a stupid hairstyle, not because one of his parents was black.
 

I am assuming you never went to law lectures about the concept of causation. 

The Jason Lee thing was funny at the time. It was about him being an embarrassingly bad player with a ridiculous hairstyle. As a Forest fan I can confirm this to be the case. 

 

True, but blacking up to sing it wasn't his finest hour.

Tom I'm sure you're bright enough to know that people are discriminated against for different reasons and that different forms of discrimination lead to different outcomes.

Maybe so, but I take the view that all forms of unlawful discrimination are equal, no matter which protected characteristic is involved.  I don't subscribe to a "hierarchy of discrimination" and thankfully Parliament agreed with me.  Many on this board take a different view, but I don't care.

They took the piss out of Jason because he was a shite footballer with a stupid hairstyle, not because one of his parents was black.

And blacking up was necessary for what reason?

Wot Tom said, blacking up very strongly implied that his skin colour one of things about him to make fun of.

Heh I didn’t spot that - “one of his parents was black”. 
 

Guy this thread feels to me like an exercise in exactly the thing baddiel is complaining about, it’s full of people saying that anti semitism wasn’t a thing when they were young, that the Muslims/ catholics/ whoever have it worse, that there are lots of Jewish MPs so it can’t be that bad, etc and so on

Tom I didn't say there was a hierarchy I was merely pointing out that the discrimination against jewish people has generally been based on the perception that they are successful and powerful and so is born of jealousy.

However, still nobody mentions the horrible things the English did to the Welsh over the years.

discrimination against jewish people has generally been based on the perception that they are successful and powerful 

Correct, this is the trope which is based on race and isn't true

and so is born of jealousy

And this makes it somehow less bad, even though the trope isn't true?

THIS IS LITERALLY DAVID BADDIEL'S POINT!

with a stupid hairstyle

Remind me, was this hairstyle one which only people with afro hair could have?  What do people with afro hair have in common?

True, but blacking up to sing it wasn't his finest hour.

I don't think he did, it was a chant from Chelsea fans which followed the sketch.

Zero, I still think people are talking about reasons why they think anti semitism is not taken so seriously not reasons why they think it shouldn't be.  Certainly as far as I am concerned discrimination and race hatred is equally bad whoever the victim.

Yeah, he did, that's what baffled me for so long about his inability/unwillingness to apologise. The song was one thing...

Tom I'm not saying it's any better or worse but merely that the reasons for it differ from other forms of discrimination which is the case.  It's a simple statement of fact rather than any value judgement.

The very fact that about a third of the comments on this thread are about Jason Lee is so extraordinarily predictable. So if David Schwimmer had written this book and made the programme everybody would have been ok with it and the ensuing Twitter and ROF comments would have been full of agreement and solidarity? 

Ahem, I call bullshit. The Lee issue is an easy tool to use to avoid the conversation and turn it back on the person highlighting a societal problem. 

wilfred, if a well known tv presenter makes a tv show about racism I think it is absolutely inevitable, legitimate and correct, that his own prior racist behaviour is discussed.

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