So Guy are you saying that the subject matter is important but the presenter is a racist? If so then presumably the racism of the presenter shouldn’t have any bearing on the discussion given the debate relates to Jews in general rather than just Baddiel?
Or are you just being as mealy mouthed as you’ve been in this thread to date?
I was surprised when Whoopi Goldberg made insensitive comments about the holocaust because I had assumed (purely from her name) that she is Jewish herself.
I was struck by Schwimmer stating that he had never for a day in his life felt white. Is this something felt more by the Jewish community in the States than in Britain or Europe?
I recently watched the Schama documentary (Story of the Jews) and it struck me just how toxic a witches' brew anti-semitism is - bringing together so many pernicious strands of prejudice, from racial and class hatred to fear of the foreigner, the idea that a mysterious unaccountable elite control the world, and plain old envy. I disagree with Guy Crouchbank's 8.37 and other posts - I think envy is one of the most corrosive emotions and the very success of the Jewish community (often achieved in the teeth of both unofficial and legalized discrimination) has made them a target from pretty much Roman times onwards.
I used to think that racism wasn't really a standalone problem - I thought it was nastiness born of (largely economic) insecurity. Give the racist the tools to feel safe and secure and they will abandon their silly purported beliefs.
But rof has been part of my journey to acceptance that this is not the case.
That very much is not the case. Just look at the folks holding the Big Sporting Event right now. All the wealth in the world hasn't changed (in fact probably has hardened) many of their attitudes. Ironically, prior to World War I at least, it would seem that the same parts of the world that now have the deepest animosity towards Jews were probably safer for the Jewish communities that once existed there (as "people of the book") than large areas of eastern Europe and Russia.
Anti-semitism seems to only exist in this country from Muslims, and in the mainstream liberal elite there is a tolerance of Islam and its prejudices. In that sense, there is an indirect acceptance of anti-semitism. It doesn’t assist Jews that Jewishness a) is both a race and a religion and b) overlaps strongly with Zionism. It makes it very easy to discriminate against Jews on religious or political grounds (both of which I consider acceptable) and to make it impossible to tell whether discrimination is on racial grounds (which I find unacceptable). There is a lot of noise. I would say that racist antisemitism is about 1% as prevalent in this country as people like Baddiel think it is.
And I don’t need to hear from Schwimmer on the subject at all. The absolute cheek of somebody that successful and popular thinking they have been discriminated against.
"So Guy are you saying that the subject matter is important but the presenter is a racist? If so then presumably the racism of the presenter shouldn’t have any bearing on the discussion given the debate relates to Jews in general rather than just Baddiel?
Or are you just being as mealy mouthed as you’ve been in this thread to date? "
I am saying if somebody makes a tv program about racism and has themselves been racist on television in the past it is going to be brought up. That is inevitable, hypocrisy always is. Obviously it has no bearing on substance of the issue of anti semitism per se.
I have not been in the least bit mealy mouthed on this thread. My point is very clear - that the perceived relative success of jewish people in this country has led people to not to take discrimination against them as seriously. I have been very clear that this is an explanation not a justification and that all race discrimination and race hate is equally serious, whoever it is aimed at.
Maybe, Roger, you have more insight than many. I think mainstream telly - even on hefty issues - does need to be a bit light for the Producer’s fear of dumb Britain turning off. But if it educates some that is probably a good thing.
1. Being anti-Catholic is a perfectly reasonable position.
2. It has been interesting to see Ash Sarkar et al tying themselves up in all sorts of contradictory knots over Baddiel’s book.
It’s a short book - will take you less than an hour - and the argument he lays out is largely unplayable, hence most of the criticism being playing the man rather than the ball and wibbling on about Jason Lee.
I am a little sad that this thread has driven the loon comments once more but I guess that’s life now. There is some decent discussion above too.
the tosses and turns of my family mean that in the 30s, Joseph Goebbels would have determined me to be a Jew. My mother was the birth child of a woman who was borne to a Jewish family. My mother was adopted in the War, raised CofE and unaware of her heritage and none of us were until more recently. But I have asked a lot of questions since teen years about anti-Semitism which I recognised as a thing of history and the present but was always perplexed by it.
The issues for which Jews appeared historically to be persecuted in the societies in which they lived - Russia, Belarus. Poland, Germany etc - have always seemed virtues to me and things that other cultures and religions teach as societal goals: prosperity for the good of the immediate community you are a part of, strong cultural identity, religious observance, a protective and supportive community and family structure, preservation of heritage, tradition and language, patronage of own culture, the relevance of arts, music and literature to those societal and religious learnings, teaching of young of the importance of awareness of who you are, where you come from, what are the shared values by which you should live and handing that on to those that follow you.
So the reaction by those distrusting that and other elements of a Jewish community which they profess to hate, such as Nazis, the modern extreme right and confused left, seemed illogical and entirely defensive, at odds with their own stated goals and a fallacy: they say ‘marginalise the Jew or they will prosper and marginalise you and being marginalised in your own community is bad yeah.’
The platform used by the Nazis as a basis for this deceit was a reach back to a time of European continental history when communities on the Rhine and Alps were of a certain genetic type. An act of public re-education intended to legitimise intolerance and a complete failure to grasp the true nature of development of man and community, not a wonderful purist ideology. As a Briton should I long for preSaxon days, the Vikings, Romans, Picts, Normans, Dutch, French…where do we start in the determination of our societal lifesource? what is my cultural heritage? We start with what we’ve got now. All of it is my heritage. It is our responsibility to be tolerant and our privilege to have such a rich pallet at our fingertips.
This applies to social, cultural and religious minorities, the influx of migrant communities and the access we have to the diversity of perspective in Britain. Without that what would we be? Boudicca’s hating, fighty children, shitting ourselves at the fear of losing our identity and being swept over by a menacing force but enriching the lives and perspectives of our own world to the tune of zero.
Oh yeah that’s where politics has gone. Shit. How did we let that happen? Where is the welcoming liberal voice in the modern world?
All the virtues of Jews you list above would be claimed for any community; certainly the Nazis would see themselves as embodying them. And all peoples seek justification for their beliefs. Legitimacy. Because, as you imply, all communities distrust other communities. That is a fact of life.
Very sadly we are now at a point where sheer shouty ignorance is increasingly prevalent and supposedly educated people are contemptuous of history and obsessed with entirely trivial issues. Well, we know how that ends.
Perhaps rof’s historians could lead the way in suggesting helpful texts to those apparently devoid of the rich heritage you so rightly note it is a privilege to possess. Let’s start with The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt.
All the virtues of Jews you list above would be claimed for any community
And this is the very benefit and real purpose of organised religion - nothing more, really, than a non-governmental form of authority to achieve societal conformance and maintain order in the pressure cooker, perhaps transcending changes in politics, invasions etc. So many organised religions share the same principles but claim to be in the right. They have a common genesis.
A specific point I think is not so much the organised religious element of Judaism but that Jewish exclusion has actually been a driver to achieve success. It's also given Jews the incentive to forge a community that often goes beyond national boundaries. And given that success breeds resentment - and 'internationalism' is frequently seen as worthy of suspicion - it's something of a viscous circle.
What I do find funny is the theme of Israel. Jews suffer anti-Semitism the world over (albeit comparatively low amounts in the UK). One would imagine therefore that anti-Semites would be delighted for Jews to be in their own land. But at the same time Israel is vilified to an unimaginable degree by said anti-Semites. Presumably their only solution is therefore for Jews to cease to exist.
Muttley, I imagine you are well aware, but if your mother was born to a Jewish mother, and it is very likely in that generation she would be traditionally Orthodox, you are a full blown Jew in Jewish law.
You have a right to live in Israel and to be buried in a Jewish graveyard. Congratulations (though some on here might say commiserations).
Muttley, I imagine you are well aware, but if your mother was born to a Jewish mother, and it is very likely in that generation she would be traditionally Orthodox, you are a full blown Jew in Jewish law.
You have a right to live in Israel and to be buried in a Jewish graveyard. Congratulations (though some on here might say commiserations).
this thread made me think about whether I'd ever witnessed any anti Jewish prejudice in my life. and I remembered when I was about 10, some classmates referring to someone as jewish when they were being careful with money. and then weirdly the same thing maybe a couple of times at university. but that's all I've ever come across.
On a slighter lighter note than the doubtless aggro that precedes this, I've just listened to this and would heartily recommend - Jews talking Jew stuff as Marc Maron would, and did, put it.
“What I do find funny is the theme of Israel. Jews suffer anti-Semitism the world over (albeit comparatively low amounts in the UK). One would imagine therefore that anti-Semites would be delighted for Jews to be in their own land. But at the same time Israel is vilified to an unimaginable degree by said anti-Semites. Presumably their only solution is therefore for Jews to cease to exist.”
Israel definitely has the right to exist. But so does Palestine. The anti-semitism exhibited by the Muslim world is a response to Palestinian Muslims being oppressed in Israel and not due to inherent anti-Jewishness sentiments. Muslims and Jews lived pretty peacefully together before Israel.
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Massive irony also that footie is utterly tribal.
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So Guy are you saying that the subject matter is important but the presenter is a racist? If so then presumably the racism of the presenter shouldn’t have any bearing on the discussion given the debate relates to Jews in general rather than just Baddiel?
Or are you just being as mealy mouthed as you’ve been in this thread to date?
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I was surprised when Whoopi Goldberg made insensitive comments about the holocaust because I had assumed (purely from her name) that she is Jewish herself.
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I was struck by Schwimmer stating that he had never for a day in his life felt white. Is this something felt more by the Jewish community in the States than in Britain or Europe?
I recently watched the Schama documentary (Story of the Jews) and it struck me just how toxic a witches' brew anti-semitism is - bringing together so many pernicious strands of prejudice, from racial and class hatred to fear of the foreigner, the idea that a mysterious unaccountable elite control the world, and plain old envy. I disagree with Guy Crouchbank's 8.37 and other posts - I think envy is one of the most corrosive emotions and the very success of the Jewish community (often achieved in the teeth of both unofficial and legalized discrimination) has made them a target from pretty much Roman times onwards.
That very much is not the case. Just look at the folks holding the Big Sporting Event right now. All the wealth in the world hasn't changed (in fact probably has hardened) many of their attitudes. Ironically, prior to World War I at least, it would seem that the same parts of the world that now have the deepest animosity towards Jews were probably safer for the Jewish communities that once existed there (as "people of the book") than large areas of eastern Europe and Russia.
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Wot Pez Said.
Feel white? Not really.
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Anti-semitism seems to only exist in this country from Muslims, and in the mainstream liberal elite there is a tolerance of Islam and its prejudices. In that sense, there is an indirect acceptance of anti-semitism. It doesn’t assist Jews that Jewishness a) is both a race and a religion and b) overlaps strongly with Zionism. It makes it very easy to discriminate against Jews on religious or political grounds (both of which I consider acceptable) and to make it impossible to tell whether discrimination is on racial grounds (which I find unacceptable). There is a lot of noise. I would say that racist antisemitism is about 1% as prevalent in this country as people like Baddiel think it is.
And I don’t need to hear from Schwimmer on the subject at all. The absolute cheek of somebody that successful and popular thinking they have been discriminated against.
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Tbf he left it 20 years to complain but y’know, the traffic in midtown
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Lawd Pizzak- so much to unpack from your post.
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Undisputed worst post ever, from Pizzak_rap
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Apology was clearly due to program imo.
Can't believe Miriam Margolis was the most sensible person on the show....
Overall it felt a bit light imo
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"So Guy are you saying that the subject matter is important but the presenter is a racist? If so then presumably the racism of the presenter shouldn’t have any bearing on the discussion given the debate relates to Jews in general rather than just Baddiel?
Or are you just being as mealy mouthed as you’ve been in this thread to date? "
I am saying if somebody makes a tv program about racism and has themselves been racist on television in the past it is going to be brought up. That is inevitable, hypocrisy always is. Obviously it has no bearing on substance of the issue of anti semitism per se.
I have not been in the least bit mealy mouthed on this thread. My point is very clear - that the perceived relative success of jewish people in this country has led people to not to take discrimination against them as seriously. I have been very clear that this is an explanation not a justification and that all race discrimination and race hate is equally serious, whoever it is aimed at.
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Maybe, Roger, you have more insight than many. I think mainstream telly - even on hefty issues - does need to be a bit light for the Producer’s fear of dumb Britain turning off. But if it educates some that is probably a good thing.
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You have to try to drag in more of dumb Britain and get them to think, absolutely right mutters. However painful.
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1. Being anti-Catholic is a perfectly reasonable position.
2. It has been interesting to see Ash Sarkar et al tying themselves up in all sorts of contradictory knots over Baddiel’s book.
It’s a short book - will take you less than an hour - and the argument he lays out is largely unplayable, hence most of the criticism being playing the man rather than the ball and wibbling on about Jason Lee.
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I am a little sad that this thread has driven the loon comments once more but I guess that’s life now. There is some decent discussion above too.
the tosses and turns of my family mean that in the 30s, Joseph Goebbels would have determined me to be a Jew. My mother was the birth child of a woman who was borne to a Jewish family. My mother was adopted in the War, raised CofE and unaware of her heritage and none of us were until more recently. But I have asked a lot of questions since teen years about anti-Semitism which I recognised as a thing of history and the present but was always perplexed by it.
The issues for which Jews appeared historically to be persecuted in the societies in which they lived - Russia, Belarus. Poland, Germany etc - have always seemed virtues to me and things that other cultures and religions teach as societal goals: prosperity for the good of the immediate community you are a part of, strong cultural identity, religious observance, a protective and supportive community and family structure, preservation of heritage, tradition and language, patronage of own culture, the relevance of arts, music and literature to those societal and religious learnings, teaching of young of the importance of awareness of who you are, where you come from, what are the shared values by which you should live and handing that on to those that follow you.
So the reaction by those distrusting that and other elements of a Jewish community which they profess to hate, such as Nazis, the modern extreme right and confused left, seemed illogical and entirely defensive, at odds with their own stated goals and a fallacy: they say ‘marginalise the Jew or they will prosper and marginalise you and being marginalised in your own community is bad yeah.’
The platform used by the Nazis as a basis for this deceit was a reach back to a time of European continental history when communities on the Rhine and Alps were of a certain genetic type. An act of public re-education intended to legitimise intolerance and a complete failure to grasp the true nature of development of man and community, not a wonderful purist ideology. As a Briton should I long for preSaxon days, the Vikings, Romans, Picts, Normans, Dutch, French…where do we start in the determination of our societal lifesource? what is my cultural heritage? We start with what we’ve got now. All of it is my heritage. It is our responsibility to be tolerant and our privilege to have such a rich pallet at our fingertips.
This applies to social, cultural and religious minorities, the influx of migrant communities and the access we have to the diversity of perspective in Britain. Without that what would we be? Boudicca’s hating, fighty children, shitting ourselves at the fear of losing our identity and being swept over by a menacing force but enriching the lives and perspectives of our own world to the tune of zero.
Oh yeah that’s where politics has gone. Shit. How did we let that happen? Where is the welcoming liberal voice in the modern world?
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All the virtues of Jews you list above would be claimed for any community; certainly the Nazis would see themselves as embodying them. And all peoples seek justification for their beliefs. Legitimacy. Because, as you imply, all communities distrust other communities. That is a fact of life.
Very sadly we are now at a point where sheer shouty ignorance is increasingly prevalent and supposedly educated people are contemptuous of history and obsessed with entirely trivial issues. Well, we know how that ends.
Perhaps rof’s historians could lead the way in suggesting helpful texts to those apparently devoid of the rich heritage you so rightly note it is a privilege to possess. Let’s start with The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt.
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All the virtues of Jews you list above would be claimed for any community
And this is the very benefit and real purpose of organised religion - nothing more, really, than a non-governmental form of authority to achieve societal conformance and maintain order in the pressure cooker, perhaps transcending changes in politics, invasions etc. So many organised religions share the same principles but claim to be in the right. They have a common genesis.
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A specific point I think is not so much the organised religious element of Judaism but that Jewish exclusion has actually been a driver to achieve success. It's also given Jews the incentive to forge a community that often goes beyond national boundaries. And given that success breeds resentment - and 'internationalism' is frequently seen as worthy of suspicion - it's something of a viscous circle.
What I do find funny is the theme of Israel. Jews suffer anti-Semitism the world over (albeit comparatively low amounts in the UK). One would imagine therefore that anti-Semites would be delighted for Jews to be in their own land. But at the same time Israel is vilified to an unimaginable degree by said anti-Semites. Presumably their only solution is therefore for Jews to cease to exist.
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Muttley, I imagine you are well aware, but if your mother was born to a Jewish mother, and it is very likely in that generation she would be traditionally Orthodox, you are a full blown Jew in Jewish law.
You have a right to live in Israel and to be buried in a Jewish graveyard. Congratulations (though some on here might say commiserations).
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Whoopi Goldberg's real name is Caryn Johnson. I imagine the 'Goldberg' was to get ahead of Hollywood.
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* in
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Shkoyach!
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Prodigal Son23 Nov 22 11:26
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Muttley, I imagine you are well aware, but if your mother was born to a Jewish mother, and it is very likely in that generation she would be traditionally Orthodox, you are a full blown Jew in Jewish law.
You have a right to live in Israel and to be buried in a Jewish graveyard. Congratulations (though some on here might say commiserations).
yes indeed
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What did Ash say about the book / show?
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Mazel tov Mutters.
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Didn’t mention the need to get circumcised if you decide to go down the Jewish burial route. Don’t let it put you off.
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That aint happening. Turns out I am a gentile after all. From toe to tip.
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Can they do the old schnippums post mortem but pre burial? Am back in the game if so.
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this thread made me think about whether I'd ever witnessed any anti Jewish prejudice in my life. and I remembered when I was about 10, some classmates referring to someone as jewish when they were being careful with money. and then weirdly the same thing maybe a couple of times at university. but that's all I've ever come across.
I will watch the programme
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Possibly but my Judaically honed legal instincts tells me it may prejudice the path to heaven.
Might Rigor creat issues?
Just get it sorted now and these concerns will vanish.
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On a slighter lighter note than the doubtless aggro that precedes this, I've just listened to this and would heartily recommend - Jews talking Jew stuff as Marc Maron would, and did, put it.
http://www.wtfpod.com/podcast/episode-1386-live-with-david-baddiel
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“What I do find funny is the theme of Israel. Jews suffer anti-Semitism the world over (albeit comparatively low amounts in the UK). One would imagine therefore that anti-Semites would be delighted for Jews to be in their own land. But at the same time Israel is vilified to an unimaginable degree by said anti-Semites. Presumably their only solution is therefore for Jews to cease to exist.”
Israel definitely has the right to exist. But so does Palestine. The anti-semitism exhibited by the Muslim world is a response to Palestinian Muslims being oppressed in Israel and not due to inherent anti-Jewishness sentiments. Muslims and Jews lived pretty peacefully together before Israel.
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