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Watches and Wonders 2023 - New Watch Releases

Haven't had chance, to go through all the brands that I prefer, but Rolex for the first time in their history have produced an open case back. Rolex perpetual 1908, absolutely  stunning. Looks like the PP Calatrava, but much better and nicer. I never thought I would say that. I want one.

Simi, I was at my AD last week for a catch up, having made 3 purchases in the last 18 months . WoS, are not taking orders on any new releases until they physically have them in stock in August.

The reason being, is each store will receive hundreds of calls each day with messers claiming they want x watch, so they can boast to their mates and never pick it up. Administratively its a nightmare for them and it takes them away from their day job. They also cannot be sure when the new pieces will arrive, creating more headache.

Of course other ADs may do it diffrently...

WoS isn't the best for that.

 

My will not treat an order as 'active' until you have been in to see them in person (and have some purchase history).  On Rolex, they will only sell you two in any one year, and not the same model as an attempt to avoid filling.  You cant actually order as such - you are on a list to be considered when a watch matching your criteria comes in.  

 

I went down on the list for a Rolex speculatively (Milgaus then a Submariner) and the first time they said it could be two years and called me in two weeks saying someone had backed out of a purchase and for the second one sold me one immediately.  Worth just whacking your name down and flipping I reckon.

(Sold both as now only wear an Apple Watch.  Miss being a watch geek a bit so came on this thread for da memoreez)

CV, I don't deny Rolex hs become a bit chavvy, well some have. Thats Why I have  2 Omegas, which  have technically much better movements.

Davos, only this weekend I was thinking about buying a Calatrava, I had one ten years ago but sold it.

I don't think I can justify the price nowadays, and hey presto, Rolex have one that is similar., and 6k less I think. I have my name down for a Chocolate face Daytona, on an Oyster Flex. I suspect it won't happen, and I am sure it wont happen now it has become discontinued. Also have my name down for the everose Yacht Master on an Oysterfex. But really want this one now. Davos you thinkig about one?

I've got two but rarely wear them. They have some sentimental value to me (got first one with first proper bonus and second one when I made partner) so I don't want to lose them, destroy them or get them nicked.

Wear my omega more often, if I do with a watch.

I do love those new ones though. Would consider.

@ Play, because the shortage caused by Covid, supply chain issues, and watchmaking becoming a dn art which us dying, they cannot make enough to suit the demand. In fairness, nor do they want to, its a perfect storm for Rolex TBH. They want to be part of the Holy Trinity, and are chasing that piece, hard.

@  Davos, which do you prefer, the Perpetual 108, or everose gold Yacht Master on Oyster flex, I am so torn now. I have two Omegas, one 44MM chronometer  seamaster on a rubber band in sedna gold, and a Bluesy. I am not really feeling another sports type watch hence I like the new OP 1908, and the yachtmaster, everose gold

The idea of buying a watch as an investment (ie with resale in mind at some point) is just weird to me. It’s a thing you buy to look pretty on your wrist and tell the time with. 
 

The 1908 looks nice but too close to a caltrava to be of interest for me and the whole hype around Rolex now is a big turn off. 

If you want a Yachtmaster get into sailing as they're always handing them out as prizes at Rolex sponsored events.

How much money and time would it take to get into a sport you have zero interest in and commit sufficiently to win events sponsored by Rolex?

Versus just buying a Yachtmaster?

It's almost like you were just trying to shoehorn sailing into a watch thread despite it having no relevance at all to the matters being discussed.

The idea of buying a watch as an investment (ie with resale in mind at some point) is just weird to me.

Wait until you find out about other things purchased as investments! 

Tom it would be a more expensive way of getting a watch but from what I can tell on these threads probably faster as recruit a decent crew and you could probably do it in two years.

You could charter me and some mates some win you a class in the Fastnet for a lot less than £140k and probably actually not much more than the cost of a far less bling model.  I know a man entering this summer who'd probably give you the watch if he won in return for a few grand in sponsorship.

it's the fake sense of demand that annoys me. 

I had a mild flirt with the tudor panda chrono 12 months ago.  This time last year you could only get the steel/gold one, and the black or white ones were a "2-3 year wait".  Just popped into WoS and they've got a black one in the window.  

I asked to see it, and casually asked what their view on the new Daytona was.  He said the Daytona had a 20 year wait list for people who weren’t customers with a relationship.  Then asked if I was interested in the Tudor. 

I said I actually preferred the normal panda to the reverse panda, and he immediately made up a story about having just had a customer cancel a white panda order.  He had it in the safe.  If I was definitely going to buy it, he’d take it out.  But it was only available immediately, as he was going to call a waitlist customer in the next hour.  fooking nonsense. 

Lange, my dream watch, oh well. Added bonus of that brand no watch scumbag thief will have a clue what it is, so unlikely to be robbed for it.

Yes all these flippers, who made fortunes and grey market dealers having stacks of inventory they cannot move , makes me weep with joy. They were just a year ago selling new unworn stickered Rolex watches at 2/3/4 x cost. Then the bubble deflated, and people knew they were getting ripped off.  I have seen no end of videos on youtube a year plus ago, with grey market dealers arrogantly pressurising buyers to buy today, or the price will. rise. Their mantra was " todays pprice is not tomorrows price, tomorrow it will be more"  Heres my mantra, todays price I offer you will not be tomorrows price, as they are falling you greedy aunts.That said my Bluesy I got after circa 3 months wait in October is still trading at 24% over rrp. I was told it was a 2 plus year wait

I agree anyone , and there are hundreds if not thousands of people who bought watches to sell at mad multiples have got their fingers burnt, and are shedding inventory just to get some money back. Buying a watch as investment is mental. A fair few back pack flippers and bricks and mortar grey market dealers borrowed heavily, through remortgaging or credit cards to buy this stuff, and now they are fooked. Good

I like the look of the Perpetual 1908, especially as Patek have seem to have ignored my perfectly reasonable request for an update to the 5196.

39mm perhaps a bit big for a dress watch but it would depend on how it wears.

Price is fooking ridiculous - it's actually more than the 5196 used to cost.

yeah, but estate agents are friendly spivs.  This guy had a slight menacing edge to him.  Like I needed to say "pretty please" and promise to pay before he'd walk 20m to the safe and remove a watch for me to look at.  He's selling something for £4,500 that was £4200 3 months ago.  I didn't feel much salescraft from him.

ALS prices have gone up for the second time in a year (GBP prices at least). Some pieces nearly a third more expensive than they were 18 months ago. Lange 1 is now £43,600. Saxonia moonphase (which I very nearly bought for £24k grey market 18 months ago) is now £39k. And these are the relatively uncomplicated pieces. But used auction prices are barely hitting 60% of RRP (see performance on Watch Collecting of late).

Thoughts welcome on where grey market prices will go, how is the market standing up to such price increases, do we think they are a long-term bet?

I'm obsessed by Lange. But not rich enough to buy one of these at these prices without thinking of it being a potential source of liquidity for me in the future in the case of a property or toy car purchase. Which probably means that I'm not rich enough full stop. Unfortunately the true entry levels without moonphase or outsize date do nothing for me.

@ elementary, the Lange prices you quote are presumably grey market prices ? Anyway Lange prices IMO will rise significantly, they only make 20000 watches a year… as to Rolexes grey market prices are falling quickly. Grey market dealers are stuck with stuff they cannot move , hence prices dropping. They are desperate to cash out . This is good news for the end customer as it means there is more supply from the ADs . I say to anyone wanting a Rolex , don’t buy from a grey market dealer, at 50% plus rrp , there is no need to. Wait your turn with an AD ( there is currently more supply ) or buy another brand .

The perpetual 1908 I hope won’t be very popular and can get one as soon as WoS have one . There again the open case back for the first time might make the demand mental, after all it’s the first open case back they have ever done . Well not quite strictly true , the platinum Daytona they realeased today has one but it’s 70 k plus . Mental 

Yes, ebit, the Calatrava. I remember it was 21k euros but tbh I can't remember if this was the last price before it was retired.

Jello, I don't think there are any Rolex shops in the UK (or anywhere, AFAIK) - only the showrooms and boutiques owned by Watches of Switzerland.

Marshall expensive watches need not be flashy at all , right ? Besides as others have said many bought them to flip at 2/3/4x rrp money . Hardly a bad choice  for them unless you’re the mug buying at those multiples .

No these are the Lange RRPs. They have risen twice quite dramatically in the last year. They make closer to 8k pieces a year.

I was wondering about people's thoughts on the massive RRP increases with lagging grey market prices.

 

ebit, is your's the 5196? this was retired last year and PP released the 5226 - if you've seen it, this is the one with the tarmac dial and the hobnailing on the side of the case. not a fan. i imagine they are waiting a while to let demand build before releasing a replacement for the 5196, at which point it will be unobtanium.

prices for their current models are available on the website.

King, I cannot remember the model number mine was, I sold it not long after I bought it.It was the silver rimmed, hob nail bezel, white dial? I fooking regret selling it . Is the Calatrava stil in production? it apears to be??

So here is a noddy question, but please indulge me. Why dont they just make more?

With watches like the Nautilus, Royal Oak, Daytona etc, why dont the manufacturers just double the price and make more of them? They would make more money, which must be their ultimate aim. You could argue that it might hit the brand exclusivity a little, but making a shitload of watches doesnt seem to have done Rolex any harm and if youre selling a steel watch for mid - high 5 figures it is always going to be an exclusive item.

Really, what do the manufacturers get out of the piece being so hard to come by?

It is weird that you cannot just walk into Patek and buy a Nautilus if you want one and you have the cash.

I'm sure I'm missing something.

@ iregistered, I am or was in entire agreement with you 100%. When I returned to the watch market four years ago, I went into my AD and asked to buy a sub, having bout one previously at 15% discount, straight from the window.

The manager explained , that was just not possible anymore and dealers were not getting the supply through, mainly as a consequence of supply chain issues, and watchmakers retiring andfewer being trained. I didn't believe him, so called 30 ADs over the next few weeks and they all said the same. Then Covid happened, which made things worse, so it was in fact a perfect storm for Rolex, in that they by chance became uber exclusive, with everyone wanting one.

Things got worse, models became scarcer throughout covid and beyond , and this created a secondary market, where people would put their names down at several ADs, get a call for any model, and then flip it at 2/3/4x cost. Which added to the frenzy.

However these part time dealers have been left hold piles of inventory they cannot now shift at mad prices, the best they can hope for is a 20% premium and that is falling still. They need to cash out, as most of them borrowed heavily to purchase these watches, so prices continue to fall, mainly due to the economic climate and such. Personally I just wait my turn at an AD, and don't get fooked by an unscrupulous grey market dealer.

But I don't entirely buy the whole there are far few watchmakers now due to many retiring. Rolex claim they will not comprimise on quality or finish, so wont ramp up production. Bollocks. Rolex are the Audi of the watch world. Very good, reliable in demand but no Ferrari, or Bentley. Rolex make a million watches a year, that is A LOT. I am sure they could ramp up manafacture by 20%, after all these watchmakers didn't retire overnight !

Think they opened a new factory recently. Rolex rely on the flipper market. You cannot buy one unless you have a relationship, buying 2 watches a year? Those guys have relationships with every AD within a 100mile radius. Watchstitutes. They buy under relationships and then flip. I'd be keen for Rolex to hold papers for 12 months then only release when the first owner comes in wearing the watch. 

Jelly they have opened a new factory, but my understanding that is a few years away from completion as yet. I don't think Rolex Geneva rely on the flipper market, nor do the large ADs like WoS. They hate the fact these flippers are making so much margin from their product.

What have Rolex done about it? They have culled and continue a huge amount of mom and pop/independent ADs. They are had to manage and police, and it was them that fuelled the flipper market. They want to manage fewer ADs, so they can police and manage them all better. I dont believe for a milli second that WoS were entertaining flippers and taking brown envelopes. I have spoken to a senior regional sales manager who told me there are too many processes and scrutiny from internal and external auditors that it could ever happen. Think mystery shopping, all rolexes shipped from Geneva, are sent to a WoS allocation team, who distribute it among stores as they see fit. The stores have little or no contact with the distribution team so as to prevent bribing etc.

I for one cannot wait until Rolex cull all their independents , it will be good for the genuine watch enthusiast 

The salws manager wouldn't even keep the stickers on my sub, despite my pleas. He told me in no uncertain terms he would be fired if caught. Geneva have told ADs they must remove all stickers.

heh.

Anyway the op 1908, on the alligator strap is worth the money, right? I cant get it out of my head , I think I will drop the Everose yacht master on the oyster flex, and save 6 k. Its a buy right?

I don't see the fuss about the 1908.  It's not a "PROPER" dress watch, because of the second sub-dial, and would prefer most every other dress watch, but that I want a dress watch.  But I tend to like for the things that no-one else wants.  Patek Weekly Calendar (steel, handwritten dial) is the current fave.

Rolex could make millions of watches a year but choose not to. Its how brands operate. If everyone was wearing one, they'd be mass market, not luxury with some on here chasing them a bit irrationally I think.

I suspect Breitling and others do similar.

Ignore chambe4s. 

 

You can't suddenly increase production volumes without significant investment. You need to grow your suppliers, dealers, customer support, quality control etc alongside your manufacturing.Hiring and training these new workers takes time and, should you fail to sell these new higher volumes, you could be left unprofitable, so investors require solid business plans and this also takes time. Not to mention brand destruction risk. Previous customers would become disenfranchised if their purchases became devalued. So marketing would need to be convinced.  

ebit, the 1908 is (almost) Calatrava money for a Rolex watch. and quite why anyone would want an exhibition caseback for a Rolex movement is a mystery to me.

so even though it is quite pretty, it's a hard pass from me.

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