Shame the policeman was too concise. If he’d said “These loonies will have your kippah off you just for starters, sir” the heil would have to look elsewhere. The rest of what he said sounds sensible in the context of the new laws. Any public order act experts in? I can’t hear you.
Hmm, Sumo if you think that the blatant, shameless anti-Semitism seen on the streets (and college campuses) of the US and the UK is coming from the right wing conservatives you have your head truly in the clouds.
General but necessary reminder not to conflate pro-Palestinian protests with anti-Semitism.
We all know anti-semitism exists. As does Islamophobia. I can only go by my experience of attending the London protests and they’ve been largely peaceful, with Jewish and Muslim protesters walking side by side.
The rise in anti-Semitism in the UK, USA and other apparent human rights respecting countries has been shocking
And cheered on by various Hamas (a terrorist group) supporting people
Lol, this tired old dishonest dodge again. Give it up, you're continuing to do untold harm to the efforts by those who are actually concerned about genuine anti-semitism, and want what's best for the State and people of Israel.
Anti Israel marches for the most part are free of incident and only a tiny proportion of behaviour could be regarded as antisemetic.
Reminds me when Margaret Hodge compared being disciplined by Corbyn for being a gobshite to her parents' fear of being taken to a concentration camp in Nazi Germany.
No Margaret. They're not the same.
Is Dalek trolling or does he genuinely believe the crap he posts about?
Hmm, Sumo if you think that the blatant, shameless anti-Semitism seen on the streets (and college campuses) of the US and the UK is coming from the right wing conservatives you have your head truly in the clouds.
you think demonising anyone not "indigineous" throwing around phrases like "enemies of the people" and constantly chanting take back control don't have any consqequence?
how many of those anit semitic people grew up under the full force of UK conservativism?
maybe instead of divide and conquer pushing everyone into stupid camps HMG should have tried a bit of unite and lead
Anti miuslim hatred tripled. Who cares though. Highlighting anti muslim hatred doesn't advance the pro Israel agenda.
TBC hatred of any kind is not ok. But the Israel meat shields are weaponising antisemetisn again. To help smooth the path of the genocide of Palestinian Muslims. 🤷🏾♂️
What's the solution here? Unless the demo can be guaranteed to be 100% peaceful it should not be allowed too go ahead? Or as soon as a single incident occurs the whole demo should be dispersed/banned?
It is appalling. Why give in to mob rule? If a jewish man cannot walk freely on public streets and cannot even plot his weekend route to avoid known demonstration routes (because those routes change every week then he is not free to walk around London which cannot be right.
Our breach of the peace law has always been utterly dreadful in my view as it relies on the reaction of others even if those others have terrible view eg that women should not show their knees in public. Yet to show my knees in other places is not going to cause a breach because I am among normal ordinary Britons.
TBC hatred of any kind is not ok. But the Israel meat shields are weaponising antisemetisn again. To help smooth the path of the genocide of Palestinian Muslims.
This. Weaponising anti-semitism is a huge disservice to Jewish people. Now when one hears yet another knee jerk facile accusation of anti-semitism, it garners nothing more than eye-roll.
This was a Met sgt telling a jewish man that he couldnt go where he wanted to because he was openly jewish and that antagonised the palestinians.
We are forever being told that these protests arent anti-jewish but this kind of thing suggests otherwise. Threatening a jew with arrest for breach of the peace because hes jewish is disgusting.
I'm tired of seeing muslims treated as second in line for protection from discrimination and hate crimes.
Back in the Corbyn era, the media was awash with stories of antisemetisn in the Labour party like we w but one step away from Nazi Germany and the ruling Tory Party was awash with anti muslim behaviour called out by Baroness Warsi. Bit it wasn't politically expedient to make it national news. Getting Corbyn out was, so antisemetisn stories were big news
Now all I see are articles about anti Jewish sentiment because Israel is in the news on public trial for genocide.
Totally accept my opinion on the balance of reporting of late is not backed by any study but it's not a big leap too suggest that
1: the UK is besties with Israel so the antisemetisn line is helpful
2. It's accepted wisdom amongst the chattering classes that Muslims are a fifth column. Three dinner party test etc
So therefore antijewisg hatred is being elevated into public consciousness.
Far too much of our behaviour these days is judged according to how some snowflake other feels. Grow a fvcking pair you melts, you’re making yourselves redundant.
If the presence of a jewish man is going to antagonise those on the march, because he is visibly jewish then it is an anti-semetic hate march.
YES!!
THE ACTIONS OF THIS POLICEMAN HAVE PROVEN BEYOND ALL DOUBT THAT THIS PROTEST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DEAD PALESTINIAN CHILDREN, THE WHOLE THING WAS REALLY AN ANTI-SEMITIC HATE MARCH!!
I've an experience of this and I knew not to attract attention to myself.
One Saturday sitting in a pub in Shepherds Bush, a QPR crowd suddenly filled the pub on their way to a match. It was rammed full and they were singing their songs when they burst into "No surrender to the IRA"
My buddy thinking he was funny turned to me and said "it's your round mate"... "you can fvk off an all!" was my response, if they heard my accent I'd probably have been torn apart.
I WOULD ALSO INSIST THAT THE COPPER’S ACTIONS PROVED THAT ALL OF THE MARCHERS - INCLUDING THE BLACK MARCHERS - WERE OUT MARCHING BECAUSE OF THEIR HATRED OF BLACK PEOPLE, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT THE MARCHERS MIGHT CLAIM ARE THEIR ACTUAL REASONS FOR MARCHING
This police man seems to have been more afraid of how some of the marchers may react to an 'openly Jewish' person, than of how the presence of this person may upset the marchers. He wants to avoid violent confrontations and protect this Jewish man.
Wrong decisions based on bad assumptions in my opinion, but we can't expect all police officers to always take the most appropriate actions in every situation. It's not easy being a fair and neutral police officer these days. It's hardly impossible to not unnecessarily upset any party.
Any person who in any public place or at any public meeting uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or whereby a breach of the peace is likely to be occasioned, shall be guilty of an offence.
"Police action should target the persons responsible for the breach of the peace. Action taken that is not directed at the person committing the breach will generally be unlawful.
The guiding principle is that lawful conduct will rarely, if ever, be other than reasonable. Conversely, a violent reaction to the lawful conduct of others will rarely, if ever, be other than wholly unreasonable.
Where there is a reasonable belief that there are no other means to prevent a breach of the peace, the lawful exercise by innocent third parties of their rights may be restricted by the police. This is a test of necessity, which can only be justified in truly extreme and exceptional circumstances.
Before the police can take any steps that restrict the lawful exercise of rights by innocent third parties in any way, they must take all other possible steps – including making proper and advance preparations – to ensure that the breach, or imminent breach, is prevented and that the rights of third parties are protected."
So an innocent party can be arrested to prevent the commission of a BOTP by others. Interesting to see whether the Met thought that these were " truly extreme and exceptional circumstances" and whether all possible steps really had been taken to protect his rights before they threatened him with arrest.
Sorry, youre quite right. The current legislation is the criminal justice and public order act.
A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—
(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.
So being jewish is still not really enough. The guidance says that a lawful excercixe may be restricted, not that an innocent man can be arrested. Two different things.
Isn’t his kippah the visible representation which the marchers might find insulting? It’s a stretch but look at the state of these communities. Plus plod obvs and rightly wanted to avoid anything kicking off. Plus the guy is a campaigner and I reckon was trying to test the law. “I was exercising my right to walk around my home city as a Jewish Londoner. ”
You quote repealed legislation and, when corrected, still seem to be under the impression that breach of the peace itself is an offence.
The guidance says that a lawful excercixe may be restricted, not that an innocent man can be arrested.
How do you restricted lawful exercise of the man's right to cross the street through a mass demonstration, except by arresting him ? What do you think arrest means in the context of preventing a breach of the peace ?
Wondering what levels of interaction and insights you all actually have with/into Jewish & Muslim communities because you’re all sure sounding like experts.
I got the cirminal legislation wrong, fair enough. But then that was a quick google. i then quoted the correct legislation.
Tell me eeyore, how do you arrest someone that hasnt committed an offence? the copper was wrong in every single way.
Being visibly jewish isnt a provocation unless you are antisemetic. Which we are told these marches arent. Why then would a protestor be aggravated by the presence of a jew?
Breach of the peace is not part of the public order act (what you quoted was S4 of the POA - an offence that was not mentioned). It is not an offence you can be charged with but a common law power of police to arrest and, if required (without charging) bring before the bench for consideration of bind over (to keep the peace). If refused by the defendant, they are not sentenced for breaching the peace but instead found in contempt of court and sentenced for that instead.
It is most commonly used (and very rarely even then nowadays) at domestics where POA doesn’t apply, no other offences such as assault or damage are disclosed but the parties need to be separated or offences are likely to happen (a breach of the peace).
It’s very often misused and threatened/used against the wrong party when it’s used in public as it is often misunderstood.
Other than that I completely agree that being visibly Jewish is not and can not be a provocation. I’m glad that (eventually) a full and appropriate apology has been made.
Being visibly jewish isnt a provocation unless you are antisemetic. Which we are told these marches arent. Why then would a protestor be aggravated by the presence of a jew?
GOOD QUESTION!!
AND THANKFULLY THE BRAVE POLICEMAN STEPPED IN BEFORE WE FOUND OUT IF ANY OF THE PROTESTERS - INCLUDING THE JEWISH PROTESTERS - WERE AGGRAVATED BY THE PRESENCE OF A JEW!!
BUT I THINK WE SHOULD DEFINITELY ASSUME THAT THE PROTESTERS - INCLUDING THE JEWISH PROTESTERS - WOULD HAVE TORN HIM LIMB FROM LIMB!!
OK, still looking for your gotcha. Good luck to you. Let us know when you want an informed discussion about the scope of the power of arrest in relation to bop.
No-one is saying this particular officer got it right. He probably knew the law but he couldn't express it properly and he was probably making the wrong judgment call on it anyway. But... you came steaming into this thread full of indignation and prejudice - "just another ignorant woodentop" when you are the one who is actually completely ignorant of the relevant law.
I asked if you are a lawyer because this stuff is Criminal Law 101.
I know this guy. Nice chap but not the brightest and a bit of a lost soul, worked for his dad for a while but has allowed himself to drift into becoming a professional offence seeker I think because of his personal sad-ish circumstances. Prodigiously one-eyed, as the emotionally-invested often are. As his mates have pointed out, Aldwych is quite a walk from the synagogue he was at and is not on his way home.
The problem with millennials and social media is them not understanding it cuts both ways, as indeed do most things in life. And professional offence taker is exactly right. Save us from this plague of bullshit. Enough is enough.
To mix metaphors, seeking the scalp of the Commissioner is a poison chalice
A normal system is meant to accommodate this kind of situation
No one got beaten, no one got sentenced, no one is unable to walk the streets of London (unless you count professional offence takers seeking out flash points or dumb situations that the police then try to manager with limited resources and fecking notably without routine use of water cannon or guns )
I know this guy. Nice chap but not the brightest and a bit of a lost soul, worked for his dad for a while but has allowed himself to drift into becoming a professional offence seeker I think because of his personal sad-ish circumstances. Prodigiously one-eyed, as the emotionally-invested often are. As his mates have pointed out, Aldwych is quite a walk from the synagogue he was at and is not on his way home.
Emotionally invested, that's the thing isn't it. All perspective, all ability to separate out the issues, gone.
I wonder if at some point he'll go "Shit, maybe I just made things worse".
Are the dynamics remotely comparable? Is the EDL thug remotely likely to start a fight with a young girl? What were the numbers involved? Was the situation as potentially inflammable. Were there young children in the march?
Do you actually think this is a resignation issue. It was only at that point I joined the debate. And it’s an unnecessary distraction from an ongoing source of discord.
Get the right people talking not the wrong people staring each other down.
I don’t think it’s a resignation issue for the police officer, but I do think he needs some training.
There may be mitigating factors which mean the situation is different, but every person is free to walk around anywhere looking as they do holding up a sign saying an organisation proscribed as a terrorist group by Parliament as a terrorist group, whether or not some khvnts nearby might not like it. And victim blaming the person doing it is distasteful.
As I say, there always has to be a “but”. There isn’t a but here.
Face; it seems implied from ^^^^ that we agree that the officer mispoke but a. It doesn’t deserve the overheated social media reaction about UK Policing and their interactions with the Jewish community b. The Met police are trying to manage this in good faith and c. this doesn’t come close to a resignation issue for the Commissioner.
a) I think it’s proportionate reaction given open racism towards anyone by the Police should be stamped out and if anyone had been told they were being openly black and so provocative anywhere would have had a similar size reaction
b) i don’t think anyone can look at the first and then hastily corrected apologies could conclude the Met are acting in good faith reasonably
Occam have you actually read the story that prompted your comment.
You say you dont think it a resignation issue for the police officer.
It is not the at scene police officer for whom there are calls for resignation. It's the met commissioner. This is being blown out of all proportion. It is a dis-service to the wider issue.
If I can say it as a Jew, why can you not see it as a non Jew.
I’ve not read about the resignation issue as I’ve been away for my birthday with friends the weekend and have ignored everything else.
I can have an opinion on this and all other matters which is as valid as anyone else’s, notwithstanding their religion or belief (including non-belief).
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Police Officer was wrong. I've seen plenty of Jews participating in protests holding up signs saying "Not In Our Name" or "Jews against Genocide".
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Shame the policeman was too concise. If he’d said “These loonies will have your kippah off you just for starters, sir” the heil would have to look elsewhere. The rest of what he said sounds sensible in the context of the new laws. Any public order act experts in? I can’t hear you.
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The rise in anti-Semitism in the UK, USA and other apparent human rights respecting countries has been shocking
And cheered on by various Hamas (a terrorist group) supporting people
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Can’t have people walking round Aldwych who are openly Jewish. It’s a slippery slope to letting other races walk on the streets of london too
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Just another ignorant woodentop.
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It’s a disgrace
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And on the other thread people are wondering why an MP didn’t bother to report a crime to the plod.
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Davos202119 Apr 24 06:45
The rise in anti-Semitism in the UK, USA and other apparent human rights respecting countries has been shocking
___________________________________________________________________________________
wh'd have thought that conservative governments pushing constant division and hate would be a bad thing eh?
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Hmm, Sumo if you think that the blatant, shameless anti-Semitism seen on the streets (and college campuses) of the US and the UK is coming from the right wing conservatives you have your head truly in the clouds.
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General but necessary reminder not to conflate pro-Palestinian protests with anti-Semitism.
We all know anti-semitism exists. As does Islamophobia. I can only go by my experience of attending the London protests and they’ve been largely peaceful, with Jewish and Muslim protesters walking side by side.
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What do you do when you see people with anti semitic posters?
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Plenty of Hamas flags and anti-Semitic flags in the last one I saw (granted this was 2 months ago so may now be absolutely fine....)
I say plenty, I mean like 1-3%
Which is more than plenty
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“largely peaceful”
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Ask for them back.
Chill out! It's a joke!
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Lol, this tired old dishonest dodge again. Give it up, you're continuing to do untold harm to the efforts by those who are actually concerned about genuine anti-semitism, and want what's best for the State and people of Israel.
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Guilty Heh at 3d
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Anti semitism in the UK has increased since last October. Even our insipid police “service” will tell you that
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It's pretty tedious.
Anti Israel marches for the most part are free of incident and only a tiny proportion of behaviour could be regarded as antisemetic.
Reminds me when Margaret Hodge compared being disciplined by Corbyn for being a gobshite to her parents' fear of being taken to a concentration camp in Nazi Germany.
No Margaret. They're not the same.
Is Dalek trolling or does he genuinely believe the crap he posts about?
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wilfredrostron19 Apr 24 09:08
Hmm, Sumo if you think that the blatant, shameless anti-Semitism seen on the streets (and college campuses) of the US and the UK is coming from the right wing conservatives you have your head truly in the clouds.
_________________________________________________________________________________
you think demonising anyone not "indigineous" throwing around phrases like "enemies of the people" and constantly chanting take back control don't have any consqequence?
how many of those anit semitic people grew up under the full force of UK conservativism?
maybe instead of divide and conquer pushing everyone into stupid camps HMG should have tried a bit of unite and lead
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Anti semitism in the UK has increased since last October. Even our insipid police “service” will tell you that
----
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-68374372.amp
Anti miuslim hatred tripled. Who cares though. Highlighting anti muslim hatred doesn't advance the pro Israel agenda.
TBC hatred of any kind is not ok. But the Israel meat shields are weaponising antisemetisn again. To help smooth the path of the genocide of Palestinian Muslims. 🤷🏾♂️
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Grey Area19 Apr 24 09:42
“largely peaceful”
---
What's the solution here? Unless the demo can be guaranteed to be 100% peaceful it should not be allowed too go ahead? Or as soon as a single incident occurs the whole demo should be dispersed/banned?
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It is appalling. Why give in to mob rule? If a jewish man cannot walk freely on public streets and cannot even plot his weekend route to avoid known demonstration routes (because those routes change every week then he is not free to walk around London which cannot be right.
Our breach of the peace law has always been utterly dreadful in my view as it relies on the reaction of others even if those others have terrible view eg that women should not show their knees in public. Yet to show my knees in other places is not going to cause a breach because I am among normal ordinary Britons.
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Lydia- that man can walk freely on public streets and go wherever he wants on the weekend. The police were being silly.
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TBC hatred of any kind is not ok. But the Israel meat shields are weaponising antisemetisn again. To help smooth the path of the genocide of Palestinian Muslims.
This.
Weaponising anti-semitism is a huge disservice to Jewish people. Now when one hears yet another knee jerk facile accusation of anti-semitism, it garners nothing more than eye-roll.
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This wasnt knee jerk anti-semitism.
This was a Met sgt telling a jewish man that he couldnt go where he wanted to because he was openly jewish and that antagonised the palestinians.
We are forever being told that these protests arent anti-jewish but this kind of thing suggests otherwise. Threatening a jew with arrest for breach of the peace because hes jewish is disgusting.
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"Jews can go where they want in london
Just not there
Or there
Oh and give that one a miss as well"
Trivialising the issue is a big problem
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I'm tired of seeing muslims treated as second in line for protection from discrimination and hate crimes.
Back in the Corbyn era, the media was awash with stories of antisemetisn in the Labour party like we w but one step away from Nazi Germany and the ruling Tory Party was awash with anti muslim behaviour called out by Baroness Warsi. Bit it wasn't politically expedient to make it national news. Getting Corbyn out was, so antisemetisn stories were big news
Now all I see are articles about anti Jewish sentiment because Israel is in the news on public trial for genocide.
Totally accept my opinion on the balance of reporting of late is not backed by any study but it's not a big leap too suggest that
1: the UK is besties with Israel so the antisemetisn line is helpful
2. It's accepted wisdom amongst the chattering classes that Muslims are a fifth column. Three dinner party test etc
So therefore antijewisg hatred is being elevated into public consciousness.
I'm not Muslim foad
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It's all a conspiracy!
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lol sumo you are legit fooking stupid. Monomania
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My view doesn't depend on conspiracy. It's just the natural interplay of various interests that produce results like this.
But if it helps you to dismiss the argument to say it is - well I can't stop you!
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The law is an ass. Wot Lydia said.
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Far too much of our behaviour these days is judged according to how some snowflake other feels. Grow a fvcking pair you melts, you’re making yourselves redundant.
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ANYONE WHO WANTS ISRAEL TO STOP KILLING PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS IS A VILE ANTI-SEMITE AND SHOUULD BE THOROUGHLY ASHAMED!!
THOSE "PROTESTS" - OR AS I PREFER TO CALL THEM "ANTI-SEMITIC HATE MARCHES" - ARE ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING!!
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If the presence of a jewish man is going to antagonise those on the march, because he is visibly jewish then it is an anti-semetic hate march.
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YES!!
THE ACTIONS OF THIS POLICEMAN HAVE PROVEN BEYOND ALL DOUBT THAT THIS PROTEST HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS OF DEAD PALESTINIAN CHILDREN, THE WHOLE THING WAS REALLY AN ANTI-SEMITIC HATE MARCH!!
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I've an experience of this and I knew not to attract attention to myself.
One Saturday sitting in a pub in Shepherds Bush, a QPR crowd suddenly filled the pub on their way to a match. It was rammed full and they were singing their songs when they burst into "No surrender to the IRA"
My buddy thinking he was funny turned to me and said "it's your round mate"... "you can fvk off an all!" was my response, if they heard my accent I'd probably have been torn apart.
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Brexitbrexit missing the point. Shame there isnt a way to block posters.
Would you be ok with the copper threatening to arrest a man for being black?
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WELL IF THE COPPER DID THIS THEN I WOULD ALSO BLAME THE MARCHERS FOR IT, YES, EVEN IF THE MARCHERS INCLUDED BLACK MEN AMONG THEOR NUMBER
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I WOULD ALSO INSIST THAT THE COPPER’S ACTIONS PROVED THAT ALL OF THE MARCHERS - INCLUDING THE BLACK MARCHERS - WERE OUT MARCHING BECAUSE OF THEIR HATRED OF BLACK PEOPLE, IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT THE MARCHERS MIGHT CLAIM ARE THEIR ACTUAL REASONS FOR MARCHING
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Heh.
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This police man seems to have been more afraid of how some of the marchers may react to an 'openly Jewish' person, than of how the presence of this person may upset the marchers. He wants to avoid violent confrontations and protect this Jewish man.
Wrong decisions based on bad assumptions in my opinion, but we can't expect all police officers to always take the most appropriate actions in every situation. It's not easy being a fair and neutral police officer these days. It's hardly impossible to not unnecessarily upset any party.
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Nothing neutral about how that copper acted. He was wearing sergeant stripes so should be experienced.
You cannot threaten someone with breach of the peace for being openly jewish.
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I'm sure you can if you have their safety in mind especially if that person is determined to provoke a response.
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You cant.
Public Order Act:
Any person who in any public place or at any public meeting uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or whereby a breach of the peace is likely to be occasioned, shall be guilty of an offence.
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Wombo, Isn't that s5 of the 1936 act, which has been repealed?
Not sure what currently constitutes a BOTP, but maybe instructive to look at this:
https://www.college.police.uk/app/public-order-public-safety/legal-framework-and-legislation
"Police action should target the persons responsible for the breach of the peace. Action taken that is not directed at the person committing the breach will generally be unlawful.
The guiding principle is that lawful conduct will rarely, if ever, be other than reasonable. Conversely, a violent reaction to the lawful conduct of others will rarely, if ever, be other than wholly unreasonable.
Where there is a reasonable belief that there are no other means to prevent a breach of the peace, the lawful exercise by innocent third parties of their rights may be restricted by the police. This is a test of necessity, which can only be justified in truly extreme and exceptional circumstances.
Before the police can take any steps that restrict the lawful exercise of rights by innocent third parties in any way, they must take all other possible steps – including making proper and advance preparations – to ensure that the breach, or imminent breach, is prevented and that the rights of third parties are protected."
So an innocent party can be arrested to prevent the commission of a BOTP by others. Interesting to see whether the Met thought that these were " truly extreme and exceptional circumstances" and whether all possible steps really had been taken to protect his rights before they threatened him with arrest.
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Sorry, youre quite right. The current legislation is the criminal justice and public order act.
A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—
(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.
So being jewish is still not really enough. The guidance says that a lawful excercixe may be restricted, not that an innocent man can be arrested. Two different things.
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Isn’t his kippah the visible representation which the marchers might find insulting? It’s a stretch but look at the state of these communities. Plus plod obvs and rightly wanted to avoid anything kicking off. Plus the guy is a campaigner and I reckon was trying to test the law. “I was exercising my right to walk around my home city as a Jewish Londoner. ”
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You quote repealed legislation and, when corrected, still seem to be under the impression that breach of the peace itself is an offence.
How do you restricted lawful exercise of the man's right to cross the street through a mass demonstration, except by arresting him ? What do you think arrest means in the context of preventing a breach of the peace ?
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he should have just stopped being a jew, then plod would be happy
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Is being "quite openly Jewish" in the UK the same or a worse offence as "running while Black" is in the USA?
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Wondering what levels of interaction and insights you all actually have with/into Jewish & Muslim communities because you’re all sure sounding like experts.
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Disgraceful how this hasn’t tunned with condemnation. Clearly an anti semitic board
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Rare agree with risky but not board generally
Just certain posters
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My god, read the first ‘apology’ from the met. They are their true views
Met Police apologises for 'openly Jewish' comment https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68856360
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I got the cirminal legislation wrong, fair enough. But then that was a quick google. i then quoted the correct legislation.
Tell me eeyore, how do you arrest someone that hasnt committed an offence? the copper was wrong in every single way.
Being visibly jewish isnt a provocation unless you are antisemetic. Which we are told these marches arent. Why then would a protestor be aggravated by the presence of a jew?
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Breach of the peace is not part of the public order act (what you quoted was S4 of the POA - an offence that was not mentioned). It is not an offence you can be charged with but a common law power of police to arrest and, if required (without charging) bring before the bench for consideration of bind over (to keep the peace). If refused by the defendant, they are not sentenced for breaching the peace but instead found in contempt of court and sentenced for that instead.
It is most commonly used (and very rarely even then nowadays) at domestics where POA doesn’t apply, no other offences such as assault or damage are disclosed but the parties need to be separated or offences are likely to happen (a breach of the peace).
It’s very often misused and threatened/used against the wrong party when it’s used in public as it is often misunderstood.
Other than that I completely agree that being visibly Jewish is not and can not be a provocation. I’m glad that (eventually) a full and appropriate apology has been made.
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GOOD QUESTION!!
AND THANKFULLY THE BRAVE POLICEMAN STEPPED IN BEFORE WE FOUND OUT IF ANY OF THE PROTESTERS - INCLUDING THE JEWISH PROTESTERS - WERE AGGRAVATED BY THE PRESENCE OF A JEW!!
BUT I THINK WE SHOULD DEFINITELY ASSUME THAT THE PROTESTERS - INCLUDING THE JEWISH PROTESTERS - WOULD HAVE TORN HIM LIMB FROM LIMB!!
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Jim, does the original event, and the original ‘apology’, pretty much demonstrate why todays police force is totally useless?
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the first and the second apology were terrible. the plod need a better comms department.
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What sort of PR professional wants to work for the police when there are so many piss easy corporate jibs paying well for doing fvck all?
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Jibs is about right tbf
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No you didn't , because as Jim says it's a power derived from the common law, not statute.
If Jim's post isn't enough, please just go and read up on breach of the peace.
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No you tell me how you can arrest someone that isnt committing an offence.
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If you have reasonable grounds to suspect they are committing or will commit a breach of the peace. It’s an odd one granted but still used.
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And whats the breach of the peace bit.
Can it ever be being visibly jewish?
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The answer is, it cannot.
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See my last paragraph in my first post. Same applies for bop as for provocation.
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Wombat - are you a lawyer ?
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Jim, can being visibly jewish ever be a breach of the peace. Its a simple question.
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eeyore, eat a bag of dicks.
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No. It’s a simple answer. Should suit you.
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OK, still looking for your gotcha. Good luck to you. Let us know when you want an informed discussion about the scope of the power of arrest in relation to bop.
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Not looking for a gotcha.
You cannot threaten to nick someone for being visibly jewish. Its that simple.
If you think that sgt's actions were acceptable, you need a word with yourself.
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FFS.
No-one is saying this particular officer got it right. He probably knew the law but he couldn't express it properly and he was probably making the wrong judgment call on it anyway. But... you came steaming into this thread full of indignation and prejudice - "just another ignorant woodentop" when you are the one who is actually completely ignorant of the relevant law.
I asked if you are a lawyer because this stuff is Criminal Law 101.
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He is an ignorant copper. hes the one thats meant to know this stuff.
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He probably knew the law? the bearded cvnt made it up as he was going along.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4n19j892neo
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I know this guy. Nice chap but not the brightest and a bit of a lost soul, worked for his dad for a while but has allowed himself to drift into becoming a professional offence seeker I think because of his personal sad-ish circumstances. Prodigiously one-eyed, as the emotionally-invested often are. As his mates have pointed out, Aldwych is quite a walk from the synagogue he was at and is not on his way home.
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As I was saying.
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The problem with millennials and social media is them not understanding it cuts both ways, as indeed do most things in life. And professional offence taker is exactly right. Save us from this plague of bullshit. Enough is enough.
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Wow threep, have you considered a career in the met?
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Also, millennials and their “Wow”.
Grow up.
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Or, better still, just fvkc off.
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Exactly what Cookie said
To mix metaphors, seeking the scalp of the Commissioner is a poison chalice
A normal system is meant to accommodate this kind of situation
No one got beaten, no one got sentenced, no one is unable to walk the streets of London (unless you count professional offence takers seeking out flash points or dumb situations that the police then try to manager with limited resources and fecking notably without routine use of water cannon or guns )
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Wow. No one got sentenced. That’s your bar then asti?
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Obviously not, dalek
Let us know when you’re ready to actually engage on this
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DISGRACEFUL!!
HOW DARE YOU CALL HIM A PROFESSIONAL OFFENCE SEEKER!!
REPORTED!!
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‘Wow’. The right are such ❄️
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I’m a Jew if you haven’t noticed.
This appears to have been a contrived incident.
Some obviously clumsy language from a copper trying to prevent a confrontation is not cause for anyone’s resignation.
Not every incident warrants dissection to demonstrate prejudice. Trouble is never far away. You don’t have to manufacture it.
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Oh the millennials are free to manufacture trouble. See Rof passim. And the grownups are free to despatch them to impecunious oblivion.
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Emotionally invested, that's the thing isn't it. All perspective, all ability to separate out the issues, gone.
I wonder if at some point he'll go "Shit, maybe I just made things worse".
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Predicable the usual crowd couldn’t just say “thats clearly wrong and terrible”.
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Remember this photo? It was a brilliant moment
Imagine if the PSO in the background threatened her with arrest for being openly Jewish at an EDL march.
And imagine thinking “maybe one day she’ll reflect on things and think she made it worse”.
Absolute state of you.
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*openly brown
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That’s a lovely moment to see Occam. Granted.
Are the dynamics remotely comparable? Is the EDL thug remotely likely to start a fight with a young girl? What were the numbers involved? Was the situation as potentially inflammable. Were there young children in the march?
Do you actually think this is a resignation issue. It was only at that point I joined the debate. And it’s an unnecessary distraction from an ongoing source of discord.
Get the right people talking not the wrong people staring each other down.
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I don’t think it’s a resignation issue for the police officer, but I do think he needs some training.
There may be mitigating factors which mean the situation is different, but every person is free to walk around anywhere looking as they do holding up a sign saying an organisation proscribed as a terrorist group by Parliament as a terrorist group, whether or not some khvnts nearby might not like it. And victim blaming the person doing it is distasteful.
As I say, there always has to be a “but”. There isn’t a but here.
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Face; it seems implied from ^^^^ that we agree that the officer mispoke but a. It doesn’t deserve the overheated social media reaction about UK Policing and their interactions with the Jewish community b. The Met police are trying to manage this in good faith and c. this doesn’t come close to a resignation issue for the Commissioner.
Ok with that?
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a) I think it’s proportionate reaction given open racism towards anyone by the Police should be stamped out and if anyone had been told they were being openly black and so provocative anywhere would have had a similar size reaction
b) i don’t think anyone can look at the first and then hastily corrected apologies could conclude the Met are acting in good faith reasonably
c) agreed
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Occam have you actually read the story that prompted your comment.
You say you dont think it a resignation issue for the police officer.
It is not the at scene police officer for whom there are calls for resignation. It's the met commissioner. This is being blown out of all proportion. It is a dis-service to the wider issue.
If I can say it as a Jew, why can you not see it as a non Jew.
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I’ve not read about the resignation issue as I’ve been away for my birthday with friends the weekend and have ignored everything else.
I can have an opinion on this and all other matters which is as valid as anyone else’s, notwithstanding their religion or belief (including non-belief).
Join the discussion