Why is this tolerated? I am all in favour of free speech but the double standard on the approach to this compared to the hair trigger bannings on some other issues is very, very noticeable.
Wang- would “virtually every Jew hates Muslims” be anti-Semitic? If so, then yes we can safely say that “virtually every Muslim hates Jews” is Islamophobic.
Op - Islam says I'm born inferior to you (oh no no not inferior just DIFFERENT women are differently special just not household heads OBVIOUSLY and separate OBVIOUSLY). Even where you are women get lifted by the police for being raped outside marriage. Like. Get a better hobby horse.
Rham- do you even Muslim? How many Muslim acquaintances do you have? What are you basing your crap on? Tribal Muslims in north Waziristan? Because you know in the Muslim world they are the equivalent of the inbred hillbillies of the US Deep South? Not representative.
What honeybun said, ffs clergh. You should see what the radical end of Orthodox Judaism has to say about that stuff. Neither is representative of the mainstream views of the majority of those within the culture.
Davos - tolerated by the mods for sure. A similar post claiming that virtually all black people hated white people would be gone and the poster banned PDQ.
Sorry are you saying women AREN'T arrested for being raped in the UAE? That's some commitment to lying.
For a long time there was discomfort about calling it out but I think that's passed now. People won't be embarrassed out of critique by "you don't UNDERSTAND".
"The Qur'an states that men are in charge of women because God has favored one over the other and they are responsible to provide them. Women, however, are given a degree of autonomy over their own income and property" 😍 aw fanks
A fair critique that a secular person doesn't gaf what an ancient creed says (see eg people who do Christmas but no other bibling) but then you're an atheist or agnostic, not religious.
Rham - you are significantly out of date on the legislative position where I am. It is extremely hard to see how a rape victim would end up being arrested in the UAE now.
As for the other stuff does Love, honour and obey ring any bells?
As is fairly well known, if you’ve been sensible enough to amass a stock of usernames (eg to register great pun-names you want to stop others getting their mits on) then you hold the power of THREE CLICK POST DELETE. I promise to levy this on any Islamophobia I sight.
Victorian patriarchy was great, would be good to achieve such a setup today.
A staff would be good - I mean domestic help, not a wizard-style magical waking stick, although I’d happily take Gandalf’s style facial-hair wise. Heavy wool suits properly cut, too hat and a massive beard that smells vaguely of steam train. Ding ding
‘Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife…’
Among other things. Pointing out sexist statements in religious texts that are many hundreds of years old is not some amazing ‘Gotcha’ nor generally speaking is it reflective of the beliefs of a modern follower of that religion.
I obv didn’t say obey or marry in a church because I married a Jew and the only time Nev has ever come to an Anglican church I was told he was allowed in as long as he wasn’t ‘disruptive’
Clive - sex where neither party is married is no longer a crime. Adultery (for both sexes) is still a crime but the only person who can initiate proceedings is the husband or wife of the adulterous person.
It's totally hilarious classic Labour from the 90s to insist that the Bible is relevant to life for anyone in anything like the same way. Sure everyone was equally sexist in year 0 I expect. It's not year 0 any more.
Hard agree Clergs. When I took Nev to the service the ridiculousness of the bible was 🥴. The sermon was tales of Jews from 2k years ago and then discussing screen time in Highgate
Clerghs - it’s different for different people in different places. There are plenty of Americans (for example) for whom the bible has much more direct impact on their beliefs, life and how they behave that the Quran does on a secular minded Muslim living in London. It’s almost like it is dangerous to generalize eh?
Clergham I know a few practising Christians my age (early 30s) and all of them that I can think of have at one time or other admitted 'husband is head of the family' type beliefs.
Perfectly common still, they just don't have control of the state-violence-monopoly as they do in other states (primarily muslim).
What clergs and Wilfred said on the other thread yesterday.
To see a bunch of so-called liberals defending what is patriarchal, homophobic, anti-Semitic and sexist is deeply worrying. Many of you need to get your head out of the sand. It is not “phobic” to dislike something that is antithetical to the values system we have spent 200 years cultivating in this country. A values system that is the pinnacle of intellectual thought and has birthed fundamental rights et al.
I will stop the criticism, it’s obviously pointless here anyway, and I don’t want to needlessly upset people - apologies.
The Good People who think (or pretend to think) that literally any position which doesn’t accord with their own is anti-Semitic (even if actually specifically condemning Hamas) are of course (by their own standards) guilty of Islamophobia.
(PS I don’t think the majority of those people actually are Islamophobic just as I don’t think the majority of people who advocate for a free Palestine are anti-Semitic).
RR draws an apt analogy with the anti-trans frothers.
My dad still wins the award for ‘disruptive’ on this front. He and my mum couldn’t get married in the Catholic Church because during the pre marriage meeting with the priest he uttered the line (apparently deadpan and without anger) ‘oh fvck off father that’s b*ll*cks.’ What it was in response to is sadly lost to the mists of time.
To see a bunch of so-called liberals defending what is patriarchal, homophobic, anti-Semitic and sexist is deeply worrying
Neither you nor Clergham seem able to distinguish between "thinking it's bad that Israel is bombing civilians in Gaza" and "wholeheartedly endorsing everything about Islam". Clergham's bone-headed commentary about choosing a "team" was a great example of this. If you want to win some kind of clash of civilizations, the very first thing you need to do is improve your PR. Sending jets to bomb schools is not doing anything in that regard.
Yeh sorry Chimp that simply wasn’t me. I was one of the first to note that this whole debacle would get a shitload of innocent Palestinians killed and for what it’s worth, I think it’s disgusting what Israel has been doing to Gaza.
This doesn’t change the fact of what I said above. It’s more than possible to hold those two things in your head and think to yourself “both of these things are bad and this whole situation is just fooked”.
All of the major religions are inherently sexist, and often racist, because they're based on very old world views, there are no real winners on that score.
We should be wary of people who view words written even 100s of years ago, as anything other than historical interest. If you think words written 1000s years ago should be followed literally in a modern world, you are batshit.
Re teams - you are a man, the world is your team. In the vast majority of the Muslim world (including secularish places like turkey) I simply cannot function freely.
So yeah I have a team. My team that doesn't treat me as automatically less because of my sex.
So yeah I have a team. My team that doesn't treat me as automatically less because of my sex.
Yes, and Israel won't ever attack you so who cares about civilians in Gaza - I know your views. What I'm trying to tell you is that "picking a team" and then supporting them unconditionally is counterproductive because it enables "your team" to do things that actually reduce their chance of winning. That's exactly what is happening with Israel now. People telling them they have carte blanche because they are liberal and secular and so on is going to lead to a diminution of their status and influence and blot their copybook for years to come. Try to grasp this.
“You don't think the balance of power in the middle east is relevant outside the middle east?”
Gotta be honest, I think its relevance is massively overstated.
People have been predicting the middle east to start WW3 for years and the reason it never has is that properly powerful countries don’t see it as first tier relevant. Don’t see much evidence
No welsh chapel in my lot Xennial. The whole puritan thing is not really our style… Despite my father’s best efforts I was baptised by the papists so according to them at least they have the best claim on my soul.
So OB, in light of your above posts and just so I’m clear- what is your basis exactly for being so pro-Israel (and v Islamophobic) in the current conflict? Is it as simple as being married to a Jewish person? Because Jewish values don’t support genocide and slaughtering of innocents, so a tad confused where you are coming from…
We still have freedom of speech in the UK. I have always supported Israel (I am Christian, white British) . It is the only democracy in the Middle East. Go and compare it with Iran and Saudi and tell me they are better...... However the UK has chosen to import a lot of people whose views are homophobic and sexist and anti Jewish - silly UK.
As regards taking a team I am happy to take a team: the team of moderates who don’t want to kill people.
I haven’t actually seen any of those people being interviewed on Sky, BBC, Al Jazeera but I assume there must be a handful of them around in the levant. They are my team. We shouldn’t accept the false choice.
Sorry hotnow, unless you can applaud absolutely everything the Israeli state does to the civilians of Gaza, useful idiots and simpletons will call you an anti-Semite, I don’t make the rules
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Haven't seen any of this. Examples?
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*aside from there likes of risky, ebitda, cuckercorn etc whose output is a general amalgamation of bigotry of every type and is not tolerated
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Lemonade Bluebottle21 Oct 23 16:31
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Given the virtually every muslim will hate jews, and there are a lot of them in London, it demonstrably does.
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"Given the virtually every muslim will hate jews"
Heh @ complaining about islamophobia by posting this
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Eh? I was asked for an example so I cut and pasted one.
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Wang- would “virtually every Jew hates Muslims” be anti-Semitic? If so, then yes we can safely say that “virtually every Muslim hates Jews” is Islamophobic.
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honeybun m7, i think that’s wang’s point. it is islamophobic
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I apologise catty, your pasting skills make it look as if the second para is your own comment
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donny m7, ur issue was ur 4matting. it looks like that final para is ur comment, not a quote
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He should have read that book by Liz Truss on punctuation 😉
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I apologise Wang as I misunderstood- I did think that was out of character for you x
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Oh I see. Soz for the confusion!
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every1 in a much more accommod7ing mood this morning 😃
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😁
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I would say this it an islamaphobic comment
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I mean the copied and pasted text above
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Errm yes of course it is an Islamophobic comment.
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Op - Islam says I'm born inferior to you (oh no no not inferior just DIFFERENT women are differently special just not household heads OBVIOUSLY and separate OBVIOUSLY). Even where you are women get lifted by the police for being raped outside marriage. Like. Get a better hobby horse.
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Is it tolerated though? The very fact many are calling it out suggest it is not tolerated
Reminds me of the old trans debates, as soon as you called out transphobia, you were told you hated women
Was an odd time
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Rham- do you even Muslim? How many Muslim acquaintances do you have? What are you basing your crap on? Tribal Muslims in north Waziristan? Because you know in the Muslim world they are the equivalent of the inbred hillbillies of the US Deep South? Not representative.
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Yea the shutting down of debate by transphobes with the old 'tHEn yOU MuSt hATe wiMMeN' switcheroo argument was rof's most tedious dead end.
"I don't think it's particularly helpful to call trans women 'penis people'"
"thEn yOU hATE aLl WImmIn!!!!1"
Feels quite familiar to when anyone tries to make the point that civilians in Gaza probably shouldn't be obliterated, especially the kids.
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Ever heard of the "chosen people" clergs
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What honeybun said, ffs clergh. You should see what the radical end of Orthodox Judaism has to say about that stuff. Neither is representative of the mainstream views of the majority of those within the culture.
Davos - tolerated by the mods for sure. A similar post claiming that virtually all black people hated white people would be gone and the poster banned PDQ.
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Sorry are you saying women AREN'T arrested for being raped in the UAE? That's some commitment to lying.
For a long time there was discomfort about calling it out but I think that's passed now. People won't be embarrassed out of critique by "you don't UNDERSTAND".
"The Qur'an states that men are in charge of women because God has favored one over the other and they are responsible to provide them. Women, however, are given a degree of autonomy over their own income and property" 😍 aw fanks
A fair critique that a secular person doesn't gaf what an ancient creed says (see eg people who do Christmas but no other bibling) but then you're an atheist or agnostic, not religious.
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If you think it's not a sexist belief system you've really lost it.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/dubai-woman-arrested-gang-rape-uae…
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Rham - you are significantly out of date on the legislative position where I am. It is extremely hard to see how a rape victim would end up being arrested in the UAE now.
As for the other stuff does Love, honour and obey ring any bells?
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Oh yeah and where's princess latifa these days? Iirc she's totally fine and it was all a big misunderstanding?
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As is fairly well known, if you’ve been sensible enough to amass a stock of usernames (eg to register great pun-names you want to stop others getting their mits on) then you hold the power of THREE CLICK POST DELETE. I promise to levy this on any Islamophobia I sight.
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Seems that with other right minded people I have now succeeded in flushing that atrocious little turd from Lemonade Bluebottle off the board.
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I don't know anyone who has promised to love, honour and obey. That was weird by the time my parents got married.
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I guess I forget that Donnie has a fundamentally Victorian patriarch domestic arrangement himself.
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Donny how has the law changed in Dubai now?
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my wife said love honour and obey
its just tradition, who cares about the literal meaning of the words
my anglican church wedding was the first time I’d been to an anglican church service (other than someone else’s wedding) in maybe 15yrs
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Victorian patriarchy was great, would be good to achieve such a setup today.
A staff would be good - I mean domestic help, not a wizard-style magical waking stick, although I’d happily take Gandalf’s style facial-hair wise. Heavy wool suits properly cut, too hat and a massive beard that smells vaguely of steam train. Ding ding
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I thought both parties promise to love honour and obey each other? I certainly did.
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Well clerghs the Bible says.
‘Wives submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife…’
Among other things. Pointing out sexist statements in religious texts that are many hundreds of years old is not some amazing ‘Gotcha’ nor generally speaking is it reflective of the beliefs of a modern follower of that religion.
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Heh, no Jim they most definitely did not. I am guessing your wife was in charge of finalizing the vows in your case! 😂
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What Clergs said on this thread
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Maybe I’m misremembering but I thought the vows were mutual?
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Heh Donny - she organised, I turned up and did as I was told. Start they “obey” part early was my view.
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I obv didn’t say obey or marry in a church because I married a Jew and the only time Nev has ever come to an Anglican church I was told he was allowed in as long as he wasn’t ‘disruptive’
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The bible says: women, know your limits
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Clive - sex where neither party is married is no longer a crime. Adultery (for both sexes) is still a crime but the only person who can initiate proceedings is the husband or wife of the adulterous person.
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And gay sex...?
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It's totally hilarious classic Labour from the 90s to insist that the Bible is relevant to life for anyone in anything like the same way. Sure everyone was equally sexist in year 0 I expect. It's not year 0 any more.
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Hard agree Clergs. When I took Nev to the service the ridiculousness of the bible was 🥴. The sermon was tales of Jews from 2k years ago and then discussing screen time in Highgate
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It was embarrassing.
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Labour were great in the 90s, as they are now
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Clerghs - it’s different for different people in different places. There are plenty of Americans (for example) for whom the bible has much more direct impact on their beliefs, life and how they behave that the Quran does on a secular minded Muslim living in London. It’s almost like it is dangerous to generalize eh?
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VERY SENSIBLE ADVICE, THE HUSBAND SHOULD OF COURSE BE TREATED AS THE LORD AND A GOOD WIFE IS A SUBMISSIVE WIFE!!
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OB - was he disruptive!
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Clergham I know a few practising Christians my age (early 30s) and all of them that I can think of have at one time or other admitted 'husband is head of the family' type beliefs.
Perfectly common still, they just don't have control of the state-violence-monopoly as they do in other states (primarily muslim).
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Heh chuckling to imagine the vicar frowning over screen time as Nev chucks over a table and shouts IS THIS A PLACE OF GOD OR A GENIUS BAR???
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What clergs and Wilfred said on the other thread yesterday.
To see a bunch of so-called liberals defending what is patriarchal, homophobic, anti-Semitic and sexist is deeply worrying. Many of you need to get your head out of the sand. It is not “phobic” to dislike something that is antithetical to the values system we have spent 200 years cultivating in this country. A values system that is the pinnacle of intellectual thought and has birthed fundamental rights et al.
I will stop the criticism, it’s obviously pointless here anyway, and I don’t want to needlessly upset people - apologies.
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So you're in favour of fundamental human rights now LB?
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heh, we have a prize shitetalker in residence, people:
“A values system that is the pinnacle of intellectual thought and has birthed fundamental rights et al.”
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The Good People who think (or pretend to think) that literally any position which doesn’t accord with their own is anti-Semitic (even if actually specifically condemning Hamas) are of course (by their own standards) guilty of Islamophobia.
(PS I don’t think the majority of those people actually are Islamophobic just as I don’t think the majority of people who advocate for a free Palestine are anti-Semitic).
RR draws an apt analogy with the anti-trans frothers.
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My dad still wins the award for ‘disruptive’ on this front. He and my mum couldn’t get married in the Catholic Church because during the pre marriage meeting with the priest he uttered the line (apparently deadpan and without anger) ‘oh fvck off father that’s b*ll*cks.’ What it was in response to is sadly lost to the mists of time.
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Neither you nor Clergham seem able to distinguish between "thinking it's bad that Israel is bombing civilians in Gaza" and "wholeheartedly endorsing everything about Islam". Clergham's bone-headed commentary about choosing a "team" was a great example of this. If you want to win some kind of clash of civilizations, the very first thing you need to do is improve your PR. Sending jets to bomb schools is not doing anything in that regard.
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Yeh sorry Chimp that simply wasn’t me. I was one of the first to note that this whole debacle would get a shitload of innocent Palestinians killed and for what it’s worth, I think it’s disgusting what Israel has been doing to Gaza.
This doesn’t change the fact of what I said above. It’s more than possible to hold those two things in your head and think to yourself “both of these things are bad and this whole situation is just fooked”.
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I have checked and Mr C does think I'm literally going to hell.
Or might be joking.
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All of the major religions are inherently sexist, and often racist, because they're based on very old world views, there are no real winners on that score.
We should be wary of people who view words written even 100s of years ago, as anything other than historical interest. If you think words written 1000s years ago should be followed literally in a modern world, you are batshit.
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Re teams - you are a man, the world is your team. In the vast majority of the Muslim world (including secularish places like turkey) I simply cannot function freely.
So yeah I have a team. My team that doesn't treat me as automatically less because of my sex.
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There are a disturbingly large number of people worldwide who believe all the biblical shit as if it were ‘gospel’.
I have a horrible feeling that the number of creationists in America is circa 30%.
(Let their) god help us
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Yes, and Israel won't ever attack you so who cares about civilians in Gaza - I know your views. What I'm trying to tell you is that "picking a team" and then supporting them unconditionally is counterproductive because it enables "your team" to do things that actually reduce their chance of winning. That's exactly what is happening with Israel now. People telling them they have carte blanche because they are liberal and secular and so on is going to lead to a diminution of their status and influence and blot their copybook for years to come. Try to grasp this.
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"Muslim societies think less of me therefore I should not criticise Israel when they bomb Muslim civilians in Gaza" is truly galaxy brain thinking
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Why would I side with people who think less of me? Why are you pretending it's the same calculus for you as me?
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More consolidated power for those who think less of me is... Bad for me.
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What happens in Gaza doesn't affect either of us in any practical terms. so I'm not sure what you're on about here.
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Your aggressive solipsism really leads you into some bizarre holes
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You don't think the balance of power in the middle east is relevant outside the middle east?
...ok
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I don't think that Israel killing 4000 Palestinian civilians in Gaza is to your benefit in even the most abstract way
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"I'm a woman so I have to be in favour of Israel no matter how fooked up what they are doing is, you are a man so you wouldn't understand"
ok
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“You don't think the balance of power in the middle east is relevant outside the middle east?”
Gotta be honest, I think its relevance is massively overstated.
People have been predicting the middle east to start WW3 for years and the reason it never has is that properly powerful countries don’t see it as first tier relevant. Don’t see much evidence
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…that that has changed
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Heh also @ taking sides in the palestinian - israeli conflict based on what you think of the warring parties’ respective religious doctrine.
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Donny, in a war would you fight for the catholics or (presumably) the methodists?
I’d have the choice of joining the anglicans or the jews.
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Agitants on both sides seem comfortable with murdering women so far. Not sure there is a winning argument in there.
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Nev was not disruptive.
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We both thought it was just weird banging on about Jews and Arabs and their battles 2k years ago from a north London enclave and then ofc…
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No welsh chapel in my lot Xennial. The whole puritan thing is not really our style… Despite my father’s best efforts I was baptised by the papists so according to them at least they have the best claim on my soul.
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My dad was a Methodist. He weirdly also has a bit of a problem with Wales.
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So OB, in light of your above posts and just so I’m clear- what is your basis exactly for being so pro-Israel (and v Islamophobic) in the current conflict? Is it as simple as being married to a Jewish person? Because Jewish values don’t support genocide and slaughtering of innocents, so a tad confused where you are coming from…
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Yeah ob why don't you side with the guys who want to kill your family??
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is your old man banned from Wales clergs?
pub fighting?
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His mum died there, I think this might be the issue. (No not as his hand)
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We still have freedom of speech in the UK. I have always supported Israel (I am Christian, white British) . It is the only democracy in the Middle East. Go and compare it with Iran and Saudi and tell me they are better...... However the UK has chosen to import a lot of people whose views are homophobic and sexist and anti Jewish - silly UK.
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This place is like reading the daily mail comments section
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Tbf to Lydia she posts in the FT as well lol. - sorry if too outy lyds!
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I am not the only person in US/UK who supports Israel and thinks it is vastly better nation than places like Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc.
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As regards taking a team I am happy to take a team: the team of moderates who don’t want to kill people.
I haven’t actually seen any of those people being interviewed on Sky, BBC, Al Jazeera but I assume there must be a handful of them around in the levant. They are my team. We shouldn’t accept the false choice.
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Sorry hotnow, unless you can applaud absolutely everything the Israeli state does to the civilians of Gaza, useful idiots and simpletons will call you an anti-Semite, I don’t make the rules
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