Not a fan and I've never voted for them. They certainly deserve a long period in opposition to become sane again. However, it's also bad for the country not to have a viable opposition. Governing parties tend toward corruption and incompetence when their feet aren't held to the fire.
How do u feel about the fact that the u.k. will never again have a conservative government in your life time? Does it rag u?
It strikes me to be about as useful a comment as Laz's other thread about it ragging you that Toon are the best team in the universe etc!
At the last election with Lab being led by, and having policies dictated by, Corbynistas, many felt that there might never again be a Lab gov.
What has happened is that activists and leftie ideaologists have had to bite their tongues and lay low for a while to let the party drift back to the centre in order to regain power.
Same will happen to the tozzas. They will quickly grow sick of losing and the 'one nation wing will start to reassert itself and prevail, as the harder right will see this as the only likely way of returning to power.
At the same time, Lab, once in power will inevitably bee shown up as incompetent/corrupt on a lot of fronts and a number of 'leftie' policies that will eventually emerge will also prove unpopular with many centrist voters.
As ever, after a while the public will just think that it is time for someone else to have ago at running the country and the cycle will just begin over again
Genuinely upset. The Conservative Party has been an important player in political life for nearly 200 years, and at different times has provided both stability and reform. I really hope it comes back as its old self. A democracy needs a strong, sensible party on both the Right and the Left.
The premise is not true. Sorry but you've under estimated how thick the electorate and hope persuasive the media is are and over estimated how good Labour is.
2 terms max. Reduced majority by more than a handful of seats in term 2.
The Conservatives only recovered from their last pasting because of Cameron, the GFC and Brown's incompetence. Cameron one two elections, plus effectively bought them the next two out of Brexit's fallout (plus a hefty assist from unelectable Corbyn).
If they take a '97 style pasting, there's every chance ERG splits into reform, and the one nation remainder are too decimated to survive as a political force, especially since most donors seem to be at the psycho edge so the money follows the ERG.
Laz, are you trying to get in on the ground floor of this cummings start up party?
if Starmer brings in PE to really fist the tories into oblivion it might even have a chance at getting going, especially if it quickly gets rid of cummings
given that Britain has a more or less permanent progressive majority, PR would pretty much transform us into the continental style social market democracy we really very badly need to be
given that Britain has a more or less permanent progressive majority, PR would pretty much transform us into the continental style social market democracy we really very badly need to be
Moderately sad that you are in fact correct that there is a real possibility that I will not be alive in 10-15 years time. No concerns at all with a Starmer-led Labour party governing during what may well be my last decade.
If you mean that of, say, Macmillan or Douglas-Home or Major or Thatcher, then rather sad.
If you mean that of Cameron or May then a twinge of regret but mostly happy to see the back of it.
If you mean Johnson, Truss or Sunak then the quicker it is expunged the better.
Here comes the but.
Much as I will be happily voting Labour (having mostly previously voted Tory) this time, any democracy can't survive well with one super dominant party. the Lib Dems and Greens are weak. Reform are horrific. Problem.
"transform us into the continental style social market democracy we really very badly need to be"
This is the very last thing we need. The "continental social market democracies" have suffered economic stagnation since 2008. They are backwaters compared to the US, where the federal income tax rate is 24% at the income level that the UK's 45% tax rate kicks in, and maxes out at 37% only at $570k of annual income. Why would we copy stagnant countries rather than successful ones?
It is going to get worse too as the Scandies and other European countries who have effectively been defence spending freeloaders for a while start having to spend serious cash on military preparedness rather than diverting this to social services, as no longer can it be guaranteed that big brother over the pond will step in if Russia or others get too big for their boots.
You can't compare US and UK tax rates like that. If you want to live anywhere decent in the US you will be paying state tax and probably city tax on top of the fed rate.
State and city taxes won't take the US to the UK rate. The UK also has 13.8% employer's NICs and 2% employee NICs (top rates). The US equivalent is 1.45% employer/ employee Medicare. The US is very different - it isn't running the same high tax/ high regulation model which is failing in the EU/ UK.
Bear in mind also GG that over here HMRC will do your tax calc for you, and unless you’re rof level dumb it’s more or less fine. For free. Tax over there means paying some mom and pop to do it as a bare minimum, added cost a few grand at least. Money swills around over there like it did here for the Edwardians,
State and city taxes won't take the US to the UK rate. The UK also has 13.8% employer's NICs and 2% employee NICs (top rates). The US equivalent is 1.45% employer/ employee Medicare. The US is very different - it isn't running the same high tax/ high regulation model which is failing in the EU/ UK.
Correct, there, GG. Also, in the US when it comes to tax, there seem to be so many breaks for expenses you can set against tax to reduce your net rate.
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In a way, a bit sad. It's been quite the clown show and now the circus is leaving town forever.
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I’m looking forward to Farage making going to the pub at lunchtime on a Friday compulsory.
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I could vote for that
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Farridge can't make new laws from GAOL, which is where he will be with Bankski and blowjo soon.
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The Proper Fvcking Lunch Party
P F O
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I don’t want to jinx it. It’s been a weird few years and things haven’t really gone the way one would expect.
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[risky] No, because they're all the same, and I'm not crying, it just rained heavily on my face when you looked the other way. [/risky]
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Shatner I have made the prediction in the OP several times on this board before
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Not a fan and I've never voted for them. They certainly deserve a long period in opposition to become sane again. However, it's also bad for the country not to have a viable opposition. Governing parties tend toward corruption and incompetence when their feet aren't held to the fire.
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Next one will be in the 2030s.
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How do u feel about the fact that the u.k. will never again have a conservative government in your life time? Does it rag u?
It strikes me to be about as useful a comment as Laz's other thread about it ragging you that Toon are the best team in the universe etc!
At the last election with Lab being led by, and having policies dictated by, Corbynistas, many felt that there might never again be a Lab gov.
What has happened is that activists and leftie ideaologists have had to bite their tongues and lay low for a while to let the party drift back to the centre in order to regain power.
Same will happen to the tozzas. They will quickly grow sick of losing and the 'one nation wing will start to reassert itself and prevail, as the harder right will see this as the only likely way of returning to power.
At the same time, Lab, once in power will inevitably bee shown up as incompetent/corrupt on a lot of fronts and a number of 'leftie' policies that will eventually emerge will also prove unpopular with many centrist voters.
As ever, after a while the public will just think that it is time for someone else to have ago at running the country and the cycle will just begin over again
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Genuinely upset. The Conservative Party has been an important player in political life for nearly 200 years, and at different times has provided both stability and reform. I really hope it comes back as its old self. A democracy needs a strong, sensible party on both the Right and the Left.
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Wot the Realist sed.
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The premise is not true. Sorry but you've under estimated how thick the electorate and hope persuasive the media is are and over estimated how good Labour is.
2 terms max. Reduced majority by more than a handful of seats in term 2.
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I've never voted for them but they haven't disappeared, they'll come back and probably get in in two elections' time.
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The Conservatives only recovered from their last pasting because of Cameron, the GFC and Brown's incompetence. Cameron one two elections, plus effectively bought them the next two out of Brexit's fallout (plus a hefty assist from unelectable Corbyn).
If they take a '97 style pasting, there's every chance ERG splits into reform, and the one nation remainder are too decimated to survive as a political force, especially since most donors seem to be at the psycho edge so the money follows the ERG.
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"won" obvs
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Laz, are you trying to get in on the ground floor of this cummings start up party?
if Starmer brings in PE to really fist the tories into oblivion it might even have a chance at getting going, especially if it quickly gets rid of cummings
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IT RAGGEH RAGGIN U
IT RAGGA RAGGA HOO
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I sneakily kind of like classic dom
he’s a wrong’un, but he’s from Durham
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There won’t be another Conservative Party government ever.
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given that Britain has a more or less permanent progressive majority, PR would pretty much transform us into the continental style social market democracy we really very badly need to be
I am a PR convert
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I’m not sure Sir Keir will tap in that open goal tho.
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Unfortunately I'm a lot younger than you Laz, so will see them again
Hopefully I've got another 50 years see
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if ur younger than me sun it’s by about ten seconds and the time the tories need to recover is measured in quarter-millenia
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Has starmer said whether he’s going to do PR yet?
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Laz you are in the 47-53 bracket presumably?
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given that Britain has a more or less permanent progressive majority, PR would pretty much transform us into the continental style social market democracy we really very badly need to be
I am a PR convert
I have been saying this for decades
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And during one of those decades there was a ref on it. What was the result?
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The ref was not on PR it was for single transferable vote, even I didnt vote for it because it didnt actually solve the issues we have with our system
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Moderately sad that you are in fact correct that there is a real possibility that I will not be alive in 10-15 years time. No concerns at all with a Starmer-led Labour party governing during what may well be my last decade.
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Do you think then anyone understands or cares about PR?
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davos: obviously not, no
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Tommy B
You an old codger, or just planning to smash the meth?
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Depends how you define Conservative govt.
If you mean that of, say, Macmillan or Douglas-Home or Major or Thatcher, then rather sad.
If you mean that of Cameron or May then a twinge of regret but mostly happy to see the back of it.
If you mean Johnson, Truss or Sunak then the quicker it is expunged the better.
Here comes the but.
Much as I will be happily voting Labour (having mostly previously voted Tory) this time, any democracy can't survive well with one super dominant party. the Lib Dems and Greens are weak. Reform are horrific. Problem.
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laz. i assume you thought this in 1997 as well?
look how that turned out. blair remains the only labour leader to win a working majority since wilson over 50 years ago
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"transform us into the continental style social market democracy we really very badly need to be"
This is the very last thing we need. The "continental social market democracies" have suffered economic stagnation since 2008. They are backwaters compared to the US, where the federal income tax rate is 24% at the income level that the UK's 45% tax rate kicks in, and maxes out at 37% only at $570k of annual income. Why would we copy stagnant countries rather than successful ones?
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Because they enjoy a better quality of life (based on happiness - it's not all about tax rates OBVIOUSLY)
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-people-who-say-they-are-hap…
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Wot GG send.
It is going to get worse too as the Scandies and other European countries who have effectively been defence spending freeloaders for a while start having to spend serious cash on military preparedness rather than diverting this to social services, as no longer can it be guaranteed that big brother over the pond will step in if Russia or others get too big for their boots.
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You can't compare US and UK tax rates like that. If you want to live anywhere decent in the US you will be paying state tax and probably city tax on top of the fed rate.
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And you’ll probably be getting shot
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But you’ll be earning double what you do here and cost of living is still roughly 2/3 of ours. They’re just richer.
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State and city taxes won't take the US to the UK rate. The UK also has 13.8% employer's NICs and 2% employee NICs (top rates). The US equivalent is 1.45% employer/ employee Medicare. The US is very different - it isn't running the same high tax/ high regulation model which is failing in the EU/ UK.
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It's the Peace dividend. Followed the break-up of the Soviet Union. The UK also benefited considerably from it.
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Bear in mind also GG that over here HMRC will do your tax calc for you, and unless you’re rof level dumb it’s more or less fine. For free. Tax over there means paying some mom and pop to do it as a bare minimum, added cost a few grand at least. Money swills around over there like it did here for the Edwardians,
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It’s quite funny that there are voters in this election who were not alive the last time labour won a general election.
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State and city taxes won't take the US to the UK rate. The UK also has 13.8% employer's NICs and 2% employee NICs (top rates). The US equivalent is 1.45% employer/ employee Medicare. The US is very different - it isn't running the same high tax/ high regulation model which is failing in the EU/ UK.
Correct, there, GG. Also, in the US when it comes to tax, there seem to be so many breaks for expenses you can set against tax to reduce your net rate.
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