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ex-employer reclaiming training costs q

So a m8 has left his old job. They paid for him do a few courses and he agreed to pay back a % of the training costs if he left within 3 years. He is happy about that. 

BUT - his ex-employers have now invoiced him for all of the hotel, travel and food costs from when he was away on the courses that they say he also owes them. 

 

1) what a bunch of aunts. 

2) can they do this? 

 

PS the contract just says agree to repay "training costs"  

ta

It’s ambiguous, so they’re trying it on a bit in the hope he will just suck it up. If he doesn’t, then they probably think well, we’ll strike a deal and get a little bit of the hotel and travel back. He should push back but he is probably going to have to respect the fact that it is, genuinely, a bit ambiguous and their interpretation is not a total non starter. So he’s probably going to have to suck up reaching a deal that incorporates something over and above just the course fees.

Obviously, having not read the contract, there is some chance that the above is bollocks, and neither you nor your mate get to sue me - unlucky

I think you could argue that training costs could normally be interpreted as all costs associated with the training which includes travel and accommodation if he had to stay overnight to attend the training.

Its not an employment law q. 

Its a contract law litigation q. 

Would a district judge in the regions let them get away with this bollocks? 

think I just answered the issue there. 

Yes but I can see a judge announcing that the "normal meaning" of the phrase is clearly "X" being something that isn't normal at all and hence covers the costs of training, associated travel and his boss's dry cleaning on a Wednesday when the month starts with J.

if this is a post departure shindig, he should simply respond back firmly and politely to sod off. 

He can offer a reasonable sum that he thinks may apply towards his training

I would suggest the natural and ordinary meaning of the phrase "training costs" is that it covers all of the costs incurred by the company in relation to the individual participating in the training, including travel and accommodation.

"Training fees" would be a different matter.

It's all a bit ambiguous but if he doesn't need anything from them (e.g. a reference) then he should probably just pay them for the actual training cost make it clear he does not believe he is liable for the rest and see what they do.  My guess is they won't take it to court as the sums involved will be small and it will make them look like utter khunts in public.

It may be different if we are talking about a small regional law firm.  They probably will take it to court because they are khunts and don't give a fvck who knows it. 

He should invoice them for the time spent in the hotel - he was away from his normal residence on work - so £200/hr from 18:00 until 09:00 on each day. The contract doesn't specify that either.  They can deduct the hotel costs from that sum and pay him the balance.

out of interest, how long was the course and where did he stay? actual alol at the fact they've kept note of his dinner expenses from a years-ago training course

Training costs IMHO does not include any associated travel, accommodation or subsistence expenses.

And they would need to sue him in the small claims court.

Cant see many DDJ’s giving the firm the time of day on this one...

This: 

 

"It may be different if we are talking about a small regional law firm.  They probably will take it to court because they are khunts and don't give a fvck who knows it. "

 

Why are law firms run by such petty little aunts? 

It is an employment law question, as it’s an unlawful deduction from wages if they get the money back from him, possible minimum wage claim you could construct too. 

If the contract says he should repay a % of the training costs if he leaves within 3 years, then he should repay a %.  Your mate may want to speak to Employment Barristers who have experience in employment disputes regarding training costs, there may be some guidance on this.

In the first instance, the ex-employer will try and recover the training costs (or a % of them) in the Employment Tribunal so it might not cost as much.

With something like this, its probably worth your mate speaking to their ex-employer on a WIthout Prejudice basis and explaining the % he is happy to repay.  As the paying party, he is kind of on the back foot to start off with.

", there may be some guidance on this."

 

yes you see I was hoping someone on here might be able to point me to that. 

 

PS - In the first instance, the ex-employer will try and recover the training costs (or a % of them) in the Employment Tribunal so it might not cost as much.

Can Employers issue proceedings in the ET to recover money from employees? 

I've known ex-employers take ex-employees to the Employment TRibunal to claw back commission, bonus as per their contract.  On that basis, I would imagine any other costs of expenses under the contract falls within the jursidiction of the EMployment Tribunal

Have a look at the Good Law Project website, they are currently taking a case reclamation of training costs.

Not sure it covers your specific point, but may be helpful.

So far as I can tell there is no case law on this point in any employment law cases. 

Clearly there is not one in contract law either, or you lot do not know. 

 

PS thanks Lears - will have alook. 

 

note the tax position - any money they firm recoups will be liable for tax.  And your pal gets his deducted from gross.  So there's space here to do a deal.

Not helpful from a legal perspective but I would have thought it would be helpful to consider any reputational damage he could....encourage....by sharing his experience in various places online. Although this may be covered elsewhere in his contract. 

 

My experience is that firms rarely chase for this sort of stuff due to these other factors depending on costs and circumstances. My firm let me off the hook for about £13k worth of legal ed when I left. 

Employers categorically can not start their own claim in the ET, at any time.

They can only bring a breach of contract counter-claim and only if the Employee has started a Contract Claim himself.

Question for OP, is it a fixed % across the full 3 years and then nothing on year 3 + 1day?

If the recovery % doesn't taper over the period, then arguably a penalty rather than reasonable estimate of liquidated damages.

I have run this successfully within defence before DJ on 3 occasions (yes, there are many of this particular class of **** in the world).

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