The original was shown by a video call, so it was a copy (by video) already. And you certified a copy of that copy, not of the original. It's a copy of a copy which, if you've seen Multiplicity starring Michael Keaton (and not many people have), is a tricky area.
Good point jelly, I think as long as I use wording to the effect that the copy I have is a true copy of the original which I have only viewed via video conference or something I should be covered.
I think poor Chuffy needs to self-report to the SRA.
Seriously, unless you can actually take physical possession of a document and inspect it, you simply cannot certify that anything is a true copy of that ‘original’.
How do you even know it's "the" original though? Maybe someone has swapped a page out on the version you certified. Maybe they swapped it back in to the original and your certified copy is wrong.
Even your paralegal might have copied the original unfaithfully.
It would be better if the affirmation said "I certify that this is a photocopy I made myself of the version of the document I was handed which purports to be the original but no assurance can be given and no reliance should be made on the basis that someone might have swapped a page out."
FTSE - I said ‘that’ original rather than ‘the’ original.
Anyhar, you are not confirming to the authenticity of the document that you are certifying- simply that it is a copy of the original (which may of course be a fraudulent doc).
This is why I would never want to be a Notary Public - especially as you are likely to be looking at documents that purport to originate from somewhat dodgy jurisdictions.
I am being asked to certify a passport and driving licence so the missing page etc issue won't come up. I will be able to tell if the documents look legit on the face of it (although of course certification is not attesting to the validity of the document) but it is of course not the original but an electronic version of them.
I have the presenter pick a non-primary colour and note it at the bottom of the document during the video session. Then have it sent and I'm pretty sure is a scan of the doc shown.
I am being asked to certify a passport and driving licence so the missing page etc issue won't come up.
This is even worse. You will be certifying a true copy of "the document"(i.e. the whole document, including paper counterparts, visas etc) when all you are actually trying to certify is one page of it with the photo on.
I'm only a lowly in-house bod, for whom regulatory type stuff is mostly just a cute old fashioned thing which only real lawyers have to worry about, and even I wouldn't do this.
It would be better if the affirmation said "I certify that this is a photocopy I made myself of the version of the document I was handed which purports to be the original but no assurance can be given and no reliance should be made on the basis that someone might have swapped a page out."
there is case law that using a webcam to view a document and certifiying it is okay
even bluddy experian guidance has a whole section on the steps to certify over a webcam
cameras are demonstrably better than your eyes these days so there is even an argument that you should look at docs with a camera because you're more like to tell if it is a fake
now, if you are certifying for a guy called Shladmir Shmutin or Supreme Junta leader Paul donkey raper baptiste then maybe there is some other red flag at play that you should be leaning into
but ffs, this clingning to doing things in a stupid old fashioned way needs 3 metres of fence post soaked in garlic rammed through it
If this is to certify identity for a passport application, then you can avoid this (but still certify their identity) if they apply online. They provide the details of the person certifying and the passport office get in touch with you by email, to confirm identity. That avoids the need to provide certified copies of ID with a paper application.
It's also a much easier and quicker application process (as no paper processed at the passport office end) and when we did passports in January (including a 1st passport for a child where ID had to be certified), I had 2 of the passports back in about 5 days and the other two in less than 10 days.
I hereby certify that this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of a document presented to my by a person purporting to be the person whose likeness to the photograph the said corresponding page I neither confirm nor deny. This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, business, events and incidents are the products of the author’s imagination. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.
Pretty sure the last identity I certified for a passport already had their photo on the government's webpage and I just had to agree that it looked like my mate's snotty kid.
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Not sure what happened to the above but I meant similar of course.
Seems alright to me. Can't be arsed to trawl LawSoc for any guidance. Anyone know of a reason not to do it?
Chz.
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The original was shown by a video call, so it was a copy (by video) already. And you certified a copy of that copy, not of the original. It's a copy of a copy which, if you've seen Multiplicity starring Michael Keaton (and not many people have), is a tricky area.
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I wouldn't certify that personally
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As with docusign, it seems as if nobody gives a fvck
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Good point jelly, I think as long as I use wording to the effect that the copy I have is a true copy of the original which I have only viewed via video conference or something I should be covered.
What shall I do when I am struck off, he mused...
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I think poor Chuffy needs to self-report to the SRA.
Seriously, unless you can actually take physical possession of a document and inspect it, you simply cannot certify that anything is a true copy of that ‘original’.
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How do you even know it's "the" original though? Maybe someone has swapped a page out on the version you certified. Maybe they swapped it back in to the original and your certified copy is wrong.
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Rather makes a mockery of things, wouldn’t you say?
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Even your paralegal might have copied the original unfaithfully.
It would be better if the affirmation said "I certify that this is a photocopy I made myself of the version of the document I was handed which purports to be the original but no assurance can be given and no reliance should be made on the basis that someone might have swapped a page out."
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FTSE - I said ‘that’ original rather than ‘the’ original.
Anyhar, you are not confirming to the authenticity of the document that you are certifying- simply that it is a copy of the original (which may of course be a fraudulent doc).
This is why I would never want to be a Notary Public - especially as you are likely to be looking at documents that purport to originate from somewhat dodgy jurisdictions.
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I am being asked to certify a passport and driving licence so the missing page etc issue won't come up. I will be able to tell if the documents look legit on the face of it (although of course certification is not attesting to the validity of the document) but it is of course not the original but an electronic version of them.
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I have the presenter pick a non-primary colour and note it at the bottom of the document during the video session. Then have it sent and I'm pretty sure is a scan of the doc shown.
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Can’t give you are specific reason but our house view is that we won’t certify documents viewed over video.
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There’s SRA guidance on this, no? Which I can’t remember but generally didn’t permit it…
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This is even worse. You will be certifying a true copy of "the document"(i.e. the whole document, including paper counterparts, visas etc) when all you are actually trying to certify is one page of it with the photo on.
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DON’T DO IT CHUFFERS!
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Yes pass it on to their accountant LOL!
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I'm not going to do it. Will find an alternative.
Thanks all, Chuffy's career is safe for now. And if I am going down I want it to be for something sexier and more noteworthy than this.
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Amateurs
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I'm only a lowly in-house bod, for whom regulatory type stuff is mostly just a cute old fashioned thing which only real lawyers have to worry about, and even I wouldn't do this.
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A loud no from me. Pretty much wot Bertha sed.
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It would be better if the affirmation said "I certify that this is a photocopy I made myself of the version of the document I was handed which purports to be the original but no assurance can be given and no reliance should be made on the basis that someone might have swapped a page out."
We’re gonna need a bigger stamp!
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love it when neighbours r like “o can u certify this” and i say “sure” and they come round with just the photocopy page
thanks, now off u trot back down the block and get the original thank u
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To be 100% correct you need to actually take the photocopy yourself.
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I do this all the time. Don’t even look at anything I sign. Be more like Pizzak.
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The SRA put some guidance out about this during covid. Cant be bothered to look for the link but it essentially said do a video call.
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what the fcuk is this?
there is case law that using a webcam to view a document and certifiying it is okay
even bluddy experian guidance has a whole section on the steps to certify over a webcam
cameras are demonstrably better than your eyes these days so there is even an argument that you should look at docs with a camera because you're more like to tell if it is a fake
now, if you are certifying for a guy called Shladmir Shmutin or Supreme Junta leader Paul donkey raper baptiste then maybe there is some other red flag at play that you should be leaning into
but ffs, this clingning to doing things in a stupid old fashioned way needs 3 metres of fence post soaked in garlic rammed through it
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Marshall Hall16 Mar 23 00:11
To be 100% correct you need to actually take the photocopy yourself.
____________________________________________________________
this is also nonsense
almost always the guidance is "take your document and a photocopy of it to the person certifying"
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If this is to certify identity for a passport application, then you can avoid this (but still certify their identity) if they apply online. They provide the details of the person certifying and the passport office get in touch with you by email, to confirm identity. That avoids the need to provide certified copies of ID with a paper application.
It's also a much easier and quicker application process (as no paper processed at the passport office end) and when we did passports in January (including a 1st passport for a child where ID had to be certified), I had 2 of the passports back in about 5 days and the other two in less than 10 days.
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I never certify to having seen the original. I certify as a true and complete copy of the document presented to me.
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I hereby certify that this is a true and complete copy of the corresponding page of a document presented to my by a person purporting to be the person whose likeness to the photograph the said corresponding page I neither confirm nor deny. This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, business, events and incidents are the products of the author’s imagination. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.
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Pretty sure the last identity I certified for a passport already had their photo on the government's webpage and I just had to agree that it looked like my mate's snotty kid.
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