i'm sorry but this is really irking me now.
How long do these people go through school, uni etc to train? If you don't like the salary then don't choose the fooking career. Same with nurses.
FAOD this is in reference to salaries not working conditions.
In the private sector, highly paid individuals normally ask for more money after improving most if not all performance metrics....
IF THEY DON’T LIKE IT THEY CAN LEAVE!!!
WHY ARE WAITING TIMES SO LONG?!!!
WHY CAN’T I SEE MY GP??!!
Sorry but I don't give a fook if it's irking you, you ignorant [email protected] Salaries have fallen in real terms for the past 15 years, that's the whole point. Now fook off.
Hopefully we continue striking indefinitely just to piss you off
The Scottish one is averted \:D/
They're a bunch of cůnts.
Remember when we clapped them all on Thursdays and now they just leave people to die.
BUT YOU WERE CLAPPED!
NOBODY CLAPS FOR ME, NOT EVEN WHEN I GET PAID MY BONUS!!
I support the strikes and would agree to a 20% salary increase across the board, to be funded by the OP, piechucker, and ami.
£40bn paid to cronies for PPE. Never forget.
Chimp: Whose salaries haven’t been made worse in real terms by inflation over the last 15 years? Also what account are you making in your calculations for employer contributions to the NHS pension scheme?
Bertha: These Conservatives are corrupt scumbags that we need to get in the bin at the first opportunity - but that £40bn would have been a one off expense, not a general increase of the NHS’ single largest running cost by 35% indefinitely.
Happy for doctors and nurses to be paid more
Where do you think this money will go?
That isn’t “salary”, so none. But the NHS pension has been reformed multiple times over that time period, each time becoming worse.
They’re stilling putting covid 19 as the cause of death on peoples death certificates FFS.
Really bored of people who haven’t done the most basic research going er but that’s happened to everyone hasn’t it!? No it hasn’t, dickhead.
They’re stilling doing that are they?
THEY DIED WITH THE VACCINE
And also, just fook off banging on about the pension. Yes, the pension is good - not nearly as good as it used to be, but good. No, that doesn’t make up for shafting us today. Nobody really believes it does, that’s just a way to shout down legitimate complaints over pay. “You’ll be doing great when you’re 70!” is not a serious response to people in their 20s and 30s
Yeah people who moan about public sector pensions don't understand how they work post 2015.
Eg you probably won't get your full pension until 72
Doing your a and e shifts at 71
The linking of NRA to SPA in the 2015 scheme is pretty crappy.
486 death certificates last week with COVID 19 included as the cause of death.
It’s pure bullshit as you know. The actual cause is far more likely to be the lack of any timely diagnosis / treatment of the disease that really killed them while the doctor was seeing private patients in an NHS hospital, or playing golf, or striking to avoid their grossly over inflated pension contributions tipping over the annual limit.
Tell me more.
IF THEY DON’T LIKE IT THEY CAN LEAVE!!!
WHY ARE THEY SPENDING THEIR TIME DOING PRIVATE WORK!!!????!!!
The strike is by JUNIOR doctors.
The junior doctors' strike is the result of a line that the media has run for years that pay for the lower paid should increase but pay for those earning more should be more constrained. That's a very worthy idea but it has had the effect of removing differentials and deincentivising those with more skills/ability from working to the max in terms of productivity/hours. The government got away with not increasing junior doctors' pay for over a decade for two reasons: (i) a portion of junior doctors were from families that were at least moderately affluent and BOMAD would support the junior doctors at least until they hit mid/late-30s and were further progressed in their careers; and (ii) a portion of junior doctors were from poorer families but very education-oriented/long-term gain-oriented and the money that a junior doctor earns seemed.
Gonna be a bit awks though if the doctors hold out for >10% more than the nurses get.
"of any timely diagnosis / treatment of the disease that really killed them while the doctor was seeing private patients in an NHS hospital, or playing golf, or striking to avoid their grossly over inflated pension contributions tipping over the annual limit."
Na it was covid
Still sympathetic to doctors and nurses, who seem to be much less well remunerated compared to their counterparts in other developed nations. (Yes, I know US doctors usually graduate with >$100K student debt, still ...)
Rail workers though can fvck off now.
‘The strike is by JUNIOR doctors.
tbf GBeebies and Parler omit that tiny detail.
Interesting negotiating tactic starting at a number you know you definitely won't get and then increasing your demand when it doesn't succeed.
are the DRs still asking for 35%?
perfidious, it's not coherent to support an NHS free at the point of use (as most of us do) and then compare salaries with other developed nations that prefer other (often more mixed) systems
No Dice they've upped it to 49% now.
Round it up to 50% and let’s resolve this.
Increase to be funded by an audit of who voted Tory at the last election, whose salaries will be subject to automatic deductions.
Anyone pushing back on this is to see the inside of a gaol.
Surely the extra £350m a week can’t have been spent already…
Clear that we don't want to fund a public sector that maintains health and education let alone develops us. Economic effects of this are massive.
Can I have a 50% rise as well? My part of the public sector has been getting by on 2-3% rises for the last 20 years, had real pay eroded by inflation and had our pension reformed twice in that period.
And you get shot at as well.
tom linorder - do you reckon the average income of a Labour voter is lower or higher than a Conservative voter?
I expect lib dem voters have the highest average income
What’s your point? Because you’re getting fooked we should too?
Public sector avoid stick together.
medics if all varieties will continue to get my support but mask up. Many of us need you too
That made no sense.
shut up you facking sausage. If they're unhappy with the pay, don't fooking train to be one. Not hard is it? Not as if they've all had their salaries cut in half overnight.
"ohhh I spent 10 years trainingbut now striking because I'm not paid enough" fook the fook off
Part of the problem - as always - is the idiotic final salary pension that none of our “leaders” thought wise to save or invest for because … money printer, state cant go bankrupt, endless growth, stay in power and let the next guy fix it, bla bla bla. So now - like all workers - their current real has been eroded away by inflation, whilst the value of the pensions sky rockets. This is obviously a massive problem. Cant really see how it gets fixed tbh:
Aside from that - yes everybody’s pay has been massively eroded by inflation. Its self evidently worse than all the reported stats imply because they dont fully account for (i) asset value growth and (ii) the fact that social ‘returns’ on work and taxes (services and infrastructure) are shitter and on the verge of collapse.
It is a moral duty of everybody to negotiate, move, strike, demand, work to rule, whatever to create an inflationary pay spiral so that our cowardly leaders are forced by markets to do the needful: end the Triple Lock, inflate or legislate away unpayable pension liabilities and let house prices collapse to super affordable levels.
Thats why, at the present time, I immediately support every strike no matter how useless or deserving I may or may not consider the people proposing it to be.
This makes no sense, you idiot. Of course people who have spent a long time training are going to be pissed off at not being paid enough.
I entered medical school at just about the start point of that graph above. Obviously I wasn’t going to quit halfway through
iF YoU DoN’T LiKE EndLESslY FaLlINg PaY THeN JuSt DoN’T Be A DoCtoR ThEn!! Yes I foresee no issues with that you absolute fooking clown
Honestly, cr997, you’re getting it from both barrels from me because you represent a very common mindset among the British public:
- there is no need to listen to anyone who says their pay should improve, they should have thought of that years ago before embarking on their career path
- there is no cost to pissing off key professionals, and no particular need to value them. They’ll just fall into line eventually and if they don’t then we’ll do without them somehow
This is absolute stupidity and a major reason why everything in the UK is so fooking shit
Teachers? Don’t need em. Nurses? fook off. Doctors? I can’t get a GP appointment so they might as well just quit for all I care. Civil servants? Woke lefties
If they're unhappy with the pay, don't fooking train to be one. Not hard is it?’
This response to a massive recruitment crisis in the NHS from somebody who is (presumably) old enough to vote is precisely why this country is in such a fvcking state
Chimp in not saying it shouldn't improve, but when you are pitching 50% you just look like a moron and my comment was that docs should stop thinking they are some exceptional case that must be treated differently
Well they (and nurses) kind of are a special case if the govt has pledged to cut NHS waiting times and immigration
unfortunately for them their constituency is people who think wE sHouLd TraIn arE oWn and wHy shOuLd I paY fOr StUdEnTs tO sIt aRoUnD aLL dAY/nUrSes To SpeNd tHeiR tImE doInG tIkToKs???!!!!!
that’s their problem though, court the mob and they’ll turn on you eventually
Most doctors are not working in health centres. Labour and Conservative governments have for too long now undervalued these key professionals. If there was one profession I would be happy to pay well considering the pressures, risks if you get it wrong, expectations, hours worked and length of time to qualify.... it would be doctors..... walk in their shoes before you moan...... and consider who would you want to treat you if you had a serious life threatening condition.... Not your charity bosses and council chief executives on a couple of hundred grand a year!!!
1. The only reason anyone is “pitching 50%” is purely and strictly because that is the actual degree of pay loss as measured by RPI. Will we get 50% - no of course not. But why exactly is it “moronic” to observe the massive scale of pay cuts and ask for that to be made whole? Just because the number is a big one? Er yes we know it’s a big number, that’s rather our whole grievance. It should be yours too.
2. Nobody is saying doctors are “some exceptional case that must be treated differently”, you have entirely made this up and it is utter bollocks. No worker should be asked to swallow a whopping pay cut vs inflation, particularly not workers performing essential tasks in great demand. The fact that you’ve also suffered a big pay cut should make you more sympathetic towards doctors, not less.
People when doctor pay is being cut vs inflation - 🤷♂️
People when doctors ask for pay to be restored vs inflation - 😡
Pay rises for public sector workers are good for the economy and the assets that Tory voters own
Otherwise known as Brexit
If this strike were about unsafe working conditions, dangerous rota gaps, juniors not having somewhere to go to rest after a busy night shift so end up having to drive home tired and ending up in catastrophic car accidents, shockingly incompetent support departments that terminate your employment for no obvious reason without telling you and mental parking charges then I would join - and have joined - junior doctors on the picket line.
However, these things aren’t being given as reasons for the strikes, we’re just being told that they want a 35% pay rise. A pay rise doesn’t solve those very real problems; if anything it will exacerbate them by pulling more money out of the system.
Whatever has happened to pay in real terms over the last 15 years, doctors are extremely well remunerated compared to the national average - and out earn most other professions outside central london. They also have other positive externalities including a near guaranteed recession-proof job as opposed to the rest of us that have to collectively hold our breath whenever the economy farts a bit too moistly.
In spite of that position, doctors are calling for support from a public that earns less, faces the same bills, has comparatively tiny pension benefits and which is being held hostage as, after all, it’s not the Health Secretary that will be unable to get treatment on strike days, it will be the rest of us.
So a profession that out earns most of the public with better benefits than most of the public is holding the public hostage while calling for support… from the public. That is what I find immensely unpalatable about this situation.
Most of the public don’t have to go to uni for 5 years (having worked like a [email protected]) through school and most of the public aren’t responsible for the lives of others
And the public want shorter waiting times, a quality health service and to see their gp whenever they want to
so they can either cough up or stop moaning.
Hard agree that the comparison with doctors and the rest of us.
Not sure what the national average has got to do with things even talking about the most important of the professions.
Doctors should be paid a fortune
In that case rather than increase pay, why not invest in reducing the problems I talked about?
Let’s invest in more staff, let’s start looking at mental and physical well-being schemes, let’s get competent support departments, let’s standardise systems, stop making junior doctors reapply for their jobs every year, let’s not require nurses to put themselves into tens of thousands of pounds of debt to get a degree and instead invest in apprenticeships where training is funded and people qualify with savings instead of student debt.
I’m not saying the system is adequately funded as it is or that more money wouldn’t be a massive benefit. I’m saying that we do this dance every 3 to 5 years and whatever the final agreement is, it won’t be enough to make people happy with the sh*t they currently have to put up with for the rest of the month. Paying people more money doesn’t solve these problems so in 3 to 5 years’ time we will be having the same discussion again. Or we could put this money into actually fixing the problems themselves.
There’s no point investing in staff if you’re not going to pay properly. This “oh well if it were about working conditions then I would completely support them, but it’s about pay so I can’t possibly!” is familiar, it’s also bollocks
“Mental and physical well-being schemes” is also bollocks. Do you know what would increase my well-being? Being paid better. Stop trying to dance around the necessity of paying fairly.
I know nothing but the graph on nurses pay could be misleading. How many of the other countries on the graph have free health care?
Junior doctors don’t reapply for jobs every year
Why would that piece of information render the graph any more or less “misleading”?
Junior doctors do need better working conditions, we also need a pay rise. This has been ignored for a decade+ and it has now come to a head. Comparisons with “the national average” cut no fooking ice at all. We are skilled professionals doing a difficult fooking job in a shitty failing service. The very least you can do is stop cutting our fooking pay.
I wonder if, but remember I know nothing, in countries where you have to pay for healthcare, then could the economics of that model allow for higher paid healthcare workers?
The economics of the UK’s model allowed for better paid healthcare workers 10 years ago. The decision to cut the pay of healthcare staff is political and does not automatically flow from the payment model
Fair enough, as I wrote, I know nothing. Was a reasonable question though.
No it wasn’t
Viperess went through a patch where she was having to do job applications every year. It was miserable and seemed like a huge waste of everyone’s time and resources.
I’m not going to pretend I know the sector better than an actual doctor but my point is that something was going on there and it was nuts.
Also, don’t presuppose my mental state. I do care a lot about these issues and I’m not just “dancing around necessities”. I’ve just watched this play go round in circles for the last 15 years and I know that no pay rise will ever be good enough when conditions are what they are.
Also-also there is a difference between inflation outstripping pay and getting an actual pay cut. Unless we’re talking about the technicalities of the transfer from the old to the new junior doctor contract (which was 100% b0ll0x), no-one is actually *cutting* your pay and it’s disingenuous to say that that’s what’s happening.
It’s disingenuous to say that’s not what’s happening. Pay at a given grade is worth less than it used to be, by a lot. That is a pay cut by any sensible definition. If you are really concerned about junior doctors then you should support pay restoration, and not suggest diversionary nonsense like “well-being schemes” that we all know will achieve fook all. If you were getting shafted by your firm and they proposed a staff yoga room in recompense, would that satisfy you or would you consider it to be insulting bollocks?
If it makes you happy then when I write “pay cut” please insert the words “real terms pay cut”
If your constant recourse is to reductio ad absurdum, swearing and insults then we’ve prolly gone as far as we’re going to go, Chimp.
There is no “reductio ad absurdum”, CrimsonViper. That’s exactly what a “well-being scheme” looks like in the NHS. I’ve seen them
Stop trying to gaslight that we don’t really need better pay, we just need some ill-defined improvements in everything else. There was a 98% vote in favour of strike action over pay. That should tell you something. We are sick of vague promises. Show us the money.
If “wow again” is the best you can come up with, maybe don’t bother m7.
Yes, I’m angry, I’m sick to the back fooking teeth of being told how it is by people who don’t have the first clue.
“It’s not really a pay cut”
”What about if we made the parking cheaper?”
”Maybe pay is bad because the NHS is free, did you think of that?”
Just fook off.
What about some sort of nice picture for the staff room?
It’s not allowed (infection control). Yes, we were really told this at a hospital I worked in. No, I don’t understand it either.
the “uk offers free healthcare so doctors should b paid less” is a fooking stupid point
doctors r skilled professionals, so mobile enough that they can go abroad if the delta is too big
austerity has cre7ed a stupid spiral where the gap between nhs salaries and altern7ive options overseas is too big, so we lose loads of decent doctors and make the situation worse. this will destroy the nhs
so the end result of something doesn’t change is no nhs. then doctors in the long run will b paid a small 4tune, but medical costs 2 every1 else will b much higher.
either we pay doctors properly, or wave bye bye 2 the nhs
and yes i kno the plan 4 many rightwhingers is 2 destroy the nhs so they r likely the 1s arguing against pay rises
Join the discussion