See also the lawyer quitting to start a salad bar getting no further than working in Pret to get some experience in the sector. You can always tell the ones who didn’t have to do Saturday jobs as kids.
M7 of mine (Dave) did a lot of licensing work and had a hundred horror stories about people with no experience (being being drunks and/or fatties) opening pubs and restaurants. People spending £500k on refurbing leasehold properties to look like the set of Footballer’s Wives and going under before they had even opened the doors
of the businesses that people think they would enjoy; running a pub is one of the hardest in terms of graft required.
the fantasy is as publican propping up the end of the bar holding court and counting the cash. The reality is late nights / early mornings 7 days a week for minimum wage.
If I went into the hospitality trade, I'd retrain as a sommelier and move to France or work at a wine merchant in la Gironde, or somewhere in the Med; anywhere between Monpellier to Cannes (and not Marseiile).
Deffo not a pub. Having to deal with oiks. I like footy, but not watching it in pubs in Britain.
Restaurant trade is incredibly stressful, has very narrow margins and a high failure rate.
oh laz oh laz it’s really difficult, hey laz you just try [stuff that doesn’t actually sound that difficult] rather than just [insert self hating lawyer guff belittling what is actually the very challenging role of commercial lawyer]
yeah yeah do one
she’ll probably do fine and if she doesn’t initially she surely will after she’s got a bit of an experience
everyone starts with no experience, you do realise that
Running a restaurant is very similar. Up at dawn to get to markets for the best fresh produce and finish work in the small hours once you’ve cleaned up and cashed up. Definitely not a job for anyone who likes sleeping.
The fundamental thing that puts me off any role in hospitality is the customers. Why anyone would choose a role dealing face to face with the public is beyond me.
Perhaps not evident in a profession she wants out of. How is she likely to demonstrate those attributes in a role she does not like? Give her a break.
The trouble with law is manifold. Here are some examples.
It requires a long run up so you invest a great deal of your time from a relatively early age aiming for something tricky to get, and the more years you put in the more you feel obliged to commit to it because it requires sacrifice at a time when others were enjoying themselves at an age when you should be enjoying yourself. But then if you discovered that you didn’t want it, it is a very hard decision to pull away. For many people, there are pressures from others as well. Mum and dad have got you off their books at last and encourage you to knuckle down and put the nose to grindstone. Fear of judgement from people you told you were becoming a lawyer. They all don’t want to hear that you want to chuck it all away. Leaving is courageous.
Then further up the tree you are committed to professional life there is a nasty habit in all organisations - whether chambers or law firm - of seeding propaganda myths that there is nothing else outside and if you leave the organisation you will drop off the edge of the Earth. All other firms have nothing but bog roll and tampon manufacturer clients and abuse their staff and pay them peanuts. There is a captive and addictive element encouraged by management. There is too much corporate group think. You are distanced from the world out there bit by bit until you believe there isnt one or it is not for you.
With both of those in mind the Young lawyer mutes the. voice inside which says I don’t want to do this. Stoic mind says this is just the doubting voice and it needs to be conquered. Addict mind says this is the language of competition and you are in the right place because there is nothing better so don’t listen.
Self-confidence does not grow in that situation as it should do as you grow. In fact, it dwindles and you become enslaved. You begin to believe that being a lawyer defines you because you cannot remember when you weren’t one. You begin to believe that you’re not capable of doing anything else and the issue of giving up and trying something perfectly straightforward like working in the restaurant or doing a trade or craft is beyond you. That is complete and utter nonsense and the logic of the depressed and abused.
Law gaslights the young. Only the manicly self assured (delusionally confident fools) or the lucky blessed few don’t have to grapple with this.
The truth is that change is really good for the mind and soul. It is good for you and your relationships with those around you. It is never irreversible despite what all the doubting Thomases say. Experience beyond the narrow professional world is of value to the narrow professional mind because it broadens the horizons but even if you don’t go back to that it is still good to have many arrows in your quiver.
People need to do what they want to do rather than what they feel obliged to do, either by themselves or their families or the society around them.
In every environment I have worked as a lawyer there has always been a general current of dissonant reassurance that everything is fine and everybody just has to keep sticking to it or the project will go pop. The sheep look about them to find a look of reassurance on one another's face. See also constant drinks and banter and general ‘isn’t this greeeeaaat’ bollox said with a Wallace and Gromit worry face.
People who make a bold break need congratulating not judging. It is easier to stay and not heed the voices.
If only my parents had a handy easy job for me. Dad offered me one once but I turned out it down as it was a in a field that I know nothing about and have no interest in and I would have been the only person in senior management who wasn't a member of the other family that owned the majority of the business so not really an easy job at all.
There is a bit of sociological research to do about this.
WW2 babies grew into deprived adulthood in the 50s in the UK and grabbed at professional life and hard work dedication. Their parents and grandparents were involved in industry and trade in a turbulent interwar era in the first half of the century. The Great War decimated the workforce and economic uncertainty destabilised the 20s and 30s. They wished for more for their offspring and they scrimped and saved and got their young through University and into the sunlit uplands of law, accountancy and finance. That is the age that topped out in the 80s/early 90s having done very well and having been involved in the professional revolution of the second half of the 20th C. They in turn thought this was a personal duty and obligation. They impressed on their children that hefty commitment and sacrifice was what it was all about. We in turn swallowed that. Our children are now the age we were when our parents were retiring and we were setting out. Our children see two or more generations having hollowed themselves out for the corporation - they repudiate that as they don't think it did us any good. But it is easy for them to say that from the comparative advantage point of affluence. There is a risk that our society will go from rags to riches and back to rags in three or four generations.
Good point Muttley but I think it missed the element that your children's generation will be painfully aware that unless they were born to pre-existing wealth or power, they will never reach the same heady heights of affluence or living standards as your generation has done and will in all likelihood, never enjoy the same standard of retirement (if they get to retire at all).
That realisation tends to blunt one's edge when it comes to killing yourself for a company.
You say that in general but there are some careers now that pay vastly more than paid back in our parents' day even allowing for inflation and which are now more open. I have a number of friends in middling to senior roles in banks who are earning vastly more than my old man made as a director of a listed company back in the 70's.
Sails, I think the key word there in your response is "some".
You have a number of friends who are in middle to senior roles who are earning more than it was normal to earn in the 70's. Perhaps your grouping is too small a sample size?
The converse is that I have a lot of friends who are hard working, in low to middle roles who are proportionately able to afford far less than previous generations and in some cases unable to afford housing, struggling with rent and don't put money into their pension so that they can afford to live at the present. I myself am lucky enough to be an upper middle role and I am finding it pretty tough at the moment.
yes, I agree with that Sneak as a matter of perception but actually the worst enemy of success is oneself if you feel that the battle is not worth engaging in because it will be difficult to succeed. That approach guarantees the inevitability of failure. It is not correct to say there is no prospect for anyone of that generation of wealth. I accept that costs of living are so disproportionate to the earning power of so many but I do not agree that this means everyone should give up on the notion of even trying.
I think Bertha, elsewhere, has spoken very eloquently of a generation's almost complete lack of purpose. Purposelessness is the toxic parent of all sorts of ills. One can be purposeful in many ways without wealth being a key essential ingredient of the recipe. Purpose is so important to mental wellbeing and lack of it dissolves everything and spawns futility, depression, addiction.
If there is a value in professional life it is a sense of purpose. A sense that you have to get up and get on to meet the needs of others or achieve a professional standard - doctor, lawyer etc - overcomes short term whys. It overcomes the McDonalds BUrgerflipper test lawyers often talk about (the earning per hour of work thing). It makes difficult days achievable by reference to a longer term achievement.
But if that is missing in the job you do then fine, change. Find purpose.
What's the point of working hard if you still can't afford your bills, your rent, a car etc?
Unless you have wealthy parents you have no chance nowadays
Tories and boomers at fault. It's basically going back to the Victorian times of rich land owners and poor people begging for scraps (with a large dose of racism)
Let's tax the lot and reduce inequality
Then you might find these 'lazy' millennials and gen z actually engage with you
Sneak my point was that there are now far more finance and related service sector jobs that pay big salaries than were available for our parents so a number of the younger population will still far exceed their parents. The problem comes for the people outside those areas where salaries have dropped comparatively such as PR where in the 60's my mum could afford a shared flat in Knightsbridge on her salary as new girl in PR with no degree.
I hope that part of the problem will be solved by the worst of the nimby generation who made wealthy by their homes dying off so that we can get building as we need to.
Middle class millennials have BOMAD, and cheerfully surrendered their personalities to the authoritarianism bestowed by iPhones and social media, with which they cheerfully bully anyone who doesn’t conform, whilst simultaneously being incapable of coping with any sort of adversity at all. When they’re not wailing into the abyss.
Wealth is not and should not be the be all and end all. I have tried to live my life by the maxim that if all you want is money, all you will get it money.
Nevertheless, it is very sad state affairs that any individual, let alone a generation, might determine that wealth cannot be generated by hard work. And it is a self-fulfilling prophecy because wealth certainly cannot be generated by lying around feeling sorry for oneself.
I am the first to admit that I have had many advantages (loving, educated parents, a good education, qualification into a booming market for English law advisors), but every single one of the many pennies that I now have has been generated by my own work, effort and application. I have no particular skills or talents, other than the ability and willingness to work like a donkey.
I’m not criticising anyone as purposeless. I am identifying that it is very hard for this generation to have purpose and if you lose purpose or you have a sense of futility due to economic impossibility or environmental catastrophe or whatever the reason then a lot more is lost.
I am not a millennial.
But apart from all of that, I think I understand what you were saying.
Kids come out of uni with near 6 figures of debt, compete wildly for rubbish jobs on shit pay to not be able to afford a shit room in a shit house share somewhere shit and they look up and see nothing inspiring in the work place because it’s all grey faces churning the grind to pay the mortgage or snark a colleague to get more money to pay more mortgage and then die before you enjoy any of it - if indeed you have anything and don’t end up eating dog food or dying dribbling in a care home
You could steel yourself to read it. or you could ignore it - there are two ideas.
I see detail and I know that this annoys everybody and all my life I’ve been told I Wang on too much, and all my professional working life I’ve been told that the density of my written work makes peoples teeth itch. I know. but please let me put it a different way and you can see whether you can accommodate this in your simpler world:
My mind measures in tiny degrees. There was a difference between saying something one way and saying something in 1° of difference to that and they both have equal validity and independent relevance. It is no doubt a byproduct of my neuro divergent and weird brain. I’m sorry if it inconveniences you. Sometimes it has value because I can parse things. Watt may appear to most people to be beige in fact breaks down into a range of different shades and colours for me which I like to articulate.
OB I think part of the problem too is that careers advice comes from teachers who've generally only taught and persuade kids they must go to uni to get a good job because they're not aware that lots of careers now offer apprenticeships to school leavers. I was amazed at my own school that given all the alumni links they had our careers service was still run by teachers who knew exactly what it took to get onto a law degree at Oxford but had no idea what would actually make you a decent lawyer in practice. From what I've seen they are now better at getting big employers to come to the school and tell the kids what's involved in accountancy and the like and the possible entry routes but it's taken 30 years to get there.
I think part of the problem too is that careers advice comes from teachers who've generally only taught and persuade kids they must go to uni to get a good job because they're not aware that lots of careers now offer apprenticeships to school leavers.
Perhaps 30 years ago but but not now. It's all: have you thought about the local FE colleges? T Levels? Apprenticeships? Degree apprenticeships? Or yeah, you could go to university. And it's delivered by careers advisers certainly at our local secondary schools.
Butternut took one of those Morrisby(?) careers tests at school and it suggested careers adviser as one of the options. The careers adviser looked at the results and told her she was too smart to be a careers adviser.
its all different now. My nephew wanted to "design" computer games but he literally could not be arsed to look into it so isnt doing that and won't be doing that in the future.
Things are skewed today by the eye-watering earnings that those at the top earn.
Back in the day, there was something like a maximum of about 20x the income from the lowest to the highest paid person in any non-PLC outfit - and I dare say a few listed companies as well.
And in the public sector the old style ‘Town Clerk’ ie. CEO, of a decent sized local council would be on no more than 5x what the dinner lady was on.
Getting back to the Pubs, I’ve acted for a number of Publicans and Owners of small restaurants over the years, and can confirm that the hours you need to put in just to get a reasonable sort of ‘salary’ - forget a return on investment- is eye-watering.
Add in the unsocial hours, the need to be tethered to your place virtually 24/7, and the high risk of becoming an alcoholic, and it is truly only for the demented.
The problem comes for the people outside those areas where salaries have dropped comparatively such as PR where in the 60's my mum could afford a shared flat in Knightsbridge on her salary as new girl in PR with no degree
I think the most impactful moving part here is rents and property prices, not salaries.
It’s a combination as both as even in 2000 I earned much more than my mum at a similar point but couldn’t afford anywhere in central London and it’s just got worse. Hopefully Keir will get us building and encourage the old to move out of houses and into flats.
AI is better than you, how about something AI can’t do yet like wipe arses for minimum wage? Hope mum and dad managed to put enough by to get you a little flat in Hartlepool
its all different now. My nephew wanted to "design" computer games but he literally could not be arsed to look into it so isnt doing that and won't be doing that in the future.
“I see detail and I know that this annoys everybody and all my life I’ve been told I Wang on too much, and all my professional working life I’ve been told that the density of my written work makes peoples teeth itch.”
Same same m88. Thankfully I have of late found clients who actually appreciate my attention to detail and my willingness to talk them through it. Detail matters. Never lose sight of that or allow others to denigrate. I actively despise people who don’t see the importance of detail. Always remember - it’s basically because they’re stupid.
AI will destroy many jobs but create many more because it will expand what it is possible. The effect of most technology is to lever human labour, making it more productive.
Is it more productive though to sit at a desk and stare into the void of a screen for 12-14 hours a day and only interact with people via a screen wherein you’ve never actually met your colleagues and are together alone
Are they better jobs than ones with eye contact and connection and lunch and physical tiredness ? Are they progress and innovation or just like an outtake of severance
Although I am sceptical that AI will reduce the total number of human jobs to a problematic degree, I agree with OB that jobs are becoming shittified by tech, although to me that’s more about working from home (which has a substantial human choice element to it) than about AI.
I'm looking forward to a second career of something that makes me physically tired as I then find it so much easier to sleep. Lawyering I end up feeling tired because my brain has been overused but my body is otherwise sitting there thinking it's barely done anything so doesn't need sleep.
“I see detail and I know that this annoys everybody and all my life I’ve been told I Wang on too much, and all my professional working life I’ve been told that the density of my written work makes peoples teeth itch.”
Same same m88. Thankfully I have of late found clients who actually appreciate my attention to detail and my willingness to talk them through it. Detail matters. Never lose sight of that or allow others to denigrate. I actively despise people who don’t see the importance of detail. Always remember - it’s basically because they’re stupid.
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Excellent, makes a bit of space.
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Why do so many lawyers think you have to have done NINE YEARS PQE to be capable of doing something
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most people with a decent work ethic and a reasonable level of emotional intelligence could do this.
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She has neither.
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See also the lawyer quitting to start a salad bar getting no further than working in Pret to get some experience in the sector. You can always tell the ones who didn’t have to do Saturday jobs as kids.
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If you don’t mind me saying, you come across as a rather embittered individual, blair
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Good luck to anyway who gives something new a go. Too many people have THE FEAR and stick to what they know to their detriment.
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M7 of mine (Dave) did a lot of licensing work and had a hundred horror stories about people with no experience (being being drunks and/or fatties) opening pubs and restaurants. People spending £500k on refurbing leasehold properties to look like the set of Footballer’s Wives and going under before they had even opened the doors
But if isn’t her money then 🤷♂️
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It’s also being stuck at a screen 10 hours a day. That is very weird and we are trapped in it.
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Dalek you sound like my current wife.
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of the businesses that people think they would enjoy; running a pub is one of the hardest in terms of graft required.
the fantasy is as publican propping up the end of the bar holding court and counting the cash. The reality is late nights / early mornings 7 days a week for minimum wage.
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If I went into the hospitality trade, I'd retrain as a sommelier and move to France or work at a wine merchant in la Gironde, or somewhere in the Med; anywhere between Monpellier to Cannes (and not Marseiile).
Deffo not a pub. Having to deal with oiks. I like footy, but not watching it in pubs in Britain.
Restaurant trade is incredibly stressful, has very narrow margins and a high failure rate.
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how hard is it to manage a restaurant fgs
oh laz oh laz it’s really difficult, hey laz you just try [stuff that doesn’t actually sound that difficult] rather than just [insert self hating lawyer guff belittling what is actually the very challenging role of commercial lawyer]
yeah yeah do one
she’ll probably do fine and if she doesn’t initially she surely will after she’s got a bit of an experience
everyone starts with no experience, you do realise that
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Parsnip sounds like Mark Corrigan shitting on Jez's fantasy of getting paid to be in the pub by living relentlessly in the real world
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running a pub does sound like hard work indeed
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Running a restaurant is very similar. Up at dawn to get to markets for the best fresh produce and finish work in the small hours once you’ve cleaned up and cashed up. Definitely not a job for anyone who likes sleeping.
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The fundamental thing that puts me off any role in hospitality is the customers. Why anyone would choose a role dealing face to face with the public is beyond me.
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Blair09 Apr 24 19:21
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She has neither.
Perhaps not evident in a profession she wants out of. How is she likely to demonstrate those attributes in a role she does not like? Give her a break.
The trouble with law is manifold. Here are some examples.
It requires a long run up so you invest a great deal of your time from a relatively early age aiming for something tricky to get, and the more years you put in the more you feel obliged to commit to it because it requires sacrifice at a time when others were enjoying themselves at an age when you should be enjoying yourself. But then if you discovered that you didn’t want it, it is a very hard decision to pull away. For many people, there are pressures from others as well. Mum and dad have got you off their books at last and encourage you to knuckle down and put the nose to grindstone. Fear of judgement from people you told you were becoming a lawyer. They all don’t want to hear that you want to chuck it all away. Leaving is courageous.
Then further up the tree you are committed to professional life there is a nasty habit in all organisations - whether chambers or law firm - of seeding propaganda myths that there is nothing else outside and if you leave the organisation you will drop off the edge of the Earth. All other firms have nothing but bog roll and tampon manufacturer clients and abuse their staff and pay them peanuts. There is a captive and addictive element encouraged by management. There is too much corporate group think. You are distanced from the world out there bit by bit until you believe there isnt one or it is not for you.
With both of those in mind the Young lawyer mutes the. voice inside which says I don’t want to do this. Stoic mind says this is just the doubting voice and it needs to be conquered. Addict mind says this is the language of competition and you are in the right place because there is nothing better so don’t listen.
Self-confidence does not grow in that situation as it should do as you grow. In fact, it dwindles and you become enslaved. You begin to believe that being a lawyer defines you because you cannot remember when you weren’t one. You begin to believe that you’re not capable of doing anything else and the issue of giving up and trying something perfectly straightforward like working in the restaurant or doing a trade or craft is beyond you. That is complete and utter nonsense and the logic of the depressed and abused.
Law gaslights the young. Only the manicly self assured (delusionally confident fools) or the lucky blessed few don’t have to grapple with this.
The truth is that change is really good for the mind and soul. It is good for you and your relationships with those around you. It is never irreversible despite what all the doubting Thomases say. Experience beyond the narrow professional world is of value to the narrow professional mind because it broadens the horizons but even if you don’t go back to that it is still good to have many arrows in your quiver.
People need to do what they want to do rather than what they feel obliged to do, either by themselves or their families or the society around them.
In every environment I have worked as a lawyer there has always been a general current of dissonant reassurance that everything is fine and everybody just has to keep sticking to it or the project will go pop. The sheep look about them to find a look of reassurance on one another's face. See also constant drinks and banter and general ‘isn’t this greeeeaaat’ bollox said with a Wallace and Gromit worry face.
People who make a bold break need congratulating not judging. It is easier to stay and not heed the voices.
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people think that because they have a great time being in a pub, they'd like to run one.
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Pub management - largely about trying to prevent the staff nicking the cash and most of the stock.
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People with rich parents leave tough jobs for easy life non shocka
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If only my parents had a handy easy job for me. Dad offered me one once but I turned out it down as it was a in a field that I know nothing about and have no interest in and I would have been the only person in senior management who wasn't a member of the other family that owned the majority of the business so not really an easy job at all.
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There is a bit of sociological research to do about this.
WW2 babies grew into deprived adulthood in the 50s in the UK and grabbed at professional life and hard work dedication. Their parents and grandparents were involved in industry and trade in a turbulent interwar era in the first half of the century. The Great War decimated the workforce and economic uncertainty destabilised the 20s and 30s. They wished for more for their offspring and they scrimped and saved and got their young through University and into the sunlit uplands of law, accountancy and finance. That is the age that topped out in the 80s/early 90s having done very well and having been involved in the professional revolution of the second half of the 20th C. They in turn thought this was a personal duty and obligation. They impressed on their children that hefty commitment and sacrifice was what it was all about. We in turn swallowed that. Our children are now the age we were when our parents were retiring and we were setting out. Our children see two or more generations having hollowed themselves out for the corporation - they repudiate that as they don't think it did us any good. But it is easy for them to say that from the comparative advantage point of affluence. There is a risk that our society will go from rags to riches and back to rags in three or four generations.
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As I was saying on another thread
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Good point Muttley but I think it missed the element that your children's generation will be painfully aware that unless they were born to pre-existing wealth or power, they will never reach the same heady heights of affluence or living standards as your generation has done and will in all likelihood, never enjoy the same standard of retirement (if they get to retire at all).
That realisation tends to blunt one's edge when it comes to killing yourself for a company.
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You say that in general but there are some careers now that pay vastly more than paid back in our parents' day even allowing for inflation and which are now more open. I have a number of friends in middling to senior roles in banks who are earning vastly more than my old man made as a director of a listed company back in the 70's.
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I've done twice that and I can't run a bath.
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Sails, I think the key word there in your response is "some".
You have a number of friends who are in middle to senior roles who are earning more than it was normal to earn in the 70's. Perhaps your grouping is too small a sample size?
The converse is that I have a lot of friends who are hard working, in low to middle roles who are proportionately able to afford far less than previous generations and in some cases unable to afford housing, struggling with rent and don't put money into their pension so that they can afford to live at the present. I myself am lucky enough to be an upper middle role and I am finding it pretty tough at the moment.
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yes, I agree with that Sneak as a matter of perception but actually the worst enemy of success is oneself if you feel that the battle is not worth engaging in because it will be difficult to succeed. That approach guarantees the inevitability of failure. It is not correct to say there is no prospect for anyone of that generation of wealth. I accept that costs of living are so disproportionate to the earning power of so many but I do not agree that this means everyone should give up on the notion of even trying.
I think Bertha, elsewhere, has spoken very eloquently of a generation's almost complete lack of purpose. Purposelessness is the toxic parent of all sorts of ills. One can be purposeful in many ways without wealth being a key essential ingredient of the recipe. Purpose is so important to mental wellbeing and lack of it dissolves everything and spawns futility, depression, addiction.
If there is a value in professional life it is a sense of purpose. A sense that you have to get up and get on to meet the needs of others or achieve a professional standard - doctor, lawyer etc - overcomes short term whys. It overcomes the McDonalds BUrgerflipper test lawyers often talk about (the earning per hour of work thing). It makes difficult days achievable by reference to a longer term achievement.
But if that is missing in the job you do then fine, change. Find purpose.
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What's the point of working hard if you still can't afford your bills, your rent, a car etc?
Unless you have wealthy parents you have no chance nowadays
Tories and boomers at fault. It's basically going back to the Victorian times of rich land owners and poor people begging for scraps (with a large dose of racism)
Let's tax the lot and reduce inequality
Then you might find these 'lazy' millennials and gen z actually engage with you
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Sneak my point was that there are now far more finance and related service sector jobs that pay big salaries than were available for our parents so a number of the younger population will still far exceed their parents. The problem comes for the people outside those areas where salaries have dropped comparatively such as PR where in the 60's my mum could afford a shared flat in Knightsbridge on her salary as new girl in PR with no degree.
I hope that part of the problem will be solved by the worst of the nimby generation who made wealthy by their homes dying off so that we can get building as we need to.
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i am not calling anyone lazy
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you are agreeing with cookie that millennials are purposeless tho
which is wrong
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also you are a borderline millennial yourself
which always surprises me when I remember cos you rof like an elder statesman
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Middle class millennials have BOMAD, and cheerfully surrendered their personalities to the authoritarianism bestowed by iPhones and social media, with which they cheerfully bully anyone who doesn’t conform, whilst simultaneously being incapable of coping with any sort of adversity at all. When they’re not wailing into the abyss.
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ur a weird guy but whatever
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Wealth is not and should not be the be all and end all. I have tried to live my life by the maxim that if all you want is money, all you will get it money.
Nevertheless, it is very sad state affairs that any individual, let alone a generation, might determine that wealth cannot be generated by hard work. And it is a self-fulfilling prophecy because wealth certainly cannot be generated by lying around feeling sorry for oneself.
I am the first to admit that I have had many advantages (loving, educated parents, a good education, qualification into a booming market for English law advisors), but every single one of the many pennies that I now have has been generated by my own work, effort and application. I have no particular skills or talents, other than the ability and willingness to work like a donkey.
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Law used to be:
Now it's:
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Are you addressing me above, Clergs?
If so
I am not talking about millennials here
I am talking about gen z I think
I’m not criticising anyone as purposeless. I am identifying that it is very hard for this generation to have purpose and if you lose purpose or you have a sense of futility due to economic impossibility or environmental catastrophe or whatever the reason then a lot more is lost.
I am not a millennial.
But apart from all of that, I think I understand what you were saying.
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Muttley, I love you, but I do wish some of your posts came with a TLDR
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Kids come out of uni with near 6 figures of debt, compete wildly for rubbish jobs on shit pay to not be able to afford a shit room in a shit house share somewhere shit and they look up and see nothing inspiring in the work place because it’s all grey faces churning the grind to pay the mortgage or snark a colleague to get more money to pay more mortgage and then die before you enjoy any of it - if indeed you have anything and don’t end up eating dog food or dying dribbling in a care home
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You could steel yourself to read it. or you could ignore it - there are two ideas.
I see detail and I know that this annoys everybody and all my life I’ve been told I Wang on too much, and all my professional working life I’ve been told that the density of my written work makes peoples teeth itch. I know. but please let me put it a different way and you can see whether you can accommodate this in your simpler world:
My mind measures in tiny degrees. There was a difference between saying something one way and saying something in 1° of difference to that and they both have equal validity and independent relevance. It is no doubt a byproduct of my neuro divergent and weird brain. I’m sorry if it inconveniences you. Sometimes it has value because I can parse things. Watt may appear to most people to be beige in fact breaks down into a range of different shades and colours for me which I like to articulate.
Sorry if that was too long.
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Autocorrect nonsense
What not watt
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Be your own wind keeper mutters, you’re alright. Thought of you when listening to the archers.
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Again, TLDR.
Kinda the point of TLDR.
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OB I think part of the problem too is that careers advice comes from teachers who've generally only taught and persuade kids they must go to uni to get a good job because they're not aware that lots of careers now offer apprenticeships to school leavers. I was amazed at my own school that given all the alumni links they had our careers service was still run by teachers who knew exactly what it took to get onto a law degree at Oxford but had no idea what would actually make you a decent lawyer in practice. From what I've seen they are now better at getting big employers to come to the school and tell the kids what's involved in accountancy and the like and the possible entry routes but it's taken 30 years to get there.
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Again DGAFF
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TSDR PTSD SMB SVP
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I think part of the problem too is that careers advice comes from teachers who've generally only taught and persuade kids they must go to uni to get a good job because they're not aware that lots of careers now offer apprenticeships to school leavers.
Perhaps 30 years ago but but not now. It's all: have you thought about the local FE colleges? T Levels? Apprenticeships? Degree apprenticeships? Or yeah, you could go to university. And it's delivered by careers advisers certainly at our local secondary schools.
Butternut took one of those Morrisby(?) careers tests at school and it suggested careers adviser as one of the options. The careers adviser looked at the results and told her she was too smart to be a careers adviser.
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its all different now. My nephew wanted to "design" computer games but he literally could not be arsed to look into it so isnt doing that and won't be doing that in the future.
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Maybe he can be a youtuber. That pays well.
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Things are skewed today by the eye-watering earnings that those at the top earn.
Back in the day, there was something like a maximum of about 20x the income from the lowest to the highest paid person in any non-PLC outfit - and I dare say a few listed companies as well.
And in the public sector the old style ‘Town Clerk’ ie. CEO, of a decent sized local council would be on no more than 5x what the dinner lady was on.
Nowadays you can add a Zero to both comparables.
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We’re back in the 18th century, best get used to it.
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Getting back to the Pubs, I’ve acted for a number of Publicans and Owners of small restaurants over the years, and can confirm that the hours you need to put in just to get a reasonable sort of ‘salary’ - forget a return on investment- is eye-watering.
Add in the unsocial hours, the need to be tethered to your place virtually 24/7, and the high risk of becoming an alcoholic, and it is truly only for the demented.
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But what about all the beautiful British beer? All hail to the ale!
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I think the most impactful moving part here is rents and property prices, not salaries.
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It’s a combination as both as even in 2000 I earned much more than my mum at a similar point but couldn’t afford anywhere in central London and it’s just got worse. Hopefully Keir will get us building and encourage the old to move out of houses and into flats.
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How can a career advisor really spin :
AI is better than you, how about something AI can’t do yet like wipe arses for minimum wage? Hope mum and dad managed to put enough by to get you a little flat in Hartlepool
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TSDR PTSD SMB SVP
What does this mean?
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I think it may end Suck My Bellend S’il Vous Plaites
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Parsnip10 Apr 24 16:56
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its all different now. My nephew wanted to "design" computer games but he literally could not be arsed to look into it so isnt doing that and won't be doing that in the future.
Heh
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My careers quiz suggested tree surgeon despite my hatred of heights but can't see AI taking that over for a while.
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“I see detail and I know that this annoys everybody and all my life I’ve been told I Wang on too much, and all my professional working life I’ve been told that the density of my written work makes peoples teeth itch.”
Same same m88. Thankfully I have of late found clients who actually appreciate my attention to detail and my willingness to talk them through it. Detail matters. Never lose sight of that or allow others to denigrate. I actively despise people who don’t see the importance of detail. Always remember - it’s basically because they’re stupid.
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AI will destroy many jobs but create many more because it will expand what it is possible. The effect of most technology is to lever human labour, making it more productive.
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Is it more productive though to sit at a desk and stare into the void of a screen for 12-14 hours a day and only interact with people via a screen wherein you’ve never actually met your colleagues and are together alone
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Are they better jobs than ones with eye contact and connection and lunch and physical tiredness ? Are they progress and innovation or just like an outtake of severance
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14 hours!!! bloody hell
personally, I don't want work to make me physically tired and expose me to the social awkwardness, smells and viruses of randoms
I like sitting on my comfy chair, doing my interesting thinking, logging off at 5 and going to the gym or pub
I could do this until I am 75 (assuming I don't get old people brain problems before then which I might)
I have work friends whom I will meet irl but I have no desire to elevate any of the rest beyond "avatar I must do combat with sometimes"
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Although I am sceptical that AI will reduce the total number of human jobs to a problematic degree, I agree with OB that jobs are becoming shittified by tech, although to me that’s more about working from home (which has a substantial human choice element to it) than about AI.
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I'm looking forward to a second career of something that makes me physically tired as I then find it so much easier to sleep. Lawyering I end up feeling tired because my brain has been overused but my body is otherwise sitting there thinking it's barely done anything so doesn't need sleep.
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Sir Woke XR Remainer FBPE MBE11 Apr 24 09:43
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“I see detail and I know that this annoys everybody and all my life I’ve been told I Wang on too much, and all my professional working life I’ve been told that the density of my written work makes peoples teeth itch.”
Same same m88. Thankfully I have of late found clients who actually appreciate my attention to detail and my willingness to talk them through it. Detail matters. Never lose sight of that or allow others to denigrate. I actively despise people who don’t see the importance of detail. Always remember - it’s basically because they’re stupid.
exactly
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What Sails says. Am planning transitioning to a career that is based on physical movement or work.
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Wot Marshall said.
The eye-watering salaries of some individuals is really obscene.
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