Do you thing it’s wise to drink more expensive wine as you yourself age? What’s the appropriate ratchet? ;)
Always found £20-30 to be the sweet spot, beyond that I struggle to notice difference in quality and certainly not enough to justify paying significantly more
Definitely now in the "drink less but drink better" camp.
How many bottles do peeps have and where?
At the mo...
12 in storage with C&B
about 140 in wine fridge at home
336 in storage with BBR.
Not looking forward to my storage bill this year.
About 6 red, 6 white and 3 fizz in the cupboard.
Lots in free storage at the local Lidl.
I'm cheaper than Guy.
Just a handful of bottles in the garage to keep the mother going as I don't drink when I'm at home unless I've got guests.
My most expensive repeat tipple is Greywacke Pinot Gris or their Wild Sav, the latter quite an upmarket housewives' heroin. £20-25. But I really only get that because I'm a sucker for anything NZ with a bit of a story. Otherwise I can't say I consistently enjoy >£20 stuff more than £10-20. So sue me.
Sails, I am often to cheap to spend that much (can get very decent wines in Aldi and Lidl in particulkar for far less) but I think that is the sweet spot when pushing the boat out a bit.
How long do you typically keep stuff before drinking? I struggle to plan more than a month ahead so do not have a supply of bought cheaply drink later and well to hand
TBH most en primeur is overpriced relative to back vintages generally and most recent back vintages are overpriced relative to older back vintages so there's not much point trying to buy cheap and lay down at the moment in the hope of getting a bargain now and being able to put it on the table in 5 or 10 years when the retail price has doubled. It's just not happening. Only yesterday had a client write a scathing review of a producer's en primeur pricing where better vintages of that wine are selling at a discount to what they want for the most recent one. Fine wine market's been in the doldrums for 3 years. My dreams of early retirement funded by flogging cheaply bought classed Bordeaux to our future Chinese overlords at a massive profit are on hold.
Less but higher quality.
The latest - Opus One 2000 on the weekend. Perfection.
Cheers Buzz. Literally
Probably around 40 in the wine fridge in the cellar. A dozen in the fridge in the kitchen. And maybe 70 -odd in racks in the cellar. More than I thought.
Bugger dry-Jan, I've a wine lake out sort out.
I just do wine by the glass at Wetherspoon.
"Fine wine market's been in the doldrums for 3 years."
My theory is that there is now such plethora of information out there about the Emperors New Clothes nature of much of the fine wine market that it is probably never going to recover. It relied on arcane lore and mystery to hide the fact that most fine wine buyers were to a very large extent paying for branding (with equally good less premium branded wines available at a fraction of the cost) and that has largely now been unshrouded.
I'd never have guessed you would say that. Definitely not macroeconomic factors right. Anyhow, seems to be off the bottom now. Might take a long time to recover admittedly https://www.liv-ex.com/resources/indices/
Buzz, no definitely not macroeconomic factors because the vast majority of asset classes have increased significantly in value in the same period.
It’s like the art world. Equally full of bs and romance. Wish I’d run off and joined the circus.
It's a non-income producing asset in a high interest rate environment for cash and bonds.
It is certainly true to say that none of the fine wine experts are putting it down to the market being revealed as largely bunkum. But no real surprise there...
Nope, still a fan of two bottles of on offer Prosecco on a Friday night over a glass of the proper stuff
Not the only "no real surprise" on this thread then!
Feebs do you not find prosecco disgustingly sweet after the first glass or two?
@buzz, no. I have that issue with cava but not Prosecco.
But I don’t like the taste of any wine for the first glass, once I get through that it numbs the mouth
But why would you want a numb mouth?
It's a non-income producing asset in a high interest rate environment for cash and bonds.
So is BTC :)
Are we in a high interest rate environment (those of us that don’t live in Russia or Turkey)?
It isnt JCD. I have tried highly recommended very expensive wines in my time and the marginal gains over a well chosen bottle of £30 wine are very small in my view. The huge premiums have more to do with the label than the taste.
We are compared to when the market rocketed Canute, when money flooded into non-income bearing assets. In the decades before that, prices of wine in the secondary market fairly consistently increased over time. Since then, really starting since 2017, and as mentioned above, producers have increasingly taken the piss with their release prices, increasing prices consistently year on year when the quality didn't justify it (as I noted above) and demand has been depressed due to income bearing opportunities which didn't exist between 2008 and 2022 again becoming available. More recently US tariffs have dampened demand in a major market, Chinese buying dropped off after a decade and a half of demand which wasn't there in any significant amount before.
Plenty of macro factors at play. No doubt whatsoever people are for a large part paying for prestige but then they always have done and even at current subdued prices they still are. Nothing has been "unshrouded", people have had access to multiple critics' scores for decades, no one is suddenly realising that "hey this £100 bottle isn't twice as good as a £50 one, I'm being had". Well maybe idiots are suddenly getting that thought. Pricing is pretty much to back to where it was in 2020 per the Liv-ex Fine Wine 100 and 1000 (though not in the Liv-ex 50).
I take your points Buzz, I think there has been a fundamental change to a degree because I think given open access social media far more wine critics are making a living being honest rather than playing along with a lot of the pretense such that is no longer as fashionable in wealthy circles to splurge on labels (this admittedly reflects I think a general trend in luxury goods). There are of course I accept other factors.
I would say that pricing at 2020 levels is about 25% down on 2020 given inflation since then.
Wine critics are a funny bunch. You've got people like James Suckling who is a South Americanophile who almost invariably rates SA wines higher than any other critic. Needless to say he's adored by SA producers.
China is an interesting one. They intro'd tariffs on Aus wine of up to 200% a few years ago (since removed) and with that one of the biggest export markets for Aus quality wine vanished pretty much overnight for several years. There's plenty of speculation as to why the Chinese were buying so much high end stuff between say 2004 and 2018, how much of that was "gifts" to potential business partners which has now been cracked down on? And of course the Chinese are also trying to develop their own production (and at the top end some of it ain't bad apparently - I suppose in the country of that size you're bound to find some suitable areas for top quality viniculture)
Had some very nice Chinese wines indeed at a posh dinner at the Icon in HK a few years ago.
Guy - on what planet is it less fashionable in wealthy circles to splurge on labels? The UK is kinda broke and so a bit like in the 70s there is a certain hair shirt aesthetic but globally, luxury generally is just going from strength to strength with multi year wait lists to even be allowed to buy luxury watches and bags and cars. All those things suffer from at least as much of the 'the expensive stuff is no better than the cheaper stuff' as wine does.
The world is only getting more unequal and the 'haves' show no sign of stopping wanting to flash their cash on pointless sh1t.
As Buzz says the issue is (mainly) that there were some particular factors and fashions driving demand from China that have now subsided. That may or may not come back.
Killer article from Jancis in weekend edition FT
(I said as much in the comments below it (where I go by the name B. B. Queen))
In respect of which cars and bags are there waiting lists?
Always found £20-30 to be the sweet spot, beyond that I struggle to notice difference in quality and certainly not enough to justify paying significantly more
Definitely now in the "drink less but drink better" camp.
How many bottles do peeps have and where?
At the mo...
12 in storage with C&B
about 140 in wine fridge at home
336 in storage with BBR.
Not looking forward to my storage bill this year.
About 6 red, 6 white and 3 fizz in the cupboard.
Lots in free storage at the local Lidl.
I'm cheaper than Guy.
Just a handful of bottles in the garage to keep the mother going as I don't drink when I'm at home unless I've got guests.
My most expensive repeat tipple is Greywacke Pinot Gris or their Wild Sav, the latter quite an upmarket housewives' heroin. £20-25. But I really only get that because I'm a sucker for anything NZ with a bit of a story. Otherwise I can't say I consistently enjoy >£20 stuff more than £10-20. So sue me.
Sails, I am often to cheap to spend that much (can get very decent wines in Aldi and Lidl in particulkar for far less) but I think that is the sweet spot when pushing the boat out a bit.
How long do you typically keep stuff before drinking? I struggle to plan more than a month ahead so do not have a supply of bought cheaply drink later and well to hand
TBH most en primeur is overpriced relative to back vintages generally and most recent back vintages are overpriced relative to older back vintages so there's not much point trying to buy cheap and lay down at the moment in the hope of getting a bargain now and being able to put it on the table in 5 or 10 years when the retail price has doubled. It's just not happening. Only yesterday had a client write a scathing review of a producer's en primeur pricing where better vintages of that wine are selling at a discount to what they want for the most recent one. Fine wine market's been in the doldrums for 3 years. My dreams of early retirement funded by flogging cheaply bought classed Bordeaux to our future Chinese overlords at a massive profit are on hold.
Less but higher quality.
The latest - Opus One 2000 on the weekend. Perfection.
Cheers Buzz. Literally
Probably around 40 in the wine fridge in the cellar. A dozen in the fridge in the kitchen. And maybe 70 -odd in racks in the cellar. More than I thought.
Bugger dry-Jan, I've a wine lake out sort out.
I just do wine by the glass at Wetherspoon.
"Fine wine market's been in the doldrums for 3 years."
My theory is that there is now such plethora of information out there about the Emperors New Clothes nature of much of the fine wine market that it is probably never going to recover. It relied on arcane lore and mystery to hide the fact that most fine wine buyers were to a very large extent paying for branding (with equally good less premium branded wines available at a fraction of the cost) and that has largely now been unshrouded.
I'd never have guessed you would say that. Definitely not macroeconomic factors right. Anyhow, seems to be off the bottom now. Might take a long time to recover admittedly https://www.liv-ex.com/resources/indices/
Buzz, no definitely not macroeconomic factors because the vast majority of asset classes have increased significantly in value in the same period.
It’s like the art world. Equally full of bs and romance. Wish I’d run off and joined the circus.
It's a non-income producing asset in a high interest rate environment for cash and bonds.
It is certainly true to say that none of the fine wine experts are putting it down to the market being revealed as largely bunkum. But no real surprise there...
Nope, still a fan of two bottles of on offer Prosecco on a Friday night over a glass of the proper stuff
Not the only "no real surprise" on this thread then!
Feebs do you not find prosecco disgustingly sweet after the first glass or two?
@buzz, no. I have that issue with cava but not Prosecco.
But I don’t like the taste of any wine for the first glass, once I get through that it numbs the mouth
But why would you want a numb mouth?
So is BTC :)
Are we in a high interest rate environment (those of us that don’t live in Russia or Turkey)?
https://www.global-rates.com/en/interest-rates/central-banks/
Guy - you need to drink moar winez
What you say is simply wrong.
It isnt JCD. I have tried highly recommended very expensive wines in my time and the marginal gains over a well chosen bottle of £30 wine are very small in my view. The huge premiums have more to do with the label than the taste.
We are compared to when the market rocketed Canute, when money flooded into non-income bearing assets. In the decades before that, prices of wine in the secondary market fairly consistently increased over time. Since then, really starting since 2017, and as mentioned above, producers have increasingly taken the piss with their release prices, increasing prices consistently year on year when the quality didn't justify it (as I noted above) and demand has been depressed due to income bearing opportunities which didn't exist between 2008 and 2022 again becoming available. More recently US tariffs have dampened demand in a major market, Chinese buying dropped off after a decade and a half of demand which wasn't there in any significant amount before.
Plenty of macro factors at play. No doubt whatsoever people are for a large part paying for prestige but then they always have done and even at current subdued prices they still are. Nothing has been "unshrouded", people have had access to multiple critics' scores for decades, no one is suddenly realising that "hey this £100 bottle isn't twice as good as a £50 one, I'm being had". Well maybe idiots are suddenly getting that thought. Pricing is pretty much to back to where it was in 2020 per the Liv-ex Fine Wine 100 and 1000 (though not in the Liv-ex 50).
I take your points Buzz, I think there has been a fundamental change to a degree because I think given open access social media far more wine critics are making a living being honest rather than playing along with a lot of the pretense such that is no longer as fashionable in wealthy circles to splurge on labels (this admittedly reflects I think a general trend in luxury goods). There are of course I accept other factors.
I would say that pricing at 2020 levels is about 25% down on 2020 given inflation since then.
Wine critics are a funny bunch. You've got people like James Suckling who is a South Americanophile who almost invariably rates SA wines higher than any other critic. Needless to say he's adored by SA producers.
China is an interesting one. They intro'd tariffs on Aus wine of up to 200% a few years ago (since removed) and with that one of the biggest export markets for Aus quality wine vanished pretty much overnight for several years. There's plenty of speculation as to why the Chinese were buying so much high end stuff between say 2004 and 2018, how much of that was "gifts" to potential business partners which has now been cracked down on? And of course the Chinese are also trying to develop their own production (and at the top end some of it ain't bad apparently - I suppose in the country of that size you're bound to find some suitable areas for top quality viniculture)
Had some very nice Chinese wines indeed at a posh dinner at the Icon in HK a few years ago.
Guy - on what planet is it less fashionable in wealthy circles to splurge on labels? The UK is kinda broke and so a bit like in the 70s there is a certain hair shirt aesthetic but globally, luxury generally is just going from strength to strength with multi year wait lists to even be allowed to buy luxury watches and bags and cars. All those things suffer from at least as much of the 'the expensive stuff is no better than the cheaper stuff' as wine does.
The world is only getting more unequal and the 'haves' show no sign of stopping wanting to flash their cash on pointless sh1t.
As Buzz says the issue is (mainly) that there were some particular factors and fashions driving demand from China that have now subsided. That may or may not come back.
Killer article from Jancis in weekend edition FT
(I said as much in the comments below it (where I go by the name B. B. Queen))
In respect of which cars and bags are there waiting lists?
Ferraris and Lamborghinis maybe, but bags?
Pretty much any Hermes bag
Wines and watches.
Willy waving wallies.
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