Will photo of drowned Oscar Ramirez and his daughter change anything

Do you think this will change anything? 


I imagine it will result in fewer people trying to get to America, yes.

Very sad, I had tears in my eyes when I read that this morning 

I don't think it will have any effect on people trying to get to the US given that on the journey they know they run the risk of criminal gangs who throw people off the top of the trains they're riding on if they don't pay up, etc.  The possibility of drowning after a long dangerous journey is just something else to add the list of potential ways to die on the way.

In fairness, there is fairly widespread gang influence in El Salvador (moderate by Central American standards), but it seems they weren't at risk from this. All very odd.  

According to his own mother, they were in no danger and just wanted a better life.

I totally understand why they would want to emigrate. I do not understand how you could be so stupid and selfish as to risk your own daughter's life like that.

This story makes me so angry. At angry at the parents. That poor, beautiful little girl is dead and it is her parents' fault. At the very least they should have just waited their turn in Mexico. 

I have a kid the same age. The idea of leaving him on a riverbank expecting him not to follow me is so fucking retarded, I'd deserve a drowning just to remove myself from the gene pool.

No sympathy for the adults here, none.

Agreed. The usual idiots are blaming Trump of course.

The mother is to blame too, but I do feel sorry for her of course. Hard to think of a more traumatic experience. 

I have a daughter not much older than that.

I think of what the circumstances would have to be for me to take such a risk.

I feel sorry for all of them.

People should not feel they have to take risks like that.

Cheese you should read up on what they go through just to get to Mexico.  Many of them end up riding on top of goods trains having tied themselves on so they don't fall off if they fall asleep.  The trains are run by gangs who think nothing of throwing people off them either.  Given what they've been through by the time they get to Mexico swimming across a river or hiking across a desert doesn't seem that dangerous and in their minds the better life in the US is worth the risk of traveling for weeks and potentially dying on the journey.

I am staggered that these two thought they needed to take any risks at all.

He made USD 350 a month so USD 4,200 a year. El Salvador GDP per capita is about USD 7,000 so he was poor, but not destitute by local standards. 

The family were in Mexico (where they would also have been safe) but couldn't be bothered to wait their turn and instead decided to risk their lives in the Rio Grande. 

I just nearly sprayed the screen with the water I was drinking at the idea that anyone is safe in Mexico.

There are 130m people in Mexico. Do you imagine that they are all in constant mortal danger? I know the food is pretty spicy, but come on. 

He's got a point.  The people waiting at the border to claim asylum are generally going to be amongst the most secure and best cared for in the country.

No excuses.

Pretty irresponsible to have been born El Salvadorean too.  

Yeah Sails, didn't you know that all the migrant get to hang out in Tulum drinking blue agave margaritas?!


Sails, it sounds as if they should be discouraged from making the journey then. 

Good point.

Maybe we could nuke el salvador, then they wouldn't come?

Like a reverse field of dreams?  If you nuke them, they won't come?

Because you did just say it was fine these people died "pour encourager les autres", right?

Because you did just say it was fine these people died "pour encourager les autres", right?

Where did I say that then?

Abby, please go away. You really are thick as shit. 

"sounds as if they should be discouraged from making the journey then. "

That is the policy being employed.

The inevitable consequence of that policy not being 100% effective is what you see in that photo.

Which serves to reinforce the policy, which you say is the right policy.

SO, ok, you don't want to nuke the whole of el salvador.  I accept that was harshly hyperbolic.  But you do want to line the border with posters saying "Don't.  Just don't, or this happens" printed on that picture.

I would start by making it very clear that anyone who enters the United States other than at a designated crossing point will be summarily deported and be banned from entering the country for life. 

If this means withdrawing from international agreements then so be it. There is no universal human right to live in the United States of America. 

The Aussies did something similar (though more easily enforced for obvious reasons) and deaths at sea decreased significantly. 

Given pictures of dead American school children don’t change anything I don’t see why these pictures will change anything.


Supes, to be fair, the picture of the Syrian toddler washed up on the beach didn't change things in Europe either ...

" ... There is no universal human right to live in the United States of America. ..."

Really? Isn't there? Justify that on moral or philosophical grounds.

Morally or philosophically justified or not it is a fact. 

Can you morally or philosophically justify the amount of money you spend on yourself that you could instead spend on charity? Unless you have gone full Singer / MacAskill then you probably can't. 

Cheese over 15,000 people were murdered in Mexico in the first half of 2018 so it's definitely not a particularly safe place and bear in mind the fact the cartels think nothing of running gun battles and the consequent risk of innocent bystanders taking a bullet.

I think that strengthening the US border is the wrong approach and the money would be better spent on trying to sort out most of Central America so that life isn't so awful that people are willing to risk death to live somewhere else.  The fact that this family may not have been involved in gang problems in their home country doesn't mean that they weren't worried they'd be caught up in it sooner or later.

Sails, by that logic, absolutely everyone in El Salvador and Mexico should be able to seek asylum in the USA. That is clearly absurd.

I agree that rich countries should do what they can to fix poorer countries, but they should also aggressively enforce immigration law and secure their borders. I would be happy for at least as much money to be spent on the former as on the latter. 

You cannot fix the problems of the third world by constantly importing people from the third world into rich countries. 

I find it odd that the same people who insist we shouldn't spend 0.x% GDP on international aid are the same people who hate asylum seekers.

Mr Toastie is at least being consistent.

Well, I happen to think it is in our interests to make the world a safer more stable place. 

People who want no asylum seekers and no foreign aide are not inconsistent I suppose. Wrong, but not inconsistent. 

North Korea has virtually no immigration and presumably provides little foreign aide...


Well given that it actually regularly relies on foreign aid to stop its own population starving to death I would be surprised if it were a major donor nation

I would be surprised if it were a major donor for the exact same reason. What do they have to donate?

I assume the rockets they occasionally lob into the Sea of Japan are not laden with North Korean delicacies for the starving population of Japan.

I’m most certainly not suggesting that everyone should get asylum but we we should look at why people are willing to risk death for life somewhere else.  Telling them they’ll be deported has no effect on people prepared die.