TERFs

This subject confuses me more than any other topical debate I think.

I think of myself as socially liberal, think that everyone should be free to be who they want to be, and have equality of opportunity.  I also think womens' rights have been hard won and there's still a long way to go.

But am I getting it right that you're a TERF and therefore a baddie if you think that someone who's been a man for 40 years and then simply says "now I'm a woman", without anything else, isn't ACTUALLY a woman?  I mean he can crack on and say he is, and he can apply for a GRC, but is someone a TERF for saying he's not ACTUALLY a woman, and (for example) if he commits a crime he shouldn't be sent to a women's prison?

Where stands ROF on this issue?  Who's a TERF?

All the rofettes are out and proud TERFs and therefore part of the broader Alt-right movement. 

Not really sure what a TERF is (I know what the acronym stands for) but it seems to be a way of compartmentalising and demonising women/people who say that a trans-woman is not actually a woman.

I am of the view that a trans-woman is not a woman.  Because they aren’t, basically.  Wot the OP said in paras 2 and 3.  

There was a programme on last night about trans-women in sport (which I didn’t see) but this is an area where it is clearly absurd for a trans-woman to compete in women’s sporting events.  

Wiki TERF definition:

TERF (/ˈtɛrf/, also written "terf") is an acronym for "trans-exclusionary radical feminist". Coined in 2008, the term is applied to a minority of feminists who espouse transphobic sentiments, including opposition to transgender rights and the inclusion of trans women in women's spaces, or rejection that trans women are women. While these feminists perceive the term to be a slur, mainstream feminists, other academics, and trans people have rejected this view.

Not sure where I stand on prisons but am very uncomfortable with trans women competing as women in sport.

So Kimmy do you think there should be a process to go through whereby a man CAN become a woman and have all rights which apply to women?

See I have worked with a barrister who has transitioned from male to female.  She went through A LOT, including surgeries, to do that.  And I fully respect she is a woman now.  But I think that's totally different to some criminal deciding overnight he's a woman so he can prey on vulnerable women prisoners.  

I'm just not sure what kind of procedure or qualification there should be - i.e. is the GRC process fit for purpose and - if not - what should it be?

I think most people when they think of a trans woman assume a post operative transsexual (I have worked with a couple over the years) who "passes" socially and would understandably think it cruel and vindictive to say such a person should for example be made to use the gents. 

But there is a small but very vocal group of activists driving the GRA agenda who literally refuse to accept that physical sex is distinguishable abd think that any beardy bloke who decides he is a woman is literally a woman, that if you claim to be able to see a difference between say me and Mr Beardy you are reducing women to stereotypes, and that women who aren't happy to be identified with reductive gender roles are actual men. 

It's like the emperors new clothes, except the emperor knows he's naked and is forcing everyone to say he's not or he will have them fired. 

I don't think a post operative transsexual is literally a woman, you cannot change physical sex. It's impossible. 

Agree Linda.  Worryingly my anecdotal view from reading social media is that their view is the prevalent view, and the view of he younger generation.

I think that a lot of organisations swallowing the TRA agenda think they are supporting measures to accommodate trabssexual when what is actually being pushed is the lady brain agenda. 

Quite frankly, I have seen two of the younger generation in double denim in the last fortnight, so I think we can safely discount their views.

And what Linda said.

Oh dear it didn't take long before the hate speech showed it's ugly face

If other ( someone said younger)  people believe that a post op trans woman is same as me woman, fine, their ignorance.

they are wrong.

wotevs.

I was turned out of the women's changing rooms recently, even after informing the pool attendant that I self identified as a woman  

Considering some form of legal action against the council .probably via crowdfunding 

I don't understand why young women are so vicious and unthinking about it

I suppose it probably comes from the fact that they have mostly had very safe and pampered lives (relatively speaking)

I mean, the Greens changed the wording of a motion so it didn't refer to FEMALE genital mutilation in its condemnation

THOSE GIRLS ARE LITERALLY BEING MUTILATED BECAUSE THEY ARE FEMALE ARG

as if any are sitting around going "sure I miss the ability to urinate safely and feel sexual pleasure but how DARE they not validate the possibility that I could be a man"

where I come from, gender is a category used to restrict and stifle, not a fun day out. If you are born a man you are a man (and a woman a woman) but there are no emotional or behavioural imperatives to those categories so can everyone stop being Steampunk 1940s America?

It's not even that minkie they think that if your husband came home tonight and told he was a woman, then he is and if you stayed with him having PIV sex you would be a lesbian. Because lady penis 

minkie

young people believe anyone who says they are a woman is a woman (and a man a man)

no operation or physical changes whatsoever

they completely deny the impact that they have on society as actors within it

is there a less sexy phrase than PIV sex? is there? it makes me want to become a gray asexual (WHICH IS A THING YOU NAZIS)

no emotional or behavioural imperatives to those categories 

r u ok m7?

You don't think there may be some behavioural differences despite sexual dimorphism, totally different physique, chemical inputs, social role?

hotnow u need to take a long hard look at urself in the mirror

tho make sure it’s a smash resistant one

there are observable trends ofc but these are not IMPERATIVES. They are not fundamental necessities to falling within one category or another.

a female serial killer is still a woman

a man who hates football and likes knitting and gossip is still a man

the transgender activist movement in 2019 says that you can "feel" like a man or a woman based on glib examples such as these and that these feelings manifest reality

 

Fuck them... ...growing old as a woman is a shed load harder than growing old as a man. Watch out for the next wave of boomerang gender changes when that penny drops...

Men can have traits that are deemed feminine and vice versa ofc 

but gender is a prison and the answer to a man who wants to wear a dress because he likes them, is for him to wear a dress and everyone else to mind their own business. He's still a man and that's ok 

it seems they also don't have a very realistic idea of what it is to be a woman

they are not women they are perpetually young and beautiful women and you must see them as such

actually maybe they are onto something

Fluffy I anticipate a lot of law suits In 10 years or so 

ps do you think ageing as a woman is harder? apart from the prolapse thing I don't. Old ladies are generally much better at having their activities and friendship groups and community roles than old men.

and while some old men still keep shagging etc until the end I don't think most do

not what? beautiful? that's the whole point, they are not actually women and they are certainly not beautiful women (they might look like normal women but normal women are not the goal)

but they think that this is society's fault

I don't know what they think all the ordinary women feel about this.

they are agressive in asserting that they are genuinely women, that they have a right to sex as those women, etc etc

some women are ugly, some are virgins, some are old, like. Mate, tough shit life sucks.

Clergs, growing older as a woman will be harder for those gender skippers who are attracted to the beauty of the female form... [I’m probably going to hell for that one]

...I agreed that socially older women are stronger, but I’m not sure that social bond will develop as naturally in a trans-gendered man.

I agree

but that is a transphobic thing to say because they are literally women

also, occasionally, a transgender person will say "hey I feel uncomfrtoable with everyone debating about me I just want to be" and I feel really shit for that person because yes just be no one else has a right to control you

but then the activists say "but you must believe they are women and have always been women"

I just don't and I don't reeeally believe all the SNP and Labuor Young Team who claim otherwise believe it either

I asked a colleague yesterday how boarding schools are dealing with this as certainly as teenagers we would have used any excuse we could to get into the girls parts of the school and see them getting changed.  Apparently most schools have adopted the approach of treating pupils by their birth gender although as a result some children who consider themselves transgender have moved from mixed schools to single sex schools for the gender they identify and still not sure how that works.

its not just boarding schools. It's changing rooms and girls sports too 

When Shania Twain famously said, "Man! I feel like a woman" in her 1997 opus, Man! I Feel Like A Woman, what do you think she meant?

I do find the idea of "knowing" that one "is" the other gender - in some real and pure sense that doesn't have to do with the body you inhabit - quite difficult to understand. How can anyone ever know what it is like to be another gender? And if you don't know that, how can you tell that that's what you are?

you know the biggest mindfuck of all?

non-binary

how is this different from a person who is neurotic about their genitals?

unless you subscribe to 40s ideas about what men and women are

I know Hoolz but it came up in conversation and I was intrigued given the way that my school had dealt with having 4 real women and 600 odd boys when I was there.

I think the answer for changing rooms is to end up with lots of cubicles like public pools so everyone has a private changing space.  Would also save you dealing with the gym strutters who like to strut back and forth from the shower showing off their toned bodies.

blimey.

if a man really wants to know what its like being a woman they should try loading their system with oestrogen. Never mind the plumbing.

it is literally like, you decide you are a woman now

you tell everyone you are a woman

you get furious when people don't refer to you as she

YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR NAME TO A WOMANLY NAME IT IS ENOUGH TO SAY "HOW DARE YOU, EDGAR COULD BE A WOMAN'S NAME AND INDEED IT IS FOR I AM ONE"

the actual madness

Hey Clergs some would say that that level of irrationality is pretty much real woman, slam dunk!

That we have got to the stage that it's even an issue is, I suppose, a good thing. It means that, in the first world at least, we have the fundamentals squared away.

That people are prepared to spend time, effort and money on such things is something I daresay I will never really understand but what do I know?

 

Transwomen are not women, transmen are not men. They are a specific third category. If that's what they want, fine. But don't tell me you feel like a female when you haven't had to deal with all the shit that goes with that from birth. You have no idea.

One would have thought as society drops gender stereotypes and lets people be who they want to be regardless of their sex (I appreciate we are not there yet but are moving in the right direction) the need to be trans gender would lessen and yet it seems to be growing.

I have no particular beef either way with this, it is not a subject I feel strongly about, but I do find it surprising that more and more people seem to feel the need now that you can pretty much do and be anything as either sex anway (except compete in sporting events and go to prisons meant for the opposite sex oh and the WI).

streets like a jungle 

so call the police...

So much toxic femininity in this thread I feel like I'm in an episode of Chernobyl 

So do you think trans women should be allowed to compete in the Olympics as women then, hotnow?

Lady Penelope27 Jun 19 08:53

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Not sure where I stand on prisons but am very uncomfortable with trans women competing as women in sport.

 

Take a look at Karen White.  That should help you on prisons.

What are your thoughts then, hotnow? I am not transphobic, I just don't agree with them categorising themselves in a certain way. I think it's a difficult area and for a transperson to assume otherwise is a bit naïve, tbh.

it's probably reflective of the digital native generation - believing that you can completely control how society sees you and interacts with you with no empathy for the fact that it exists independently of you

Anna I have learned that as a man I have no voice (nor should I) in intersectional matters so I'm curious to learn, as an ally, what more enlightened feminists think, including such as those present who align with the Alt- right.

The athletics thing is an awful dilemma, but ultimately my own view is that keeping women's sport fair is more important than accomodating the tiny number of trans athletes who want to compete on a blatantly non-level playing field.  The picture of that trans volleyball player is ridick. 

I really don't think it's an alt-right thing being slightly uncomfortable about the fact you might be sharing a changing a room with a gawping hairy person with eight swinging inches and bollocks who told reception he's a lady.

Anna I have learned that as a man I have no voice (nor should I) in intersectional matters so I'm curious to learn, as an ally, what more enlightened feminists think, including such as those present who align with the Alt- right.

And yet you feel qualified to dismiss the raising of such concerns by women as "toxic femininity" without explaining how you have come to that conclusion.

Right-oh.

Dude you're not good enough at the faux woke nonsense to fool anyone. 

What about the women whose sporting prospects are harmed by trans women who are biologically male being allowed to compete against them in sporting events? Or the women in female only prisons who are raped by trans prisoners with penises? 

Anna - its toxic because it harms women

Actually, I feel harmed because my rights as a woman are placed lower than a man's who wants to be a woman.

Linda one much misunderstood aspect of feminism is that it strives for equality for all women and not just some women.  I will put you down as an 'ally'.

The athletics thing really isn't an "awful dilemma".  You compete according to your biological sex, not your genderfeelz.  It's not difficult at all.

If you have a Y choromosome, off you pop to the men's competition.  All X?  Then compete against women.

Sure sure hotnow. You put me on your little list as whatever you like 

Yes Hot that's equality for all women and not for some bloke who decides he's a woman on a Wednesday when he goes to the gym so he can perv in the showers.

Saillaw it's up to you what you do in the showers I do not stand in judgment - unlike the alt-right TERFS around these parts

Anna re your 12:05 when you are used to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Yes, a potential effect of equality will be that mediocre women are pushed out of elite competition. This is the price of equality.

 I do not stand in judgment

Actually, you are being quite judgey about us womenfolk having an opinion. You're sort of mansplaining why we should think differently....

Yes, a potential effect of equality will be that mediocre women are pushed out of elite competition.

No, it will mean that the best women are pushed out of elite competition because they have to compete against someone who is biologically a man.