Surely the best thing is just to get this deal agreed?
Hotblack Desiato 17 Oct 19 12:07
Reply |

After more than 3 years of acrimony, hysteria, and accusations, constitutional crisis and the depressing groundhog day of debating the same minutiae of borders, tariffs, and backstops, surely the best thing for the overwhelming majority of people is to just get the deal agreed?

If you voted Leave, then this deal gives you at least some of what you want and potentially everything that you want, if you were never in favour of a no-deal Brexit.

If you voted Remain, then this deal maintains some of the benefits of EU membership (e.g. free trade), that you might have been concerned with losing.

More importantly, and this is the essence of compromise, surely it is something that even if we are not all happy with, we can all live with? And just think, for a moment, about how nice it might be as a nation to stop tearing ourselves apart over this issue?

Only a tiny minority of people on either side of the Leave/Remain debate must actively enjoy the vitriol and argument. The rest of us might get drawn into it, from time to time, because we genuinely believe in our political opinions, but it is just so fvcking draining for everything to be so controversial all of the time.

Any extension any referendum just prolongs the uncertainty. Literally no-one in business wants any more uncertainty - it is that, more than anything else that makes it impossible to plan and invest.

So isn't it time for all of us to swallow a bit of pride and support getting a deal done, so that 50% of the population can stop hating the other 50%?

 

I will never support leaving the EU. there is no benefit to doing so and I feel no inclination to play nice with the idiots who voted for it. 

this boils down to "we've been at this for ages, so don't bother considering the deal or what it means, just give in and accept it".

 

Sorry Hotblack did you mean to post this on 19 March?

No, this deal is not what was promised and is palpably worse in almost every respect than staying in the EU.   The way to draw a line under this is to present the deal to the public and say is this what you want or would you prefer to remain - decision binding not advisory and implemented immediately and automatically.    

That is how we draw a line under this.

"If you voted Remain, then this deal maintains some of the benefits of EU membership (e.g. free trade), that you might have been concerned with losing."

I need more e.g. s

No.

lindaradlett17 Oct 19 12:08

Reply|

Report

| DM Reply |

Report

 

I will never support leaving the EU. there is no benefit to doing so and I feel no inclination to play nice with the idiots who voted for it. 

An example of exactly the sort of sentiment that we might be able to move beyond if a deal was done.

 

 

IF IT’S PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON’S DEAL THEN I’M SURE IT’S FINE JUST FINE ABSOLUTELY FINE NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT LET’S JUST VOTE FOR IT EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE!!

Yes.

I suppose I might at this stage accept anything just to avoid the possibility of remaining, but even so, this seems to present a reasonable compromise.

How does it give remainers free trade? By being able to strike trade deals. This was more a leaver ask wasn't it? Remainers would prefer to stay in the single market.

I think most members of the ERG will see sense. There will still be some hardcore Brexiteers who oppose it, but sod 'em. This has gone on long enough.

this boils down to "we've been at this for ages, so don't bother considering the deal or what it means, just give in and accept it".

Yes it does. Because that is how the real world is. Nothing is perfect. The uncertainty benefits nobody. We have to compromise with other people all the time. Compromise is always unsatisfying.

 

How does it give remainers free trade?

 

Sorry I should have said with the EU. One of the benefits of being in the EU was no tariff trade with the EU. This deal gives us that.

also, yeah, the Irish and Northern Irish should really just fuck off, yeah?In the spirit of compromise and all that

"that is how the real world works".   It sounds like you're the sort to pester a woman over and over again, hoping she'll have sex with you.  But it never quite happens, does it?

I don't have to compromise. I'm not in control of this negotiation process. I voted to remain, and I'm never going to pretend to be happy with anything else. I see no reason why I should 

"Sorry I should have said with the EU. One of the benefits of being in the EU was no tariff trade with the EU. This deal gives us that."

Does it?

EVERYTHING IS FINE JUST FINE I’M HAPPY WHY WOULDN’T I BE HAPPY WHEN I’M GETTING EXACTLY WHAT I ALWAYS WANTED EVERYTHING IS ABSOLUTELY FINE MAYBE I JUST NEED SOME FRESH AIR

I don't have to compromise. I'm not in control of this negotiation process. I voted to remain, and I'm never going to pretend to be happy with anything else. I see no reason why I should.

Because we all have to get along? Surely that is a good reason to compromise? I know that we often think of ourselves at atomised individuals, but we are not. We are creatures of, and depend upon society.

"Sorry I should have said with the EU. One of the benefits of being in the EU was no tariff trade with the EU. This deal gives us that."

Does it?

 

Yes.

You are obviously oversimplifying, but even at your level the best I can put it is that this agreement takes away a lot of rights and privileges I currently enjoy (including the ability to do half of my actual fcuking job) with the promises that I might get some (but probably not all) of those rights and privileges back, maybe, eventually, when an FTA is agreed.

You think I should "make do" with that?

YOU KNOW THEY’LL THANK US IN THE END FOR WHAT WE DID FOR THEM THEY’LL THANK US ONCE THEY UNDERSTAND HOW MUCH BETTER IT IS THEY’LL THANK US

EVERYTHING IS FINE

Hotblack seems to be spouting quotes from the Yoda app I have just downloaded for my fitbit

Fought I did, consumed by fear, I was, though see it, I did not!

Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose!

IF EVERYONE AGREES TO BE HAPPY THEN EVERYONE WILL BE HAPPY THAT’S HOW HAPPINESS WORKS

I’M HAPPY WHY WOULDN’T I BE HAPPY!

Agree with the OP - If the British public were able to vote tomorrow on the deal it would pass probably 60/40 maybe even 70/30. Most people who are not hysterical want this done so we can move on.

Another referendum will mean 9-12 months delay.

so you're in favour of a referendum then, LA?  To show those elites what the BRAVE BRITISH PEOPLE REALLY WANT?

hotblack seems to think this is a deal which deals with the future relationship

he’s obviously either totally ignorant or a liar

even farridge is right: this is just a withdrawal agreement, it doesn’t do anything like what hotblack seems to think it does

What Del said, this is nothing compared as to what it to come, 

 

How long is the tranistion period going to last?

Pretty astonishing that supposedly intelligent people are basically saying it doesn't matter what's in the deal, we just need to accept it. 

Is this what taking back control looks like?

And if so, why the fuck have we wasted the last year repeatedly rejecting Theresa May's deal, only to say we must now accept Boris Johnson's deal regardless of what it says? 

Most people who are not hysterical want this done so we can move on.

THAT’S RIGHT NO NEED TO DELAY LET’S GET IT DONE NO NEED TO BE HYSTERICAL AND LOOK AT IT NO NEED TO BE HYSTERICAL EVERYTHING IS FINE I’M HAPPPY WHY WOULDN’T I BE HAPPY WHEN EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE

"why the fuck have we wasted the last year repeatedly rejecting Theresa May's deal"

Because that would have potentially left us languishing in the EU forever. His deal gets us (GB) out completely, and even NI leaves the customs union (although stays in the single market).

If we really are going to leave the EU then this isn’t the worst way to do it, but I am never going to positively want any mode of departure over an alternative option that carries the possibility of staying.

Brexit has no benefits. It is a stupid political brain fart born of an unholy alliance between craven and calculating but also short-sighted and incompetent politicians, and idiotic, self-ignorant and spiteful voters. It is nothing but downside. 

WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR AND THIS IS IT, THIS IS WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR

I’M FINE EVERYTHING IS FINE ACTUALLY I’M HAPPY TODAY IS A GOOD DAY EVERYTHING IS FINE

And we don’t all have to get along. I don’t want healing. I don’t want reconciliation. I fucking hate Brexit and the people who voted, and there are loads of people like me, and we’re mostly the younger half of the population. And one day not too far away, it’s going to be revenge time, and a pro-European government with a thumping majority is going to scoff at all the dead and gaga Brexiteers in their nursing homes and sign us up to the EEA, which is like the penal colony of the EU, and put a constitutional triple lock on ever leaving again. Fuck it, even talking about leaving again will be a criminal offence.

Because that would have potentially left us languishing in the EU forever.

No it wouldn't. It would have taken us out of the EU. Ask the next generation of young people with no right to free movement and no vote in the European Parliament elections whether they think we are still in the EU and they would tell you that we are not.

Are you genuinely this stupid? 

Brexiters are either:

  1. extremely  stupid and ignore the detail; or
  2. really clever and engage with the detail in a way that enables them to concoct a logic where this all makes sense and is what they actually voted for in 2016, despite not being able to set it out in any way, shape or form until the EU told them just this morning. 

this boils down to "we've been at this for ages, so don't bother considering the deal or what it means, just give in and accept it".

Yes it does. Because that is how the real world is. Nothing is perfect. The uncertainty benefits nobody. We have to compromise with other people all the time. Compromise is always unsatisfying.

A far better compromise is to revoke A50. Uncertainty won't end on the day the UK leaves the EU. 

Leavers have been pandered to for the last 3+ years and a way of leaving that doesn't fvk the UK is not possible.  There you go - we stay in.   

It is damaging and stupid to leave the EU and I will never accept that it is otherwise - facts are facts. I will also never respect the view that brexit is good for the UK, because it just isn't.   

this all makes sense and is what they actually voted for in 2016, despite not being able to set it out in any way, shape or form until the EU told them just this morning

HOW MANY TIMES DO YOU REMOANERS NEED TO BE TOLD THAT WE KNEW WHAT WE WERE VOTING FOR IN THE REFERENDUM?!?

IT WAS FOR THIS! WE WERE ALL VOTING FOR THIS!

AND EVERYTHING IS JUST FINE!

HD’s point is that a deal is arguably better than the paralysis we currently face.  It’s in the nature of compromise that you accept less that you wanted, also accepting that there are forces pulling in the completely opposite direction to you that may win out, whether or not you agree with them, causing even greater damage and that even if you win (say by permanently revoking Art 50, which seems very unlikely) that in itself can cause substantial damage.  It’s just making the best of a bad situation rather than keep banging your drum with no clear resolution in sight.

The point of this thread seems to be that even ardent Brexiteers now accept its a shit idea, and they would like everyone to be nice about it so they feel less bad 

 

tough 

I don’t care if a deal is “better” than the paralysis we face. Unless we’re going to revoke Art.50 then I want the paralysis to endure forever to punish the stupid fucking twats who voted for Brexit.

HD’s point is that a deal is arguably better than the paralysis we currently face.  It’s in the nature of compromise that you accept less that you wanted, also accepting that there are forces pulling in the completely opposite direction to you that may win out, whether or not you agree with them, causing even greater damage and that even if you win (say by permanently revoking Art 50, which seems very unlikely) that in itself can cause substantial damage.  It’s just making the best of a bad situation rather than keep banging your drum with no clear resolution in sight.

The problem with that approach is that no one likes this deal. 

The point of doing a compromise is that both sides get some, but not all, of what they want.

Does this deal achieve that?

No.

Remainers don't get what they want because we are still leaving the EU, we are still losing our right to free movement and our right to vote in European Parliament elections, we are still leaving the single market and customs union. Essentially all the advantages of being in the EU are gone.

Leavers don't get what they want because first of all what they actually voted for when they cast their vote was a unicorn deal that was never going to be on offer, and so since it has become apparent that that deal was not going to be on offer, they have been manipulated into believing that what they actually voted for was no deal and that anything less is not a proper Brexit.

If your "compromise" means that both sides feel they have got nothing they wanted and hate each other more than ever, what is the fucking point? You might as well just do what one side wants and make half of the people happy.

"A far better compromise is to revoke A50."

 

That's not a compromise though, is it? Just one side getting 100% of what they want.

Better than both sides getting about 0.5% of what they want.

"our right to vote in European Parliament elections"

 

Is this much of a loss to remainers? The European Parliament has no power, and turnout for European elections is very low, with a lot of the votes going to first UKIP, and the Brexit party. On  the other hand, once you leave the EU, the Parliament which you elect decides 100% of the legislation in your country. So surely the "having a vote" point is in favour of leaving? Unless you like voting as an act of theatre.

THE ONLY COMPROMISE ON THE SUNLIT UPLANDS WE VOTED FOR THAT I COULD COUNTENANCE WOULD BE A COMPROMISE WHERE I HAVE THE CAKE AND EAT ALL BUT ONE SLICE OF THE CAKE WHICH I GENEROUSLY LEAVE FOR THE REMOANERS (WHO FRANKLY DON’T DESERVE SO MUCH AS A CRUMB BUT I AM THE BETTER MAN)

The European Parliament does not have no power.

You don’t get it m77. We want Leavers to get fucked.

Better than both sides getting about 0.5% of what they want.

 

But the Brexit deal doesn't give everyone who voted Brexit 0.5% of what they want. It gives most Brexit voters most of what they want:

- An end to free movement of people

- An end to the common agricultural and fisheries policy

- An end to future binding legislation flowing from the EU Council, which is not elected.

 

And surely the most ardent Remainer would have to admit that free trade is more than 0.5% of what is good about the EU.

 

Is this much of a loss to remainers? The European Parliament has no power, and turnout for European elections is very low, with a lot of the votes going to first UKIP, and the Brexit party. On  the other hand, once you leave the EU, the Parliament which you elect decides 100% of the legislation in your country. So surely the "having a vote" point is in favour of leaving? Unless you like voting as an act of theatre.

Actually it is a pretty big deal for me.

As someone who has only ever been registered to vote in a Tory safe seat, my vote in general elections is meaningless and I will always be "represented" in parliament by someone whose views are diametrically opposed to my own.

In European Parliament elections my vote had some impact, and each time I voted my region elected at least one MEP from the party I had voted for, so I felt I actually had some representation.

For me, leaving the EU means that I have no meaningful democratic representation at all and might as well not bother voting (at least until I become a citizen of another country and gain the right to vote in their elections).

But the Brexit deal doesn't give everyone who voted Brexit 0.5% of what they want. It gives most Brexit voters most of what they want:

- An end to free movement of people

- An end to the common agricultural and fisheries policy

- An end to future binding legislation flowing from the EU Council, which is not elected.

If you had said this three years ago you might have had a point, but since most leavers now believe they want no deal, they still view this as a total betrayal and so it is pointless even trying to please them.

And surely the most ardent Remainer would have to admit that free trade is more than 0.5% of what is good about the EU.

You think this "deal" gives us free trade? Cute.

I don’t care if a deal is “better” than the paralysis we face. Unless we’re going to revoke Art.50 then I want the paralysis to endure forever to punish the stupid fucking twats who voted for Brexit.

 

Well that is certainly one way to approach life's problems. To wish collective punishment on 100% of the people forever, to punish 52% of the people for disagreeing with you on immigration, agriculture, and fishing policies.

You think this "deal" gives us free trade? Cute.

This deal gives us tariff free trade with the EU. So yes.

"As someone who has only ever been registered to vote in a Tory safe seat"

Have you considered moving?

 

To wish collective punishment on 100% of the people forever, to punish 52% of the people for disagreeing with you on immigration, agriculture, and fishing policies.

Except that for those of us who wish to remain, further paralysis is better than leaving with this shitty deal.

And let's not kid ourselves that Brexit happened because 52% of voters had a cogent opinion on immigration, agriculture and fishing policies. The question may as well have been "are you happy, yes or no?"

Clear from the thread that many haven't actually bothered to read the political declaration... 

The usual culprits obviously - spouting "FACTS" aka ill informed opinion...

Have you considered moving?

Yeah, I moved right out of the country and will stay away until the UK elects some fucking grown ups for a change.

I do slightly regret not moving to a marginal constituency for the three months I was serving out my notice period though.

Brexit has no benefits.

 

It has some benefits, surely? Although there is a divorce bill, the net contributions to the EU are a billion a month, so at some point in time it will save tax money. It also allows the UK control over its fisheries and agricultural policies. It means that future legislation will only emanate from Parliament, over which we have (some) control, and not also from the EU Council, over which you and I have exactly no control whatsoever.

And whether free of movement of people is a benefit or a hindrance depends on your viewpoint. For a lot of people, it isn't a benefit, because it means more competition for jobs and thus lower wages.

"Yeah, I moved right out of the country and will stay away until the UK elects some fucking grown ups for a change."

So you don't actually live in the UK?

Goodness, you're quick on the uptake, aren't you?

If Leave can demonstrate how this confers any benefit then perhaps people who voted Remain might get on board with it. But it doesn't so they won't. The "it's all taken ages so let's just get on with it" approach is the last refuge of the desperate.

Although there is a divorce bill, the net contributions to the EU are a billion a month, so at some point in time it will save tax money.

YES! ITS GOING TO BE A REAL MONEY SAVER!!

I’M GLAD SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THE ISSUES!!

“Well that is certainly one way to approach life's problems. To wish collective punishment on 100% of the people forever, to punish 52% of the people for disagreeing with you on immigration, agriculture, and fishing policies.”

This is my exact position. CHUCKLEMAXGAME @ “it’s just a matter of trade policy”. Yeah sure I mean it’s not like the Leave lobby made it into a massive question of existential national identity-politics DEY TUK URRR MAGNA CARTAZ uberimportance, is it? And tbf the Remain campaign accepted the premise, stupidly.

"A far better compromise is to revoke A50."

That's not a compromise though, is it? Just one side getting 100% of what they want.

We aren't talking about whether to change the wallpaper in the drawing room to yellow or purple ffs.  A change from z to x or y.  We are talking about a massive economic, cultural and political upheaval that no-one knew the details of (or even the gist of) when it was "voted for" by a slim majority of less than the full electorate and has proved impossible to achieve sensibly.  The obvious thing to do for the benefit of the country is to keep the status quo. 

Revocation is clearly the best choice from a rational perspective, but there is no way you can describe it as a “compromise” u massive japer 

I hope the deal is approved by parliament. The alternative is further delay and a general election which, given Corbyn is unelectable the Tories would almost certainly win and then either adopt this deal or go for no deal.

A second in/out referendum just doesn't look remotely likely from here.

Lady Penelope17 Oct 19 14:32

Reply | Report Reply | Report

Goodness, you're quick on the uptake, aren't you?

 

I suppose I just couldn't believe that anyone in their right mind would go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about Brexit and how stupid 52% of the population of Britain were, unless they actually lived here. Because if you lived in another country, you might want, to, you know, pay more attention to that country, what with it being where you actually lived.

a second in/out referendum looks highly likely from here m88

the latest developments make it much likelier

I suppose I just couldn't believe that anyone in their right mind would go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about Brexit and how stupid 52% of the population of Britain were, unless they actually lived here. Because if you lived in another country, you might want, to, you know, pay more attention to that country, what with it being where you actually lived.

1. So you really are that slow on the uptake.

2. After the referendum when I was complaining about how stupid 52% of those who voted in the referendum (not "52% of the population") are, a lot of the rightard nutbags on here said "If you don't like it, move to the EU before it's too late, but you won't of course, because you people never put your money where your mouth is". I guess I did.

3. Being part of the more intelligent 48% of those who voted in the referendum (and at least in the top half of the population as well), I am capable of paying attention to more than one thing at a time. I know, I know, that must be hard for someone as intellectually limited as you evidently are to imagine. But it's true.

I am curious why somebody would say a referendum doesn’t look remotely likely - it is by no means certain but I don’t think it has ever looked more likely

Lady Penelope17 Oct 19 14:27

Reply|

Report

| DM Reply |

Report

 

To wish collective punishment on 100% of the people forever, to punish 52% of the people for disagreeing with you on immigration, agriculture, and fishing policies.

Except that for those of us who wish to remain, further paralysis is better than leaving with this shitty deal.

And let's not kid ourselves that Brexit happened because 52% of voters had a cogent opinion on immigration, agriculture and fishing policies. The question may as well have been "are you happy, yes or no?"

So you think that 52% of the population voted Leave because they were unhappy (presumably with the status quo) and what you want to do is to wish collective punishment on them (despite their being unhappy) and on everyone else?

 

I am beginning to think that you are not a very nice person.

 

I am beginning to think that you are not a very nice person.

Whether I am nice or not is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. What matters is that I am right.

And no, I don't wish collective punishment on people. That's why I support remaining. Duh.