Scottish Independence

Surely a first stage to this in the light of the General Election is to have a U.K. wide referendum asking a question something like:

"Should a second vote on Scottish Independence (the first in 2014) be asked of voters in Scotland by referendum?" 

Obv if this was to be a Yes then it would be much much harder for a U.K. government to 'win' a second Scottish Independence referendum, but not necessarily...

I think we should send Jeremy Corbyn to Brusells to negotiate a new deal for Scotland in the EU and add that onto the Leave part of the referndum questions

Why does it matter?  If they want to go, let them go, they won’t be able to get into Europe because Spain will veto it and they take more from E&W than they put in sooo... if they want to commit economic seppuku then go for it.

THE IDEA THAT A NATION WOULD VOTE TO LEAVE A SUCCESSFUL UNION AND MAKE THEMSELVES WORSE OF IN SO DOING REALLY IS LAUGHABLE

Well that's kind of the point Teclis, that's why I'm sugggesting get on and start the referendum process. If 2014 hadn't happened I'd be for going straight to Scotland but as it did and resulted in a no, I recommend first asking the UK as a whole...

Why should the opinions of members of another country have any bearing on the concept of self determination as outlined under the UN charter?

Part of the reason I voted leave was so Scottish independence would be accelerated.  I don't say good riddance, but if a massive slice of them don't want to be in the union then we should let them go.  In fact I think rUK should have a vote on whether we want them to fuck off.

Yes Alan Partridge and you kind of get that with my proposal. Ok not quite and not really but it will no doubt be seen as rather cheeky for any first step at the UK level, so considering your comments, remains my proposal 

Teclis we're all one country until the UK is broken up, which the majority of people in the U.K. don't want of course 

Why not just go straight to an rUK ref asking "Should the moany Scottish fuck off?"

Actually I think you need to work angry Jimmy cranky look a like into there but I defer to your drafting skillz 

no

that is not the first step that is needed nor the one that will happen

what will happen is that sturgeon will call a second indyref unilaterally, independence will win it and then she will utterly buttpwn Johnson multitimes with the biggest imaginable political strap-on, and scotland will leave the UK.

Hooe this clarification assists! 

We are most certainly not all one country.  If we were then the English parliament wouldn’t have neglected proper investment into Wales and Scotland for hundreds of years whilst simultaneously stripping natural resources.

We don't have an English parliament.

Hopey helpy.

(Maybe we should.  In Burnley)

Part of the reason I voted leave was so Scottish independence would be accelerated.

SPEAKING AS A PATRIOTIC BRIT, I TOO WOULD BE ONLY TOO HAPPY TO SEE THE BREAK-UP OF THE UNION IF IT MEANS WE GET BREXIT DONE (WHICH WOULD OBVIOUSLY NEED TO BE RE-NAMED ENGLEXIT AT THAT POINT AS GREAT BRITAIN WILL NO LONGER BE APPLICABLE)

Yeah you do.  Westminster is just English, used as a “UK” parliament is pure pretence.

So the West Lothian Question is just a fallacy Teclis...

The whole thing is a sham used by the English to protect their self interest.

Oooo I think all Thursday's losers are getting massively triggered now lol

You mean paying for inferior coal which mucked up our steel and car industries?

Those 'resources ' ?

Tecco loves wales so much he doesn't live there and has spent most of his life in England.  That makes him basically Owain Glyndower.

*apart from those clandestine overseas ops, like

To paraphrase Ian Rush, Scotland is like a different country.

Let them have their vote, I say.

i would counsel the good Scottish people to learn the lessons of other referenda though and challenge what they are told rigorously.

As per the Andrew Neil / Nicola Stirgeon interview the economic predictions made by the Scottish Government in the independence white paper turned out to be BADLY wrong and would have condemned an iScotland and it’s people to a brutal period of economic constraint

tecco - spain has said that it won't veto the application

I did chuckle when Sturgeon was asked if following any independence winning the referendum she would offer a people's vote once the term of the exit were finalised - she squirmed and refused to acknowledge why that would be an option obviously...

Spain won't veto provided the referendum is authorised by UK parliament...

Is the independence campaign in Scotland as Europhile as it seems down here? Because regardless of the merits you're banking on enough independence-minded Remainers going for it. Seems a tall order.

Spain's issue is with a part of a Member State seceding unilaterally and assuming continued EU membership i.e. a direct Catalonia parallel.

Spain does not care about part of a non-Member State seceding in accordance with the constitution of that non-Member State and then joining the EU.  That is fine.

Spain has not said anything about part of a non-Member State seceding unilaterally from that non-Members State and then applying for EU membership.

 

Why are Scots more keen on the EU than the English are? 

A non member bit of a non member state will need to meet the various capital controls and economic tests which Scotland blatantly won’t be able to manage without some extraordinary level of fudging.

I think the Scottish see themselves as aligned with the progressive image of the EU.  Left-of-centre, socially liberal etc...  

Suspect they would be less keen overally if their economy started tanking and the EU rejected their democratically elected leaders or democratically approved budgets like Greece and Italy...

I agree that’s the notion put about by Scottish nationalists, Alan, it’s just that I’ve always assumed it’s bollocks and the Scots are no more liberal or tolerant than the rest of us. Is that self-image really what’s driving Scots to vote remain? I figured it must be more self-interested than that.

Why are Scots more keen on the EU than the English are?

 

Because the Scots are a much better people

THE JOCKS KNOW FULL WELL THAT THE ENGLISH ARE THEIR BETTERS AND THE NATURAL RULERS OF THIS SCEPTERED ISLE!

The Shetlanders and Orcadians would want to have their own vote to rejoin the U.K. if the Jocks foolishly decided to stand on their own unsteady feet...

I assumed it was because the Scottish are generally urban. North of Glasgow and Edinburgh there aren't many people at all.

So Scotland voted in the same way as English cities and tended to favour Remain.

Quick bit of googling tends to confirm, albeit Scottish cities were even more strongly remain than English. I didn’t realise Edinburgh voted 74.4% to stay

Also if no more Westminster they have to take Ian Blackford back. That's got to be worth a few points in support of the Union.

And even outside the cities there was a strong remain showing in Scotland. No Scottish council area voted for Brexit.

We don't think of Europe as being "the other".   I also don't pick up on much if any hostility as regards Immigrants from EU member states - irritation as regards those who immediately take to begging but "meh whatever" as regards everyone else.

We don't think of Europe as being "the other". 

OH LOOK!

A SCOTCH! A SCOTCHYMAN!!

DO AS YOU'RE TOLD JOCKY MCJOCKFACE!!!

THIS IS ENGLAND AND WE WANT TO GET BREXIT DONE!

That’s fair, mdt - I wonder if that lack of hostility has anything to do with the comparatively lower rates of immigration to Scotland? I really find the idea that Scots are simply gentler, kinder people quite tough to swallow. Maybe I’m wrong though

@Teclis 12:35

As regards a Spanish veto on an independent Scotland joining the EU, and whatever the other economic obstacles, there have been a number of occasions over the last three years or more where different Spanish foreign ministers have explicitly said that Spain would not veto a Scottish application.

While these are merely comments or assurances, they should probably be greater credence that anything Johnson promises.

The reports are easily found, including IIRC in April 2016,  November 2018, June 2019 among others.

These were different Socialist ministers. I think any PP government is likely to follow suite. I suspect their priority in this case is not to worry about a precedent for Catalonia. They know that France, Italy, Germany and perhaps Romania will join Spain in vetoing an application by Catalonia.

Spain's consideration re Scotland is to fvck with England. 

 

I'm not sure New Chimp.  Glasgow has got lots more immigration than say, the North East of England.  Lots of bits of Scotland are pretty white.  

Just for a bit of contrast, in France it is a criminal offence to propose or campaign for the secession of any part of France.  
 

I think a similar law in the UK would settle a lot of questions.  After all, most of the people who really want devolution or independence are self-important local elite types who know that they as a group would be paid much more, be much more important and get to have posts as ministers and ambassadorships in exciting large cities abroad if their part of the UK were an independent country.  
 

Whether it is a good idea or not doesn’t really figure in their thinking.  

why would anyone (English) care if they did leave the UK and join the EU, can see no single reason to give a shite...

oh boo hoo the end of the UK - woteva

Sure, but Glasgow is a city - English cities tended to vote remain as well. In the north east in particular, Newcastle was remain (albeit narrowly).

that's frankly the most stupid thing I have heard in some time.  You will find Northern Irish people making insurance companies very annoyed in English cities again.

 

There is a generational thing going on.

Older people - feel British

35 - 60 - UK is an amicable economic partnership.  Indifferent to the British bit.

under 35s - very much pro independence and very much Scottish.

That probably ties back to the war then and close relatives fighting as Team GB

I meant to add a correction to my comment at 16.47 but got interrupted twice.

Anyway, the Spanish foreign minister in 2017 was not Socialist but an Independent MP in Rajoy's PP (conservative) minority coalition government.

Alfonso Dastis (former career diplomat) may have been speaking out of turn, but I doubt it. The fact that he made the comment while part of a PP government suggests the Spanish position is across the board. So rather reinforces my point.

Perhaps if Vox get near government there may be a change in position

 

I'm already a bit sick of sturgeon harping on about mandate when she had less than 50% of the vote. She is happy to ignore the issues of first party the party when it helps her.

As regards political view , the people of Scotland aren't all as left of centre as you or the snp world like you to think. They're are quite a few right learning people who vote snp purely for the independence angle. 

Also as regards immigrants, large parts are indeed pretty white and if you were to speak to my mother from the north east of England she will tell you there is plenty hostility towards English people. So the friendly image isn't entirely true. 

Generally I think that like brexit independence is not a good idea and many of the arguments in its favour are the same as for brexit which is something nats don't like to be reminded of and are largely emotional rather than rational. 

If they went udi even if UK had left EU I still see Spain not being particularly happy. This is not helped by catalan and basque nationalists recently putting out a video of support to Scots nats. 

I get that  Scotland voted firmly to stay in the EU but polls suggest that staying in the union is much more split. And what have we learned about having a broadly evenly split referendum result on a monumentally important and irrevocable issue....?

“She is happy to ignore the issues of first party the party when it helps her.”

 

Shes also perfectly happy to ignore the majority will of the Scottish Assembly when it suits her so any protestations about obedience to democratic mandates are particularly hypocritical, especially when, as you point out, she doesn’t and never has had majority backing of the country.

I haven't read any of the above but presume and hope at least some are calling on the Scottish people to call the SNP to account for their appalling record on actually governing Scotland re: figures on e.g. Scottish education levels falling through the floor since the SNP were in charge of Scottish education. How much further will those education levels fall if Nicola Sturgeon gets her FREEEEEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMMMMMMM?

BC this is what I say to people when in England when they say sturgeon is the most competent, most credible politician going and they would vote for her if they could. I point them to the snp's appalling record when it comes to actually running Scotland and the state of every public service they are responsible for. 

But that’s the fault of the bogeymen in Westminster blindtom

all would be rosy in an independent Scotland, obvs

She is a very capable public speaker / debater, but got eviscerated by Neil on her record.

As Pingu says, devolved public services are a mess. Similar story in Wales, although more extreme. Education and health both bottom of the UK in just about every metric - Labour didn’t get wiped out in North Wales because of Brexit or even Corbyn, it was because the NHS Health Board covering the region has been in special measures for donkeys’ years and Welsh Labour don’t give a shit. 

Bottom line is if there's ever a time in this parliamentary cycle to let the SNP get their way it's now. Make concessions but do it your way not exactly their way 

I met Sturgeon once in a professional capacity, helping her officials on something going through Holyrood. Proper mard she was.

"She is a very capable public speaker / debater"

It's easy to be voluble when you have just one theme:  "Westminster Tories are bad - we want our freedom"

Frankly that's all she says (with that annoying patronising chuckle in her voice that says "that question is so stupid I am laughing at you")

Her response to anything challenging is "but the Tories, we're doing better than England and DESTINY". With that she deflects anything about the state of public services.

Very arguable on the doing better than England point and failing to recognise Scotland gets more funding.